Pay Structure (Oz Ag)
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Thanks Angus. I wasn't goint to let this one die just like that either!
This Is now broarding out to a more general debate about Ag flying income. Good because this is one of the biggest issues facing the industry at the moment. It's just that I'm not sure the industry as a whole has realised it yet.
When I first started in the industry in the early eighties Ag drivers were considered to be pretty well paid by people inside and outside of the industry.
I could show you example after example of comparasons of me against friends and family of mine in the yearly income department.
I was way ahead,and life for the future of raising and educating a family and doing pretty well generally was looking good.
As hard as I try now I cannot see that picture. What I find now talking to guys is that they think that they are doing pretty well perticularly when comparing to other jobs in the bush. In that regard they are probably right. But boys the bush is buggered!! If you compare youself now to the wider Australian working community you are in for a big shock. A lawn mower man on the coast is knocking you off and he doesn't have anything like the stress and the risks that we do.
Another way that I kept up with how I was going generally and compared to the wider community was always having a Sydney based accountant. Twenty years ago he said "Agwaggon you are doing very well mate." Ten years ago he said "mate that was ok but you would do better if you had some help from your wife." (income help he ment!) Five years ago he shook his head and said" this is not very good mate".
Those statements are pretty much word for word as I remember them and he was 100% correct.
The bottom line is if you want to make a living this way in the future you better bloody well love it to death, because your not going to make a lot of bugs bunny in it. Thats a pretty hard thing to do after a few years and a few funerals!
I liked Turbo's comments. They are right on the money and very simple logic. The thing is though that Ag pilots are generally in it for the money. There are exceptions sure but as a generalization thats a fact. To expand further they are generally a bunch of money hungry mercenary pricks! And to expand further again do you know what most of the money hungry mercenery ones eventually become ???
Operators ladies and gentlemen!
So whilst Turbo is very right in his thoughts there are precious few of either on either side of the fence.
This Is now broarding out to a more general debate about Ag flying income. Good because this is one of the biggest issues facing the industry at the moment. It's just that I'm not sure the industry as a whole has realised it yet.
When I first started in the industry in the early eighties Ag drivers were considered to be pretty well paid by people inside and outside of the industry.
I could show you example after example of comparasons of me against friends and family of mine in the yearly income department.
I was way ahead,and life for the future of raising and educating a family and doing pretty well generally was looking good.
As hard as I try now I cannot see that picture. What I find now talking to guys is that they think that they are doing pretty well perticularly when comparing to other jobs in the bush. In that regard they are probably right. But boys the bush is buggered!! If you compare youself now to the wider Australian working community you are in for a big shock. A lawn mower man on the coast is knocking you off and he doesn't have anything like the stress and the risks that we do.
Another way that I kept up with how I was going generally and compared to the wider community was always having a Sydney based accountant. Twenty years ago he said "Agwaggon you are doing very well mate." Ten years ago he said "mate that was ok but you would do better if you had some help from your wife." (income help he ment!) Five years ago he shook his head and said" this is not very good mate".
Those statements are pretty much word for word as I remember them and he was 100% correct.
The bottom line is if you want to make a living this way in the future you better bloody well love it to death, because your not going to make a lot of bugs bunny in it. Thats a pretty hard thing to do after a few years and a few funerals!
I liked Turbo's comments. They are right on the money and very simple logic. The thing is though that Ag pilots are generally in it for the money. There are exceptions sure but as a generalization thats a fact. To expand further they are generally a bunch of money hungry mercenary pricks! And to expand further again do you know what most of the money hungry mercenery ones eventually become ???
Operators ladies and gentlemen!
So whilst Turbo is very right in his thoughts there are precious few of either on either side of the fence.
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currawong quote "if the operator goes cheap to try and score more market share, pilot percentage suffers" 
No it does not. You just earn less per hour flown as does the operator. pilot % does not change.
If the market share is taken off a ground rig it is income the pilot would not otherwise have.
No it does not. You just earn less per hour flown as does the operator. pilot % does not change.
