When the 'wrap around' camouflage first came in, we were at Goose Bay (Dec 78) in an older beast (XM571) whilst a QFI crew from another Vulcan squadron were there with a new style 'wraparound' cammed a/c. We had to fly in loose formation so that various piccies could be taken to compare the conspicuity of the 2 schemes.

This included being required to go past 'the hill' at low level so that a photographer perched on top could snap 'top side' views. An opportunity not be missed, we thundered past and wired Goose nice and low - but then had to repeat it as the photographer wasn't ready!

Never did see the piccies - but I gather they were rather good! The decision was made to repaint all Vulcans as they came out of major servicing - but their days were sadly numbered by then.

Had to stay for a further week at Goose with an irritating mainwheel light which persisted in staying red on retraction and didn't get home until 15 Dec. But that very nice chap Chris Lumb invited us all to the unit Christmas party down in Herb's Hall - and that was a most excellent night!

What a shame that all the fun at Goose was stamped out a few years later when plod descended on the place after it was noted that there were a few alleged duty-free irregularities going on. The barbecue pit outside the OM went, no more getting steaks and salad sent up from Herb's and cooking them yourself around the barbi'... "Fire hazard", some boring jobsworth had called it....

BEagle

Your wish....

XM571 7 Dec 78
http://www.avrovulcan.org.uk/crown_c...mouflage_1.jpg
photographed from the F95 of XM603 (Sqn Ldr Turnbull) 50 Sqn
http://www.avrovulcan.org.uk/crown_c...camouflage.jpg

See the bottom of the menu at http://www.avrovulcan.org.uk/crown_copyright/index.htm

These were the best of the images in the selection I saw. The others were just too far away.

Yes - that was me flying XM571 on 7 Dec. Memory fade - the idea was to confirm whether the existing camouflage needed to be replaced after the Red Flag experience. I thought that Tim's crew had one of the new jets - clearly they didn't!

Tim and his snapper manouevred about above us to get the verticals; the look-down shot of XM603 was indeed taken from the Melville Radar hill (although we both flew past it, if I recall correctly!).

I always thought that the famous 'spot the Vulcan' photo was of us - thanks for having confirmed it for me after all these years. I now have a new computer desktop!!

BEagle

My only association with the Vulcan was as a happy airshow goer but your mention of aircraft with Giant Voice markings rang bells. These are taken from some very old Agfa slides which don't carry dates but I believe may well have been taken at Abingdon in September 1979.

http://members.lycos.co.uk/rhino11/r...6_greenham.jpg
http://members.lycos.co.uk/rhino11/r...e_greenham.jpg

A 617th Bombardment Sqn jet...

Back in the days when we had a reasonable sized air force, and Abingdon wasn't infested with green lorries:{

....and the sun always shone!

It is with deep regret that I have to inform you that Jimmy (NBS) Miller passed away quietly at home about 3 weeks ago.

Those of you who remember him will agree that he was a true gentleman. Sad loss for Ada and the family.

RIP Jimmy - I'll miss you.

FJJP

LIQUIDS ON THE ENTRANCE DOOR SEAL
 

Just read the posting about the pee tube and its effect on the door seal. When I was an SAC on 1 GSU I had the opportunity to go on a few high level Vulcan flights with the guys. I was normally give the job of hauling the ration box from the crew bus to the aircraft and lugging it up the entrance ladder. On one trip(can't really place the airframe number but possibly XH538) I was asked to pass up a carton of milk from the box to the pilot (Wg Cdr Morgan if my memory serves me right). Of course he asked for it to be opened. Ever tried opening a carton of milk with flying gloves, a bum parachute and all the rest of the gear in a totally black lower Vulcan cockpit at the same time as you suddenly hit turbulence? You guessed it. Half of it spilt.

The weather was cold and the spilt milk did not have chance to defrost from around the door seal where it had bottomed out. When the crew chief tried to open the door back on the pan at Scampton it wouldn't budge. An attempt was then made to open the door from inside - no joy. After a brief consultation with the crew chief it was decided to blow the door open on emergency override. As it smacked down on to its jacks I (sitting in the 6th seat) saw the shards of frozen milk dissipate onto the pan backlit by the sodium lights. The aircraft was tech for some considerable time while it had the door jacks replaced.

I'm much older, wiser and, as a pilot now, very much aware of flight safety. I learnt about flying from that!

Without wanting to name names... can someone enlighten me the truthfullness of a Waddington Vulcan "attacking" a camel train in the early 70's?

