24 hours duty days
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24 hours duty days
Guess the company:
You have been in the hotel now for over three days, (on cold stand by), the next flight has been advised to you as 11am the next morning, the phone rings, urgent the owbner has a new plan you depart NOW.
Only problem, instead of 14 hours to next departure there is 3. This is a problem because you have just finished your second large glass of a rather nice local red wine.
You phone ops and tell them that you have been drinking. They say why, as you are on stand by.
This stand-by if taken to its logical conclusion has been almost 80 hours.
The aircraft is managed and operated by a JAR OPS 1 company, of high standing, and conducts private and charter flights.
Operations tell you, as it is a private flight for the owner, the rules do not apply.
You tell operations that as you understand the OM, you are not under the influence, having only consumed 1/3 of a bottle of rather nice red.
They TELL you to operate the flight,and not to be so stupid.
Apart from constant telephone calls in the previous 12 hours, from operations about other things, you are certainly not rested enough to operate an overnight flight, especially to a potential foggy destination.
Guess the company: (not GAMA), and secondly how would you tell the company to a) establish a policy to enforce allocated rest whilst down line at a remote base, and b) how would you tell operations to grow up and respect JAR OPS1.
If I remember correctly, JAR OPS1 is rather vague as to how to play the problem of: off duty - stand by - on call etc.
Any input welcomed,
SSpoonA
You have been in the hotel now for over three days, (on cold stand by), the next flight has been advised to you as 11am the next morning, the phone rings, urgent the owbner has a new plan you depart NOW.
Only problem, instead of 14 hours to next departure there is 3. This is a problem because you have just finished your second large glass of a rather nice local red wine.
You phone ops and tell them that you have been drinking. They say why, as you are on stand by.
This stand-by if taken to its logical conclusion has been almost 80 hours.
The aircraft is managed and operated by a JAR OPS 1 company, of high standing, and conducts private and charter flights.
Operations tell you, as it is a private flight for the owner, the rules do not apply.
You tell operations that as you understand the OM, you are not under the influence, having only consumed 1/3 of a bottle of rather nice red.
They TELL you to operate the flight,and not to be so stupid.
Apart from constant telephone calls in the previous 12 hours, from operations about other things, you are certainly not rested enough to operate an overnight flight, especially to a potential foggy destination.
Guess the company: (not GAMA), and secondly how would you tell the company to a) establish a policy to enforce allocated rest whilst down line at a remote base, and b) how would you tell operations to grow up and respect JAR OPS1.
If I remember correctly, JAR OPS1 is rather vague as to how to play the problem of: off duty - stand by - on call etc.
Any input welcomed,
SSpoonA
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It can be ANY company doing on demand charter. Therefore, as I mentionned in another thread, since you are "employed" even on stand By you have to refrain from drinking ANY form of alcohol during your (say 15 days) duty time.
It is not very welcoming nor fun, but it is like this.
You have another option : go to airlines...
It is not very welcoming nor fun, but it is like this.
You have another option : go to airlines...
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It's not just about drinking though, is it? As Silverspoon says what about adequate rest?
This is yet another example of why I consider many Corporate operations Gash. The fact that Ops order you to do the flight is nothing short of criminal.
Anyone in any airline I've been in who did that flight would be at best sacked and possibly prosecuted too, along with the ops guy.
This is yet another example of why I consider many Corporate operations Gash. The fact that Ops order you to do the flight is nothing short of criminal.
Anyone in any airline I've been in who did that flight would be at best sacked and possibly prosecuted too, along with the ops guy.
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Wrong end of stick CL300
One of the points I am trying to make is that if your rotation is for example two weeks on one week off, then the company expect you to be on hot stand by for 24 hours a day 14 days.
Is this within the spirit of JAR OPS 1.
It is my understanding of JAR OPS 1, which ALL thse "on demand" operators work, that you can only be on duty 6 days.
Also your duty period per day is limited to a certain number of hours, not unlimited.