If the market share is taken off a ground rig it is income the pilot would not otherwise have.
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Again as a gereralization only, aeroplanes cannot compete with ground rigs so I'ts a pure waste of time even trying. If I was flying in an area where groung rigs were making very serious inroads into the market share then knowing what I know now lads I would look for another area to make a life in.!
And well Nasty yeh maybe your right. But its probably my job now to be that way. When I was a young lad in this business I used to think that most of all the old salts were a bit bitter and twisted as well. Go figure!!
I often do do other things though and that is how I got my head out of the sandpit and saw what was passing us all bye out there.
I can make a couple of very honest personal statements here. Firstly, there does come a time when we have all had enough of something and then It's best to move on. My time is not far away thats true, but i"m not there yet!
Second, this industry is not what it was in many ways in fact in most ways. Some of that is great as the industry was in big trouble there for a while. but some of it is not so great. This is a job that should be very highly paid. and the reality is that it now isn't. If you guys don't believe me then I will dig around and show you those comparisons I was talking about earlier. Believe me they are real.
If you want to do this because you really love it and money is not part of the equation then the holes are starting to line up for you, because that is where things are rapidly moving.
Problem is application prices havn't increased a hell of a lot over the past 25 years or so and the operating costs have what??? And so I think operators are doing things a lot tougher than years ago. Catch 22 hey.
And well Nasty yeh maybe your right. But its probably my job now to be that way. When I was a young lad in this business I used to think that most of all the old salts were a bit bitter and twisted as well. Go figure!!
I often do do other things though and that is how I got my head out of the sandpit and saw what was passing us all bye out there.
I can make a couple of very honest personal statements here. Firstly, there does come a time when we have all had enough of something and then It's best to move on. My time is not far away thats true, but i"m not there yet!
Second, this industry is not what it was in many ways in fact in most ways. Some of that is great as the industry was in big trouble there for a while. but some of it is not so great. This is a job that should be very highly paid. and the reality is that it now isn't. If you guys don't believe me then I will dig around and show you those comparisons I was talking about earlier. Believe me they are real.
If you want to do this because you really love it and money is not part of the equation then the holes are starting to line up for you, because that is where things are rapidly moving.
Problem is application prices havn't increased a hell of a lot over the past 25 years or so and the operating costs have what??? And so I think operators are doing things a lot tougher than years ago. Catch 22 hey.
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Problem is application prices havn't increased a hell of a lot over the past 25 years or so and the operating costs have what??? And so I think operators are doing things a lot tougher than years ago. Catch 22 hey.[/QUOTE]
One of the problems is that commodity prices have not increased over time with say the CPI.
Commodity price will always reflect or use as a base the cheapest countries of production. Some countries will too get rid of their produce subsidise the farmers the difference between the price it can be sold for and the cost of production...and its not just the Yanks...Europe does it for the reasons of a more social outcome, to stop a mass migration from the country to the city because the infrastructure would never handle it...look out Sydney...we are probably our own worst enemy..it p_sses me off when as a gesture to an emerging economy we assist by giving them technoledgy knowing full well in ten or so years because they have a cheaper production cost they will cause us anguist in the world market.
Its no wonder as part of the free trade ageement with the US one of the crucial parts of it was copywrite protection for 25 years.
Unless we protect our knowledge base and stop sharing so freely our technolodgy we will continue to see declining or low based commodity prices and we will continue to see lower potential for profits which in-turn effects the service industry and our personal returns.
A trend towards Global Economy doesn't support Capitalisim.
One of the problems is that commodity prices have not increased over time with say the CPI.
Commodity price will always reflect or use as a base the cheapest countries of production. Some countries will too get rid of their produce subsidise the farmers the difference between the price it can be sold for and the cost of production...and its not just the Yanks...Europe does it for the reasons of a more social outcome, to stop a mass migration from the country to the city because the infrastructure would never handle it...look out Sydney...we are probably our own worst enemy..it p_sses me off when as a gesture to an emerging economy we assist by giving them technoledgy knowing full well in ten or so years because they have a cheaper production cost they will cause us anguist in the world market.