The story as I heard it was; whilst over flying a desert, a bored pilot spotted the camel train and decided to dive on it - a number of times. When they finally departed the camels were running in all directions. I got the story from his son (the pilot is now sadly deceased) when I asked YWIW senior about this incident he declared "lost memory".

We did not go round again. Not fair and no fun.

Over Libya we used to launch about 0800 local so as to complete the low levels before it got too hot and turbulent. Quite strange really flying over the 'merciless heat of the desert' actually under 8/8 stratus.

Really there were no rules. One, BC/Lib/21 Reversed and extended was a real ball melter. Take-off from El Adam, transit at about 400 to some point in the sand about 600 miles west and to the south of Tripoli, descend to low level and vainly try and get back before we were cooked.

Miles and miles of rolling sand and absolutely nothing to see. Nothing visual that is. As a radar op we were looking for ill defined sand dunes, wadis etc where JARIC had calculated a radar significant feature, fix and on for the next 60 miles to the next fix point. Then we might see footprints.

Minutes later a camel train would appear plodding slowly across the featureless terrain. Down we would go and try and thread the eye with the needle. The AEO would watch through the periscope. Never any complaints as far as I know. No phones!

How do you include pix with a posting? I've got an absolute magic one of XL 427 doing some 'low level bombing' at Macrihanish which deserves a much wider audience.

Picking up on some earlier parts of the thread:

The list of casualties doesn't seem to include the one at Finningley which tucked its wheels up when No 3 was fired up. It very ably demonstrated the frangible qualities of the nose/cockpit pressure hull/rest of the airframe. I remember watching it from the picture windows of ECMSDF on the top storey of the Electronics Block. Seem to remember that the crew exited by sliding over the windscreen down the nose and off the end of the refuelling probe and then high tailing it towards the armoury. I think the Crew Chief also had a narrow escape by being pinned under the wing.

I also remember doing a trip to check out the 301 series engines, possibly XL 360 or XL 318 in 1971/72 (memory not too good after 30 odd years and the log book isn't very helpful). It was a 1GSU crew and, if my memory serves me right, had only one 301 engine in. Somewhere over the North Sea off Newcastle the other 3 were spooled back to flight idle and the 301 was given full belt. I can remember that the pilot (Wg Cdr Morgan or Flt Lt Hainsworth) had to throttle back to avoid going over the limiting Mach Number.

Allan907 - only one 301? I suspect that's incorrect. There was substantial modification to the airframe and systems to install the 301 series. Sure it wasn't an airtest following an engine change?

You're right about the need to watch the speed, though. At light weights, even at high level, it was only too easly to exceed limiting Mach no. On a GSU checkride with J le B on a high speed run, the Mach no jumped instantaneously from .93 to .96imn. We conclude that we flew through a pocket of air at a substanially different temp to the surrounding. The pitot static system was checked and fully serviceable. Spectacularily big anti-climax - the lady behaved perfectly!

allan907
 

You can't upload images to PPRuNe. To get round it, you have to upload the image to a web location and then use the [IMG] button to link to it.

But since you kindly forwarded me a copy of that photo this morning, I'll gladly show it here using the above technique:

http://www.avrovulcan.org.uk/misc/427_mach2.jpg

Sequence - Before - During - After

The only Vulcan to fly with 3 x 200-series and 1 x 301 was XH557 doing development flying from Filton. It was the 11th B2 and the first with the larger intake. It later received a second 301 to test the common intake. Later still, it received 4 x 301s and ended up in squadron service. It was the only 'XH' 301 a/c.

Libyan LLs
 

Pontius Nav

In my day we used to fly the Libyan routes during rangers to Luqa. They often finished with a practise bomb on the El Adem range. They had, if I remember, some radar markers out to give the NavRads a release offset. One bright spark was not content with these so used one of the buildings at the airfiled as his offset. Then he forgot to switch in the offset and scored a DH with a hundred pounder on a barrack block. Luckily no one was at home! :O

Flaterus Veteranus, I suspect he hit the RANGE domestic site not the airfield, but I could be wrong. I make that assertion as the NEAF Range Orders specifically stated that the domestic site could be confused with No 1 Radar target.

One of our navs (12 Sqn) I think dropped a stick of 3 outside the NAAFI.

Regarding Luqa, I did my fair share of Luqa Rangers but also El Adem. For some reason the senior officers tended to go to Luqa and Akrotiri <vbg>.

