Select & Select Star crews?
 

Was recently re-reading Andrew Brookes's 1982 book on the V-force. There's a passing reference to 'Select' and 'Select Star' crews, but nothing about what these were. Anyone care to elucidate, assuming the answer isn't classified?

John

Whilst I'm sure that 'flatiron' will have the definitive answer, as far as I'm aware it was just normal crew categorisation. Which later became 'Operational', 'Combat', 'Senior' and 'Command'. Not quite the same as D Cat, C Cat, B Cat and A Cat in other forces; for example, those applied to individuals in the AT/AAR world, whereas the whole crew had to qualify in the V-force.

As Beags said, the old cats were virtuallt similar to the Operational, Combat, Senior and Command with one important difference. Command was only awarded by the GSU and originally very sparingly. It was not normal to have a Command crew on a sqn.

The earlier scheme, which I think mirrored SAC, was Combat, Combat Star, Select and Select Star. Progression was on both time and merit. It was unusual not to advance one category every 6 months.

On joining the sqn you were rushed through to what is now limited op. This meant you could hold QRA. At this stage we did not do a low-level conversion, that came later. Indeed in 1964 we were not allowed to practise the pop-up 2E attack. We would navigate to the pull-up point but not do the pop. This was possibly because of noise constraints but also the potential mayhem of a 350k/10,000 foot per minute climb over Newcastle.

The key to advancement was the number and accuracy of attacks. In other words the Nav radar held the key to the crew getting better classification.

From dim memory to get Combat you needed something like 3 out of 5 2/2B attacks within about 600 yards. Then 8 out of 10 2A within 1,400 yards and two single 1,000lb HES, one within 1,100 yards and one within 1,300 yards. These are all rough guesses. A Combat crew was supposed to fly about 32 hours per month.

At the other end of the scale the Select Star crew had to get 2 x 2/2B attacks withing 400 yards, 6 out of 8 2A within 1,000 yds etc. This was to be achieved with only 24 hours per month.

Then the 2/3 day rangers to Norway were intended for the Combat crew whereas the Western and Goose Rangers were intended for the Select and Select Star crews with the Combat Star crews getting the Med Rangers. At least that was the plan.

We reached Select Star in Dec 65 after 18 months on the Sqn. The following 6 months was as follows:
Jan 4 trips including one Groupex and 2 Kinsman.
Feb 9 trips including 2 exercises, 2 training sorties and and 5 ranger flights.
Mar was 5 flights including a delivery flight and 2 exercises.
Apr 4 flights including a Ex Coop over France. We clocked 420 k at ll over the target.
May 6 flights 4 were on a Western Ranger
Jun was 3 flights all in UK and no exercises.
In all 131 hours and 9 out of 31 flights were overseas and 5 flights were air tests or delivery.
In contrast we flew 155 hours as a Combat Star crew with only 4 overseas flight.

Beags

Not sure it was quite so gentlemanly in the 60's when we had the deterrent.

Pontius

I can confirm your sequence Combat, Combat Star, Select and Select Star but we did low level and 2E pop ups as Combat. Not over Newcastle but Walney Island.

ACW

ACW, later certainly. At first however we had 3 routes and the one into Newcastle used Ouston Bombplot. There was no bomb plot at Walney Island which would have been a bit too close for Amber 1. Are you sure you didn't mean Luce Bay and West Freugh?

I can still remember the phone number:

'Stranraer 2501'

to which the reply was '76'

followed by the patter of the intended attack profile.

More frequently however after '76' we got "This is Stranraer 2502"

I don't know how many times the operator put me through to this old dear. She always sounded surprised and NEVER ever was she angry.

Pontius,

Like most people my memory isn't what it was but I recall flying low level starting at Lundy Island and going up through Wales coasting out between Llandudno and Colwyn Bay and over the sea to Walney Island. Don't know about Amber 1 but we used to pop up to 11,000 ft and had about 10 seconds to get sorted out before dropping the bomb. Was that a 2E or was it something else? There was a 2A which involved several 90 degree turns and much swearing from the plotter but this was at high level. Never did Stranraer or West Freugh as far as I can remember.

ACW

I seem to remember using West Freugh for Blue Steel free fall release practice, along with Gernish... 2H?

ACW, you are right about the low level. I saw surprised to see in my log book that I flew Bomber Command Routes 21, 23 and 24 in 1964 but by 1965 we moved in to the UK Low Level Route. My last Bomber Coomand low level was BC/21/R followed by BC/23/R with just one RBS attack.