Its no wonder as part of the free trade ageement with the US one of the crucial parts of it was copywrite protection for 25 years.
Unless we protect our knowledge base and stop sharing so freely our technolodgy we will continue to see declining or low based commodity prices and we will continue to see lower potential for profits which in-turn effects the service industry and our personal returns.
A trend towards Global Economy doesn't support Capitalisim.
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Easy CRUZN things arnt that bad !
If you all read the industry web page maybe the contract job except in special cases is out the window
As for being highly paid maybe to act like a complete aviation pro deserves being rewarded as such if not well you know the story its the monkeys and peanuts theory
Time to stop being cropdusters and move on to being proffesional pilots and operators
The time for talking about this is over its ACTION time
Maybe anon forum on the AAAA web would be the way to go?????
If you all read the industry web page maybe the contract job except in special cases is out the window
As for being highly paid maybe to act like a complete aviation pro deserves being rewarded as such if not well you know the story its the monkeys and peanuts theory
Time to stop being cropdusters and move on to being proffesional pilots and operators
The time for talking about this is over its ACTION time
Maybe anon forum on the AAAA web would be the way to go?????
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Originally Posted by biggles190
When the ag pilot standard was introduced it was supposed to be similar to a top airline pilots wages. Some how it did not keep up with the heavy metal wages as it was originay intended. .
Many entry level airline recruits are on very low wages and after all the expense of an atpl and endorsements.
For me the job is about lifestyle, not just pay, and I still consider the total lifestyle package to be good. There are however less jobs at my end of Ag, and I am still Interested in promoting the industry. There are countries where aerial ag has disapeared entirely and the wrong attitude could still see that happen here.
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I take it most full time blokes are happy with what their now on, whilst most contractors aren't real impressed at the prospect of being forced, by way of current tax laws, to accept the casual award. True or false?
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Angus, I think you are getting close to one angle of discontent. So I guess, true.
If a pilot is on full time then he often looks at the peak time as a time when he is maybe a tad under top dollar but the quiter times when he is collecting a retainer for doing pretty much sfa as a evening out time!
Who can quote the Ag one, say 3ooo hrs + pilot retainer is it about $550 or $600 or so?? And also I get the feeling that a lot of operators are paying $1000 per week or so to keep good reliable guys on standby. Is that true? It's not openly talked about at all so this forum could air those things without any backlash against any perticular pilot.
Come on speak up guys. I mean I do know pilots that have been payed that sort of retainer years ago so I'm assuming that it's still common practice now??
Am I right or wrong?
Next is the $149 per day thing against the weekly retainer for the short timers who are asked in to help for a month or so. Is that adequate ?? Expenses to and fro the job??
$550 per week / 7 = $78 per day?? I havn't worked on the award now for many many years so I will need a hand with the correct figures people. But I don't think I'm that far off.
So how much do you guys think that lawn mower man I know on the coast is pulling in a day?
There is a guy pulls up next to my place every now and then and washes my neighbours yapping bloody poodle. I chated him one day, what do you think he pulls in a day?
Ok OK OK I concede. If you want to wash doggies for a living then go and wash doggies for a living. We want to fly that true. But lets bring a little relevance into things.
So are these award rates on or near the money. Especially for seasonal guys??
To all you Aussie Aggies out there I can't think of a better way or place than this anonymous forum to air this one!!
C188
If a pilot is on full time then he often looks at the peak time as a time when he is maybe a tad under top dollar but the quiter times when he is collecting a retainer for doing pretty much sfa as a evening out time!
Who can quote the Ag one, say 3ooo hrs + pilot retainer is it about $550 or $600 or so?? And also I get the feeling that a lot of operators are paying $1000 per week or so to keep good reliable guys on standby. Is that true? It's not openly talked about at all so this forum could air those things without any backlash against any perticular pilot.
Come on speak up guys. I mean I do know pilots that have been payed that sort of retainer years ago so I'm assuming that it's still common practice now??
Am I right or wrong?