The photo of 427 is definitiely not the one that had the undercarriage collapse at Finningley. In this photo we can see there is no fin fairing, the tbc comartment is empty, there is a hatch at the side of the nose open and all the control surfaces and airbrakes are everywhere.

The photo looks very much like it has just had its undercarriage surgically removed by the bomb squad.

Finally, as Kim Bunting, the plotter, slide down the nose as stated, how did he do so with the lid in place? Final point, Vulcans did not sport fin badges in the 60s; 427 is sporting a Lincoln badge.

Now THAT is a fake photograph. Without any doubt whatsovever.

1. 427 is clearly a derelict sitting on its undercarriage [with the gear painted out by software].

2. The reflections in the water are more like NY harbour reflecting skyscraper buildings.

3. If you study 427 and compare it directly with another ac on its gear, 427 appears to be too far off the ground.

4. The explosive flash and smoke are not accurately reflected in the water.

And I could go on to discuss other aspects of the photo, but a waste of time.

If the author is going to fake something and make it look authentic, more practice is needed...

I didn't say that the photo of 427 was the one that collapsed at Finningley. That happened in the mid 60s (1966?) and the photo of 427 was taken in 1982 when it was moved up to the fire dump at Macrihanish.

With the Finningley crunch just think about it... of course the canopy was jettisoned before the crew exited. With the crew entrance door on the floor and unable to be opened how else do you think the crew got out? Photos appearing in Air Clues and the Accident Report clearly show the wreck minus canopy which is lying off to the side.

I watched the whole thing from start to finish and couldn't believe what was happening. The Crew Chief was underneath the wing on the mic/tel lead when the mains started folding up and the aircraft started settling on its backside. He ran directly forward. The nose u/c wasn't far behind and the aircraft then started to slide forward to even out. With a rapidly lowering forward engine bay and intakes coming down on top of him the Chief decided to exit sideways - just in time! I seem to remember from the Accident Report that the whole thing was caused by a faulty microswitch.

And NO the photo of 427 is NOT a fake. I have one of the originals complete with neg no and crown copyright on the back. The shot is obviously a long shot (safety distance) and the reflections are from the main runway (probably had been p***ing down as usual up there) which, as you can see from the before and after photos is quite a distance from the pan where the aircraft is standing. Besides, 1982 is a long time before computer wizardry could do that kind of stuff.

Allan907 - I accept that the photo is genuine on your word. You may have hit the nail on the head when you mentioned 'long shot'. Telephoto shots tend to distort the perspective. Please accept my apologies for doubting you...

Regards,

FJJP

No probs.

Now, does anyone have a pic of the crunched Vulcan at Finningley??

Alamo asked about Exercise Skyshield.

The US and Canadian air defence systems were merged within the North American Air Defence Command (NORAD) on 12 May 1958. Coordinated from Colorado Springs in the Rocky Mountains, the Americans and Canadians had every right to be proud of NORAD. To prove it fully they decided to mount a massive air defence exercise (Skyshield) in October 1961 which was to be fully realistic and to which Bomber Command was invited. High Wycombe was more than happy to oblige, especially as it gave them an opportunity to test the new Vulcan B.2 under virtually operational conditions, and 27 and 83 Sqns were detailed to send four aircraft each. The 83 Sqn aircraft were sent to Lossiemouth to attack from the north while the 27 Sqn element went to Kindley AFB, Bermuda, to penetrate from the south. On October 14 both groups set off. The northerly wave began with B47s going in at low level from 500ft upwards jamming out the ground radars. Behind them came the B52s between 35,000ft and 42,000ft supported by B57s, while finally at 56,000ft came the 83 Sqn Vulcans in stream. Electronic countermeasures proved so effective that only the first Vulcan heard an F101 Voodoo lock-on, and though numerous fighters were scrambled they all concentrated on the B52s so that by the time the Vulcans came through the interceptors did not have enough fuel left to climb to 56,000ft for another battle and the British penetrated unscathed to land at Stephenville, Newfoundland.

The southern wave too came in "using all jamming equipment and passive defence systems". The 27 Sqn aircraft penetrated on a broad front, but as they approached fifty miles from the coast, when the fighters were unleashed, the southernmost Vulcan turned and flew north behind the jamming screen provided by its compatriots. Thus, while the F102 Delta Daggers concentrated on the three lead aircraft, the fourth Vulcan crept round to the north and sneaked through to land at Plattsburgh AFB, New York.