From this I guess 21 was the west coast and 23 the esat coast terminating at Newcastle for a 2E.

Looking on I see we did a route from EP1 on the south coast to the Ouston Gate. If memory serves, there was a short cut across the north of England.

Moving on, Gernish bombplot was, I seem to remember, the relocated MRBSU from Glasgow. Lovely spot :( . Hated the targets there, one bit of rock always looked like another.

Most of the complaints about the UK LL route seemed to come from Garforth as the route was squeezed in between Leeds and the Vale of York airfields.

Ahhh - happy days!

Gazman - Frank Clapp
 

Gazman,

Frank Clapp was the pilot of a 213 Sqn Canberra B(I) 6 which crashed near Roermond in 65 or 66 (I am fairly sure of the year, but could confirm it). His navs were Dai Dingle and Joe Sime.

The causes of the crash could be debated, but no blame should be ascribed to the crew whatever, believe me please.

They were, each one of them, fine officers and very fine men. I was very fond of Dai in particular.

The crash came a few years after a 213 midair, in the early sixties, when two aircraft and, I think, five men were lost.

If you PM me with your private e-mail address and convince me you are who you say you are, I can tell you more.

oTd

Nice V-Force feature (5pgs) in the March Aeroplane. Your first name wouldn't be Roy would it Pontius?:)

Vulcan News
 

Reading through these fascinating recollections - would any of you ex-Vulcan crew care to contribute to the Vulcan Restoration Trust's magazine, Vulcan News? As I'm sure you all know, the VRT owns and preserves XL426 in taxiing condition at Southend Airport.

http://www.duperock.com/VulcanNewsCover.jpg

Vulcan News is a high quality, glossy, black and white, professionally produced magazine and over the past thirteen years since I have been editing it we have had contributions from: John Reeve, Dave Moore, Peter West, Joe L'Estrange, Alun Morgan, Don Briggs, Alan Painter, Ed Jarron, Jon Tye, John Farley (who flew the Vulcan on Concorde Take-Off Director trials) and countless others.

If you would like to PM me or email me, I would be delighted to hear from you.

Dave Griffiths
Trustee - Vulcan Restoration Trust
Editor - Vulcan News

Hi

I was just wondering if any ex-V bomber crew could tell me what the "get you home" plans were if it all went pete tong (wrong) and you did have to fly the Nuclear attack mission? Presumably you were given options?

Not a nice thought, i know, but the fact were still here proves that deterrence (at least on this scale) works.

remember seeing a Vulcan take off at Leeming Open day in 91 or 92. Was only about 8 or 9 at the time and it was that more than anything else that cemented my desire to fly, to be able to take something with so much brute powere it made every bone, every sinew in your body vibrate with the noise of a thousand wild horses, to be at the head of that would be some feeling.

Matty

(in an unusually poetic mode - have to go down the pub to calm down)

Gainsey, no idea what you are talking about. Spotters mag? See PM.

MMMatty see your PM too.

MMEMatty,

I started a thread on the 'What happens post visit to Ivan' subject but can't find it despite searching for the last twenty minutes.

Basicially, IIRC from the responses to my thread there wasn't really a plan to come home, maybe land in a neutral country (god knows what that would achieve) or in one case throw the aircraft (and crew) at a target of some sort (bridge/power station/etc etc)

Hopefully the chaps in the know can expand... Please ? :ok:

One out, all out
 

Paracabs Link

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=111657

Imagegear
:ok:

Vulcan News see PM.

MMEMatty amplified his question about what happened afterwards and this will explain some of it. All the V-bomber flights were fully planned ie from take-off to recovery. In the 70s there was a change of policy and this was not received without argument. From this we can deduce that the crews were all Supermen and DID expect to survive.

The early plans called for some 150 odd V\'s, 1,500 odd B47s and 600 odd B52s not to mention B58s and sundry others. The rockets would have got in first although not in the numbers as inthe later 60s. By the mid-60s the B47s had gone to be replaced by more rockets.

We were certainly on the side of the big battalions.

Fully planned also meant taking the shortest way out. For the deep penetration sorties after a 300 mile plus low level penetration we certainly did not have the fuel to get to UK nor would we want to flying back through the devastation we had just wrought. We planned to get back to our designated friendly country and then try and find somewhere to land.