I would suggest that a responsable company respects the "regulations", and complies with them at all times.
As an aside is the NET JET drinking thread of a similar vein, or not.
As to joining an airline, do they respect the crew FTL.?
SSa
Is this within the spirit of JAR OPS 1.
It is my understanding of JAR OPS 1, which ALL thse "on demand" operators work, that you can only be on duty 6 days.
Also your duty period per day is limited to a certain number of hours, not unlimited.
I would suggest that a responsable company respects the "regulations", and complies with them at all times.
As an aside is the NET JET drinking thread of a similar vein, or not.
As to joining an airline, do they respect the crew FTL.?
SSa
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As to joining an airline, do they respect the crew FTL.?
I would say generally yes.
I can understand the need to be a bit more flexible in situations like the one described but this 24hr sby business is unacceptable because 1) it's unsafe and 2) It's unreasonable.
If you find a corporate operator who agrees can you give me a call and let me know who it is please !
I would say generally yes.
I can understand the need to be a bit more flexible in situations like the one described but this 24hr sby business is unacceptable because 1) it's unsafe and 2) It's unreasonable.
If you find a corporate operator who agrees can you give me a call and let me know who it is please !
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Well, it all depends which FTL's your company is using.
My previous company was based in the Netherlands, the dutch FTL gives a limit to standby duty. Which made it a (little) bit better.
Best result I've had this far, is discussing the situation with the owner. Most of the owners are unaware of your schedule. But they do realise they put their lives in your hands!
My previous company was based in the Netherlands, the dutch FTL gives a limit to standby duty. Which made it a (little) bit better.
Best result I've had this far, is discussing the situation with the owner. Most of the owners are unaware of your schedule. But they do realise they put their lives in your hands!
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My old company used to have you be "available" to fly...ie you aren't off-duty, not on-duty nor standby as these annoying things have to comply with duty regs... So we ended up hanging around "in limbo" ready to fly with 2 hours notice for weeks on end. The company also got so desperate they told you to count days you didnt fly as days off.
Our so called "safety audit manager" did sod all as he didnt want to lose a comfy salary in a required position with a JAR-OPS 1 AOC company.
Our so called "safety audit manager" did sod all as he didnt want to lose a comfy salary in a required position with a JAR-OPS 1 AOC company.
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forgive a possible stupid question
No copy of Jar Ops 1 or FTL or an OM in the aircraft in question, so resorted to the net to try to obtain the answer to the definitions of duty time, off time and alcohol.
JAR OPS 1.115 defines as follows: under the influence of alcohol.......... but does not define a quantitive limit.
As to duty times, is this defined in JAR OPS1 or the Stae of issues FLT as in the UK CAA CAP 731 (4th).
I just would like a discussion point referenced by the CAA / JAR / EASA/ BBC. to be able to hang a hat on.
SSa
JAR OPS 1.115 defines as follows: under the influence of alcohol.......... but does not define a quantitive limit.
As to duty times, is this defined in JAR OPS1 or the Stae of issues FLT as in the UK CAA CAP 731 (4th).
I just would like a discussion point referenced by the CAA / JAR / EASA/ BBC. to be able to hang a hat on.
SSa
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Stan - the point is that this end of the market has always been the same. Yeah, sure in an ideal world we would all have plenty of standby pilots and aircraft, but in the real world the books need to balance. If they don't, the company goes skint, and everyone loses their job. It is ad hoc, and by it's nature is unpredictable. Traditionally pilots use the corperate and private charter end of aviation to build up their hours and experience and then go to the airlines. In the meantime, the corperate operator has to train up yet more inexperienced crews.
In short, it's a great job to have, but not a career. Most pilots embrace this challenging part of their career, and look back with fond memories. If you have had enough of the uncertainty, then try a scheduled service operator, who will give you a defined roster. It's your choice if you stay.