Flat Iron, I heard a rumour that the V-force jamming achieved hard kills on some of the radars as they overcame the safety devices. Any comment?

from allan907I always thought that the canopy relied on fwd airspeed to rip the canopy upwards once the forward jettison cartridges had unlocked and lifted the front of the canopy. If the aircraft has zero airspeed then the canopy guns would lift the front edge of the canopy which would then fall back onto the aircraft under the effects of gravity.

The intimation in ZH875's post is that the canopy gun just lifted the front of the canopy into the airflow, which then completed the task. Not so. The canopy gun was positioned immediately behing the pilots - it did 'lift the front of the canopy' but was big enough, with a substantial cartridge, to blow the canopy clear of the ac without airflow assistance. The action of the pilots, in pulling the jettison levers aft, unlocked the front canopy locks.

I also understand that they all exited via the front seats because the nosewheel area was awash with fuel.

Kim Bunting, the staff plotter, was out first, he should have been last!. He trod on the co's hand as the co tried to switch off the fuel pumps, onto the co pilot's legs and out. No worries about the bang seat pins! I suspect the seats were live but cannot remember exactly when they would have been armed.

Had the honour of being taught to fly by another fine V Force gentleman, by the name of Pete Armstrong. Don't know if any of you guys remember him but he told a fine tale of the 9 Sqn/617 Sqn Tirpitz bulkhead raid at Scampton a good few years ago. I've got his written version of it somewhere, with the attached letter from CO Wittering complaining of being used in 'High Jinks'.
I'll see if I can dig it out.
Watch this space.

RF

Now this has got the grey cells stirring! Didn't the canopy fly straight up and come down on someone trying to exit injuring their back? Or perhaps that was the one that landed wheels up at Finningley in early 1965 (couldn't have happened, shouldn't have happened but it did). My best mate married the captain's daughter - lovely girl!

I also remember some safety lecture where they had a very gory photo of some engineer whose arm had been penetrated by the canopy release pins. The story went that he had been sitting in the LHS doing something with the instruments and had been resting his left arm on the sill (the canopy was off). The emergency canopy release had activated and the bolt entered his arm at the elbow and exited at the wrist!

There was a fair amount of force in the emergency release system!!

Allan907, don't remember anyone being hurt at Finningley. I seem to remember that the crew were in the coffee bar, drinking coffee (what else) before the fire crew got there.

"V-force jamming achieved hard kills on some of the radars as they overcame the safety devices."

Hmm. Wonder if they'd work against speed camera radar...

(thumbs through Yellow Pages looking for surplus equip. dealers)

Mark.

RADAR JAMMING
 

Pontius N

Ref your did V-force jamming "achieve hard kills on some US radars as they overcame the safety devices" query, I fear we will need an AEO to answer that. Assuming we can find one who can write in plain English!

Not a hard kill, but someone (alleged to be a Vulcan) accidentally dumped a load of chaff over Norfolk one evening in about 1976 or 77. Saw it on Honington's AR1, it took hours to dissapate.

Had a similar problem at Finningley in the mid 60s. I was a lowly SAC working on BCDU and was tasked with burning some unused bundles of chaff which had been used on some trial or other. Had to be burnt because it was Secret.

The incinerator was near the sewage farm near the end of the runway and there was some other documents to be destroyed as well. As the fire gained in intesity we chucked on the packets of chaff and as the packets burnt away the chaff gaily floated up the chimney! Caused absolute panic in ATC - particularly as a 230 OCU Vulcan was on short finals at the time!!

Indeed - and rumour seems to indicate that it'll soon be even smaller if the Jags are flogged off and the GR9s go.....:mad:

It's almost impossible for people who've been in for less than 13 years to begin to understand what it was like in the '60s, '70s or'80s..... Lots of ac types, plenty of bases, overseas tours on proper RAF bases, not tents in abandoned car parks. Even when I was on the V-force we had 7 squadrons of Vulcans with 50 aircrew on each in Lincolnshire. If you drove across the UK England, you'd always see someone at low-level.

I think that it's around 40 places where once we flew which have closed since I joined. But noe there's H&S, IiP and all those other wonderful 'management initiatives'.

Adedicated group at Bruntingthorpe is doing its best to get just one Vulcan back into the sky. Having played such a key part in defending our heritage, the aircraft surely deserves to demonstrate how it was when we had an air force.

Another ECM nearly a hard kill was on Red Flag. As the F16 swept in for a Fox Two the AEO duly activated the I-band chaff, probably the book 5 bundles per second for 2 seconds and 5 second intervals, is about 15 bundles in 20 seconds of so.