Did we plan to rearm and reattack? All I can say here is a \'possibly\' and then only in the early days when we might have had more bombs than jets and the Sooviet threat was not fully developed. As the number of bombers built up it was pretty close to 1+1. Not only that but the Soviet threat had also become one of MAD so it was extremely unlikely that we could have launched reattacks.

Plan Dropshot, edited by Anthony Cave-Brown is the US War Plans in 1947 for war in 1957. It makes fascinating reading especially the bits where they postulate what the UK will provide. What makes this so interesting is that it exactly mirrors the later deployment on the V-Force and Canberras - Malta, Cyprus, Singapore as well as UK and this long before the UK had even - in Secret - decided to develop the bomb. This book was printed in the 70s.

Vulcan Flight Controls

During flight testing of the Vulcan, when ever I wanted precise control over pitch I found that this could be enhanced by using the fingertips of the left hand positioned around the pilot's control rod/tube where it went through the instrument panel. All small stick movements could thereby be more closely monitored by means of this additional feedback loop.

Did any other Vulcan pilots use this technique ??

Of course this raises the question as to the optimum relationship between stick movement and stick force which is best for us humans in our quest for our 'holy grail' -- the ultimate in control feel throughout the flight envelope.

Cold War History
 

Please accept my appologies if the following is included in the multitude of posts on this topic. May I draw attention to a recent publication by English Heritage?

Wayne D Cocroft & Roger J C Thomas ; PS Barnwell (Ed): Cold War: Building for Nuclear Confrontation 1946-1989. English Heritage 2003. ISBN1 873592 69 8.

This is a fascinating account on the construction of Air Defence Radars, V force airfields, Special Storage areas &c, &c - great for nuclear spotters! Has lots of great pictures and drawings, assembled with the help of th Air Historical Branch.

CC

Has anyone details of the second Vulcan to New Zealand which impacted the embankment when landing at the official opening of Wellington Airport?

The reason I ask is because I was involved with the running of the Air Show, and as a result was first to the scene, complete with RAF Engineering Officers, and the senior detachment commander.

The comments regarding the skills, or lack thereof, of the PinC were enlightening.

Rumour had it that following a ground posting as a Wing Commander, said pilot became a Victor Squadron Commander, and was involved with a fatal crash at Malta, also the result of under-shooting.

Had a chat with a publisher today.

Without wishing to commit himself to the project without seeing a proposal (sensibly enough!) he is interested in the idea of producing something that collects together the experiences of those involved in the V-Force, or possibly on a wider basis.

I shall put a proposal together over the next few days for the publisher to look at (and as he's a good sort, if not for him, he'll suggest other options). If all goes well, I may be putting out an appeal for more assistance (and thanks to those who have offered already) so that I can build on the thread and move forwards.

Will report on progress as it develops.

On the best advice tips I was minded to remember why u/s kit never gets better once you are airborne. The short story concerns a ranger return from El Adem.

As we started to come off cocks the H2S went TU. Big bloom and no picture. Classic fault and clearly identifiable as a fuse in panel 11P under the nav table. In flight it would involve sliding across the entrance door, without a parachute, opening the panel with about 75 million screws, counting fuses and then pulling the u/s one. We were on the ground so we opened the door instead and I stood on the ladder. 30+ degrees, howling gale under the jet and 4 donks roaring away. And the periscope heater was on. After about 10 minutes I gave up and we pressed on without the radar.

Then the TACAN failed. The ADF didn't work which was SOP and before we got to Nice the old Green Satin stopped working.

So far so good but once we got to Lyon there was solid cloud cover so we were down to DR through the French airways. Near Paris we were cleared direct Midville (?). Then we spotted a cranberry. Easy peasy and we latched on to follow him.

Slowly we over took him only to watch him, in turn follow us.

Once back in UK the radar service took us home.

Beags Just received the XH 558 newsletter.I like the idea of sponsoring/buying a bit of history to get the old girl flying again.Hope it will raise a lot of money for a very good cause.
However there is one question I have to something I have been pondering on since Monday when the letter came.

Why do I have to shell out £1000 for something you peed down but only £50 for one that a guy who did all the number crunching and told you which way to go home?
Or is it yours isn't as worn?

:ok: :ok:

Good luck all with the fund raising.I shall hopefully get something worthwhile.

Yes - is indeed excellent news! I recived my newsletter yesterday but as I'm laid low with 'flu haven't really studied it in any depth yet.

Pee-tubes? Horrible bloody things! Never used one myself; we would all pee over the corner of the crew chief's hut immediately before getting aboard our tin triangle!