In short, it's a great job to have, but not a career. Most pilots embrace this challenging part of their career, and look back with fond memories. If you have had enough of the uncertainty, then try a scheduled service operator, who will give you a defined roster. It's your choice if you stay.
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One of the points I am trying to make is that if your rotation is for example two weeks on one week off, then the company expect you to be on hot stand by for 24 hours a day 14 days.
Is this within the spirit of JAR OPS 1.
It is my understanding of JAR OPS 1, which ALL thse "on demand" operators work, that you can only be on duty 6 days.
Also your duty period per day is limited to a certain number of hours, not unlimited.
I would suggest that a responsable company respects the "regulations", and complies with them at all times.
As an aside is the NET JET drinking thread of a similar vein, or not.
As to joining an airline, do they respect the crew FTL.?
SSa
Is this within the spirit of JAR OPS 1.
It is my understanding of JAR OPS 1, which ALL thse "on demand" operators work, that you can only be on duty 6 days.
Also your duty period per day is limited to a certain number of hours, not unlimited.
I would suggest that a responsable company respects the "regulations", and complies with them at all times.
As an aside is the NET JET drinking thread of a similar vein, or not.
As to joining an airline, do they respect the crew FTL.?
SSa
All people joining an on-demand GA type of operation should expect this kind of "fight" with ops. Again as said above, if this is not your cup of tea, be sure that this is not to get any better
.ALL operators are facing the same problems with their crews, it is the essence of this flying; you should enjoy it or pass on...
Companies are respecting their books, but often YOU as a pilot do not know which status you are in, YOU should ask your company, what is your actual status and until when, but if the owner changes his mind, well bad luck, you are not in the proper place.
In a previous life we were circumnavigating the globe eastbound on a 3 weeks on 1 week off roster, not good, not bad, but dump the regs and go private, the owner was nice and we were well treated, but in this today's management, well it is not nice; so cope or run !!!
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weneedpilots
I agree with much of what you say. I did the whole shabang from bush flying in Africa to single crew night freight and on to the airlines and yes as a young guy I couldn't care less about days off and we didn't even have duty hours in SWA. The problem was that I saw this 'grey' approach to FTL's with Flexjet Europe, a supposedly professional operation employing quite a number of experienced pilots from a wide variety of backgrounds, not hour builders.
Getting to the situation described by SSA is one thing but the attitude shown by Ops in 'dealing' with it is another.
Drinking two large glasses of wine then being unexpectedly called out for a night flight I'm afraid there's no way you should operate unless there is a serious threat to life by refusing (not from Operations I hasten to add
).
I wouldn't sit in the back with that crew operating, would you?
I agree with much of what you say. I did the whole shabang from bush flying in Africa to single crew night freight and on to the airlines and yes as a young guy I couldn't care less about days off and we didn't even have duty hours in SWA. The problem was that I saw this 'grey' approach to FTL's with Flexjet Europe, a supposedly professional operation employing quite a number of experienced pilots from a wide variety of backgrounds, not hour builders.
Getting to the situation described by SSA is one thing but the attitude shown by Ops in 'dealing' with it is another.
Drinking two large glasses of wine then being unexpectedly called out for a night flight I'm afraid there's no way you should operate unless there is a serious threat to life by refusing (not from Operations I hasten to add
). I wouldn't sit in the back with that crew operating, would you?
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Stan, I have been in this business for 20 years now. From night freight, airline, brokerage, and now we run a busy AOC operation.
If one of our pilot's had a glass of wine, I would not ask him to fly.......he may very well get a rollicking, but not asked to fly. I do agree with you that some "management" in these companies beggars belief. They seem to have little respect for regulation, and often no idea how to keep an operation running successfully. hence why they normally go bust eventually !
On the flip side, a lot of pilots tend to start quoting the letter of law at management, and tar all with the same brush of incompetence. I am sure you appreciate that rules need bending sometimes, and can be interpreted differently depending on the circumstances at the time. I don't tell a pilot how to fly the aircraft, so don't tell me how to run the business, is how I feel.