Next is the $149 per day thing against the weekly retainer for the short timers who are asked in to help for a month or so. Is that adequate ?? Expenses to and fro the job??
$550 per week / 7 = $78 per day?? I havn't worked on the award now for many many years so I will need a hand with the correct figures people. But I don't think I'm that far off.
So how much do you guys think that lawn mower man I know on the coast is pulling in a day?
There is a guy pulls up next to my place every now and then and washes my neighbours yapping bloody poodle. I chated him one day, what do you think he pulls in a day?
Ok OK OK I concede. If you want to wash doggies for a living then go and wash doggies for a living. We want to fly that true. But lets bring a little relevance into things.
So are these award rates on or near the money. Especially for seasonal guys??
To all you Aussie Aggies out there I can't think of a better way or place than this anonymous forum to air this one!!
C188
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Awards can be viewed here. http://www.wagenet.gov.au/WageNet/Se...32&quickview=Y
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Agwaggon, looks like its just you and I old mate! I hope not...
The figures are close enough. Heres what 5 mins with a brain tells me, using the correct figures:
Casual Award 18%
100hrs/month $17500 $21600
66hrs/month $13100 $14400
33 hrs/month $9000 $7200
Before tax. 10% added to casual award for super. Based on $1200/hr machine. No account made for workers comp. 18% to average out the tight bottoms from the Champions. You know who you are!
It breaks even at around 50hrs/month; if your busy or doing more than $1200/hr the percentage is a long way in front.
If an operator insists on using the casual award I reckon he should consider the following: the operator pays all costs associated with employing (he is now an employee, people) the casual pilot. This includes travel from the employees normal place of residence to the work site and return, suitable accomodation whilst on the job, and per dium (per dium is a living away from home allowance, to cover food and phone calls, comonly paid in industries involving regular travel away from home, provided for under current Australian tax laws as a daily cash payment, fully tax deductible to the employer, currently stands at around $60 - $80 a day).
Tell me I'm wrong. Go on. Do it.
The figures are close enough. Heres what 5 mins with a brain tells me, using the correct figures:
Casual Award 18%
100hrs/month $17500 $21600
66hrs/month $13100 $14400
33 hrs/month $9000 $7200
Before tax. 10% added to casual award for super. Based on $1200/hr machine. No account made for workers comp. 18% to average out the tight bottoms from the Champions. You know who you are!
It breaks even at around 50hrs/month; if your busy or doing more than $1200/hr the percentage is a long way in front.
If an operator insists on using the casual award I reckon he should consider the following: the operator pays all costs associated with employing (he is now an employee, people) the casual pilot. This includes travel from the employees normal place of residence to the work site and return, suitable accomodation whilst on the job, and per dium (per dium is a living away from home allowance, to cover food and phone calls, comonly paid in industries involving regular travel away from home, provided for under current Australian tax laws as a daily cash payment, fully tax deductible to the employer, currently stands at around $60 - $80 a day).
Tell me I'm wrong. Go on. Do it.
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Thanks Angus.
Well I guess that means that if we were to ease away from contract rates because of all the previous reasons stated here, then I for one am not even slightly interested in $149 per day.
I think about 230-250 would be closer to the mark and thats every day your there if you come in as a casual. Of course operators will then insist to putting us on the full time rate I guess.
Angus and I can't be the only two in OZ interisted in this surely guys.
Well I guess that means that if we were to ease away from contract rates because of all the previous reasons stated here, then I for one am not even slightly interested in $149 per day.
I think about 230-250 would be closer to the mark and thats every day your there if you come in as a casual. Of course operators will then insist to putting us on the full time rate I guess.
Angus and I can't be the only two in OZ interisted in this surely guys.
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Interesting points of view on the pros and cons of contract v fulltime.One of the reasons i went from fulltime to contract was that i got sick of the retainer being seen as wages for which a 40hr week was expected. And with the award at the time being just over the $450 a week dirty and a short season area it was financially a wast of time especially in that i was stuck not able to take other better paying work locally out of season.