Shall have a go at the Jaguar raffle - and might 'buy' something as well!

And Dave Thomas, if you need another pilot, check your logbook for 30 Aug 1977! I have a current ATPL with a lapsed VC10/IR but no current Type Rating - just SEP Class Rating, IMC and FI Ratings. Around 6000 hours on 4-jets, 4000 as captain and 2500 as QFI!

Fat chance, I guess. Still, one can always dream!

Can any old Vulcan crew at there from the late 60’s care to put an end to a 35-year-old mystery for me?

The Tin-Triangle will always be a bit special to me as it was the first RAF aircraft that I can remember seeing as a young awestruck child. Being born and brought up under the flightpath of Heathrow’s R23, I had developed an interest in things aviation, but the daily sight of 707’s, Trident’s, Caravelle’s and the odd BEA’whistling-tit’, was nothing compared to this first exposure to a Vulcan at close range.

So, this was back in 1969 or possibly 1970, and we had a family holiday at a caravan site, perched on the side of a hill, just inland from Swanage and overlooking Swanage Bay. Looking at a map today I’m guessing the caravan site was on the south-eastern downslope of Nine Barrow Down.

Thus the highlight of this holiday for me, was the daily and frequent almighty roar as a Vulcan at very low level appeared from behind this hill (coming from the direction of Newton Heath and Poole harbour) and heading out to sea over Swanage Bay. They always appeared from the same direction and I seem to remember ending up spending the whole holiday sitting outside the caravan listening for ‘the noise’ and then waiting for them to appear over the hill top.

For 35 years now I’ve always wondered what Vulcan’s were doing in that neck of the woods, can any old Vulcan aircrew enlighten me?

Not sure that I like the phrase "old Vulcan aircrew from the late 60s", so as slightly younger Vulcan aircrew from the late 70s here goes:
At the time low flying in the UK was confined to a system of areas and link routes joining up the areas. Probably because the lookout from a Vulcan cockpit was so poor, the tin triangle was not allowed into the areas where "see and be seen" was the only protection. Therefore we were confined to a relatively narrow link route (3 miles wide was it, or 5?) That started on the South coast and went clockwise around the UK ending up in the Wash bombing ranges. It had various entry points and you booked in with times at the EPs. I would guess that your caravan site was about on the centreline of that route.

Oooops.....:O

Sorry, I should have said any ex-Vulcan aircrew, as I meant 'old' in a figurative meaning, in the same way my Dad was always an old 'sapper' to me, rather than an ex-sapper.

Anyway, thanks for that info, that Vulcan noise that week was the best morning alarm call I ever had as a kid.......:cool:

The old main route was only 3 miles wide until the LFS was overhauled in the late 70s. I've flown the bit past Brownsea Island and then across the South West a few times. There were better bits; Catcleugh resevoir required a post attack 120 deg wingover to avoid going outside the route if you wanted a good release point piccie. J-count bait, as they say!

We once had a notice at Scampton asking people to avoid some particular part of the route as it went over a Welsh steelworks and the sound of the Vulcan at low level was similar to the noise made by one of their furnaces going critical!

Mind you, others couldn't complain. After the route was widened, we used to use the corner of a large white building on a disused aerodrome on the Devon/Somerset border as an IP for all our visual targets in that neck of the woods. Why no complaints? Well, the site was euphemistically titled a 'Government Radio Station' - perhaps beaming messages to Our Man in Moscow?

As a teenager on CCF (Grunt section) camp in the mid-60s on Exmoor, I too would listen for the roar and wave as a Vulcan went over at 300 ft. The local bullocks didn't bat an eyelid - so I've never to this day believed any of those "Moy beasts bay'nt milkin'" low flying claims from Farmer Chancer to this day! Not surprising they were so desensitised with Vulcans, Hunter, Gnats, Sea Vixens and other paying almost hourly visits!


And yes - I know you can't milk a bullock. Well, you can try but it will probably enjoy the experience more than you will!

The STC LL route was not just confined to south coast to the Wash areas. It used to go round the whole UK, and had cross links at various places. Latterly, they used to reverse the direction of flow from anti-clockwise to clockwise and back again - on the grounds that crews became too familiar with the route when it was permanently anti-clockwise.

Crew lockers were groaning under the weight of target maps!

Boscombe Down to Lyme Bay.

During the late 50s I wore a Vulcan groove from BD to Lyme Bay, between Torquay and Weymouth, to drop a huge number of inert weapons. Purpose was to ensure safe separations from the weapon bay and no jostling together after release.