Pilot's are like footballers. They are all looking for the next move. I know for a fact that David Beckham once turned out for Preston reserves, probably on a cold tuesday night, against Scunthorpe 3rd's. Bet he wouldn't now !
At the time though, he needed that experience to further his career.
Point is that GA is a stepping stone for pilots, and pilots will drop their current employer in an instant if that better job offer comes. So the Quid pro quo is that GA operators get as much out of these pilots as they can before they leave. As long as everyone knows the score, then no problem.
If one of our pilot's had a glass of wine, I would not ask him to fly.......he may very well get a rollicking, but not asked to fly. I do agree with you that some "management" in these companies beggars belief. They seem to have little respect for regulation, and often no idea how to keep an operation running successfully. hence why they normally go bust eventually !
On the flip side, a lot of pilots tend to start quoting the letter of law at management, and tar all with the same brush of incompetence. I am sure you appreciate that rules need bending sometimes, and can be interpreted differently depending on the circumstances at the time. I don't tell a pilot how to fly the aircraft, so don't tell me how to run the business, is how I feel.
Pilot's are like footballers. They are all looking for the next move. I know for a fact that David Beckham once turned out for Preston reserves, probably on a cold tuesday night, against Scunthorpe 3rd's. Bet he wouldn't now !
At the time though, he needed that experience to further his career.
Point is that GA is a stepping stone for pilots, and pilots will drop their current employer in an instant if that better job offer comes. So the Quid pro quo is that GA operators get as much out of these pilots as they can before they leave. As long as everyone knows the score, then no problem.
The actual law
Stan,
I agree with your first post on this thread and built my first company's reputation by doing so.
Silver spoon,
You refer to JAR-OPS 1 a lot but this documnet has nothing at all to do with your situation. First your Ops should have given you some guidelines. Assuming you are UK based, from your earlier post, you are subject to UK law and the law of the country where you would be taking off from.
CAP 371 is not law, it is only CAA recomendations. Your company Ops Manual part A section 7, the FTL section, becomes legally binding when the AOC is issued, most corporate pilots I know carry an A5 photocopy of this section at all times. The other laws which affect your situation are the UK ANO 2005, which states that no member of the aircraft crew, a licenced mnaintenance engineer or an air traffic controll officer shall be under the influence of drink or drugs to such an extent as to impair their capacity to act. But the ANO does not state a limit.
However section 5 of the railways and trasport safety act 2003, as detailed in FODCOM 28/2003, is now law in the UK and applies to all avition operations. The absolute UK limit is
breath 9 microgrammes alcohol per 100mililiters blood
Blood 20 miligrammes of alcohol per 100 mililitres blood
Urine 27 miligrammes of alcohol per 100 mililitres blood
I believe these are just about the natural levels of alcohol in the average person so it means having nothing to drink at all, not even a sauce on your steak.
All the above data should be be checked against the proper documents before being used in any discussion or other purpose.
But remember you are also subject to the law of the country whos airspace you are in at the time!
If in doubt - don't!!!
Hope this was helpful but please check before relying on anything I have posted.
MM
I agree with your first post on this thread and built my first company's reputation by doing so.
Silver spoon,
You refer to JAR-OPS 1 a lot but this documnet has nothing at all to do with your situation. First your Ops should have given you some guidelines. Assuming you are UK based, from your earlier post, you are subject to UK law and the law of the country where you would be taking off from.
CAP 371 is not law, it is only CAA recomendations. Your company Ops Manual part A section 7, the FTL section, becomes legally binding when the AOC is issued, most corporate pilots I know carry an A5 photocopy of this section at all times. The other laws which affect your situation are the UK ANO 2005, which states that no member of the aircraft crew, a licenced mnaintenance engineer or an air traffic controll officer shall be under the influence of drink or drugs to such an extent as to impair their capacity to act. But the ANO does not state a limit.