Most separations were clean with few exceptions.

CG variations with some of the sequences of releases were a continuing hazard in hiding.

My old headmaster at comprehensive school said he flew Vulcans, his name was D.J.Parsons, anyone know of him ?? One of the last of my teachers who advocated caning, we were all very well behaved after we found out....

Vulcan XL360
 

XL360
Hello all you military type's, I know I shouldn't be here but I have a question that has been making me itch for some time now.
I see this aircraft every time I go into Fly at Baginton and have become very interested in her.

My father was in the RAF in the late forties and early fifties being based in Ceylon, Singapore and other places in the far east
As a small boy my father used to take me to RAF Gaydon to the open days and airshows I can well remember seeing Vulcans, Victors, Phantoms and English Electric Lightnings I keenly remember one Lightning pilot stood it on it's tail and just climbed vertically with full afterburn on,- it shook the entire airfield!!.
So- are there any of the aircrew or ground crew still around for this lovely old lady??, it looks to be in good condidion to me but I am not a jet pilot.
Where was she based?, what did she do?, what memories are there of her??.
It would be great to hear from her crew rather than reading a placard on a stand in front of her. To find out a little of the history of such an aircraft and her crew from the people who flew her.
I hope you don't mind but I am just interested, tell me to bugger off back to rotorheads if I have upset anybody.
Micky:ok: :ok:

Although not necessarily specific to XL360, suggest you have a look at the Did you fly the Vulcan? thread if you've not done so already.

There's a fair chance that someone who flew XL360 will pass by here too...

Herr Beagle would appear to have graced the inside of this old lady. Pull up a sandbag
Read through the whole thread if you want the inside info on being Vulcan crew.

XL360 was a 35 Sqn a/c in the mid-to-late 1970s... Based at sunny Scampton, Lincs.

I first flew 360 on 6 Jul 78, doing a Basic Training Requirements trip. High level sector, some low level plus a few targets, then a few circuits. Then we took her to Luqa, Malta for Ex Solar Flare on 1 Aug 78, flying both Italian low level routes and MRR. It was on that detachment when we were bounced by the Italian QRA force when our plotter turned us ito Italian airspace from down near Libya.... The Capt thought the Italian F-104s were Gaddafi's Floggers!

We took XL360 to Akrotiri in Apr 1979 for 6 days MRR boredom. On the 9th we had to shut an engine down (gauge failure i.a.w. SOPs), then came home on the 10th.

The last time I flew XL360 was:

14 May 1979 Vulcan B2 XL360 Exercise Double Top 1979, Phase 1 Bombing section. 2:00 Day 1st pilot, 1:55 Day 2nd pilot.

We achieved the highest 35 Sqn score. Then went to Double Top Trg Flt and on 26 June 1979 achieved the highest scoring individual competition sortie for any RAF or SAC crew. But that was in XL443.

Hope the old lady is keeping well!

Hello BEagle,
she looks well to me , but as I say I am not a jet pilot, I fly helo's and piston ones at that, unless my mucker let's me loose in his Hughes 500.
I think the Midland Air Museum take care of all of their exhibits and plan to take a good look round when the weather is more suited to spending hours looking at aircraft
I looked at the other threads, -do the Wellesbourne folk's fire theirs up very often?? I'd have to fly over for that!!- what a sound, absolutely stunning.
Micky:ok: :ok:

XM655 at Wellesbourne Mountford is being used as a systems refresher vehicle for the team restoring XH558 to flying status at Bruntingthorpe. There will be several EGRs and the odd taxying session during the summer at Wellesbourne; next EGR is planned for 16 Apr 05 at 1330.

See http://www.xm655.com/

I won't miss that!!
Cheers
Micky:ok:

Last flew in 360 on 30 Dec 1971. It was a Group Standardisation Unit trip. Flt Lt Hainsworth was the captain with Sqn Ldr Glen Whitelam as co, Flt Lt Brian Drake AEO, and Flt Lt 'Sleepy Bear' Bussereau as Nav Radar/Plotter. I took up the spare Plotter seat. We did 3 x Radar Bomb Score runs, some high speed runs, a practice diversion into Leuchars, some asymmetric general handling then a return to Scampton where we did 6 rollers before final landing. 3 hours 30 minutes day and 55 minutes night.


all right - I'll get me anorak!

I've serviced her (oh young man!!).

Went into the cockpit of 360 a couple of months ago, ahhhh, memories.