However section 5 of the railways and trasport safety act 2003, as detailed in FODCOM 28/2003, is now law in the UK and applies to all avition operations. The absolute UK limit is
breath 9 microgrammes alcohol per 100mililiters blood
Blood 20 miligrammes of alcohol per 100 mililitres blood
Urine 27 miligrammes of alcohol per 100 mililitres blood
I believe these are just about the natural levels of alcohol in the average person so it means having nothing to drink at all, not even a sauce on your steak.
All the above data should be be checked against the proper documents before being used in any discussion or other purpose.
But remember you are also subject to the law of the country whos airspace you are in at the time!
If in doubt - don't!!!
Hope this was helpful but please check before relying on anything I have posted.
MM
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Might not be a particularly popular view, but I was always brought up on Eat/Sleep/Go to the bog When you can . Because you just never know.
Personally I feel its up to you to be rested, nobody else is going to get sleep on your behalf.
Drinking on standby whilst tempting is just crazy, If you have a day off when away then fill your boots. If the call may come - stay out of the bar, go and nap in the room.
The anology being that if you treat every approach as a go around that might manifest itself as a landing, then treat every away standby day as a flying day.
Go and get as pissed as you like on your days off.
Personally I feel its up to you to be rested, nobody else is going to get sleep on your behalf.
Drinking on standby whilst tempting is just crazy, If you have a day off when away then fill your boots. If the call may come - stay out of the bar, go and nap in the room.
The anology being that if you treat every approach as a go around that might manifest itself as a landing, then treat every away standby day as a flying day.
Go and get as pissed as you like on your days off.
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weneedpilots....not sure I agree with some of the things you say. I'm not using GA as a stepping stone to the Airlines, I work for a very respectable company with a good salary, pension, private health etc etc......I fly a nice business jet, stay in nice hotels by the pool for a few days....then tough luck I got to fly that nice plane home and have a 2 days off before...oh no,not again....
I have met several pilots recently who have left respectable Airlines to join the "GA" brigade (Private GV)....that will do nicely thanks very much, so maybe not all are rushing to the Airlines
It all depends on what quality of life one wants, if people don't like hanging around 24/7 (which I don't) then perhaps the Airlines may be a better suit
There are some 
"GA" companies out there but also some very respectable and highly professional ones.
Maybe I'm just lucky.
I have met several pilots recently who have left respectable Airlines to join the "GA" brigade (Private GV)....that will do nicely thanks very much, so maybe not all are rushing to the Airlines
It all depends on what quality of life one wants, if people don't like hanging around 24/7 (which I don't) then perhaps the Airlines may be a better suit
There are some "GA" companies out there but also some very respectable and highly professional ones.Maybe I'm just lucky.
Last edited by 180 Too Fower; 14th Oct 2006 at 13:24.
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I too, have left the airlines for GA. Seems a more rewarding job than the flying the line but perhaps what would be true for most could be that unless you have done the airline thing, you will want to give it a go.
That's where the stepping stone comes into play in my view. I am not that surprised when I hear guys who say... I would like/consider flying the 73/74 etc... With that I agree. Personally I would like to fly all typres there is but I know that it is not so much about what you fly but for whom you fly and what kind of lifestyle/job satisfaction you get.
So yep, go ahead, fly for the airlines but I am pretty sure a good GA outfit can offer a lot more than the average or even above average airline.
GA is a stepping stone for many but don't generalise. It is not always the case regardless of the background.
That's where the stepping stone comes into play in my view. I am not that surprised when I hear guys who say... I would like/consider flying the 73/74 etc... With that I agree. Personally I would like to fly all typres there is but I know that it is not so much about what you fly but for whom you fly and what kind of lifestyle/job satisfaction you get.
So yep, go ahead, fly for the airlines but I am pretty sure a good GA outfit can offer a lot more than the average or even above average airline.
GA is a stepping stone for many but don't generalise. It is not always the case regardless of the background.