Unfortunately they had a stripper runaway. The stripper broke the cardboard wrapper as the bundle was dispensed. All 1,000 bundles went out and the F16 ingested the lot.

Apparently the yanks were not amused with the shiny aluminium plated engine. He recovered Ok and broke off so it was certainly a kill.

A Vulcan also got a near miss with a Sea Vixen. The Sea Vixen was chosen as the nearest equivalent to the best Russian fighter, the Firebar. Also becaue it could be jammed, just like the Firebar.

The SV closed in at low level, below and behind the Vulcan which was at 500 feet. As soon as it was detected the Vulcan fired chaff and decoys, initiated a rapid climb, roll, and pushover, not above 1000 feet, and then sidestepped a mile of so. Meanwhile, the SV was inverted and descending!

It recovered, called knock it off and recovered to Yeovilton. The trial was abandoned forthwith and another successful tactic was written into the manual <g>.

The old power, pitch, roll, sidestep trick also ruined the day of the poor IWI student who was attempting a stern firing against us one fine day at low level over the North Sea. 3500 sq ft of highly disturbed airflow in the face somehow upset his aim!

There is a very good MA disertation in the latest edition of Air Power on the creation and effectiveness of the V-Force. The author has done an excellent job of trawling through archives and books and created a very credible essay. Her strength lies with her analysis of air ministry plans and documents; her weakness lies with less useage of primary sources from the V-force. She does however cite Alan Brookes on several occasions.

What the essay reveals is that documents at air staff level in the 50s and 60s actually avoided spelling out operational detail. For instance it was recognised that penetration of the central region was out of the question as the V-force would have to run the gamut of allied defences, tactical nuke contamination, and enemy bombers heading the other way. The option was the northern and southern routes. It was assummed that this was around North Cape and up through the Med. She was clearly not a navigator as a bit of map work would soon have shown up this fallacy.

The routes through Sweden and Switzerland gave the longest tracks through non-combat zones.

She then analysed the SAM effectiveness but ignored the possibilities of tactical deception and concentration of force.

A good article but earlier items in this thread will flesh out the detail. The Buccanneers were involved and not, as she said dismissed.

Is there a particular reason why this topic has slipped off the 'sticky' bit?

FJJP,

See the thread "Sticky threads -good or a pain" currently on page 3. You may find the answer there.

Some pages back I posted the types of attacks used by the Vulcan and other Vs. I suggested someone might have a go at the LPs or limited procedures. As no one has I shall have a go but in this respect I confess to failing memory as it was over 30 years ago.

LP1B - no ballistic computation from the Calc 3 so the attack was done using the HOME function on the CU585 and releasing when the distance to go on the Nav Panel matched the calculated forward throw. The release range was accurate down to +/- 200 yds. Offset attacks were still possible
LP2
LP3A - no navigation output from the Calc 1 and 2 so a fixed bearing marker and 15 mile range ring were set up. The aircraft was manouevred to bring the bearing marker through the target and the doppler distance gone counters started at 15 nm and the release initiated when the distance gone equalled 15 mile less the forward throw. Range accurate to about 200 yards and tracking depending on both the skill of the nav radar and the pilots and the visibility of the target as offset attacks were not possible.
LP4 - shiftless. The radar picture was usually slewed off centre by the nav rad using the CU626 and the range and bearing cross hairs would be scope centred. If the shift potentiometers, one or both, failed or some other malfunction, it was possible to drive them markers to the target position but not offset the radar picture. For a direct attack this limited the forward look to 15 miles or just one minute at high level. If there was an undershoot offset then you gained a bit of time. If there was an off track offset then you might not see it at all unless the aircraft flew closer to the offset. Full ballistic computation meant accuracies down to the 900 foot limit were possible.
LP5A - no height. I might have the wrong one here. The height carriage on the Calc 3 was not functioning so the Calc 3 height was set manually using the PC/Set H function. Using this the carriage height could be increased at 50 ft/sec. The pilots then had to fly at an accurately calculated height.
LP6 - markerless. In this case the full ballistic computation was possible but the markers from the Wave Form Generator (I think) were not displayed. Pre-flight the nav rad would have calibrated the scope electrnic centre for the attack track and release range and marked this with a chinagraph mark. Remarkably accurate as a full computed attack was possible.
Then we have a Basic attack. In this case the entire NBC (nav bombing computer) was U/s and the attack would be performed using a plastic gizmo called a bombing protractor. This had a moving arm calibrated in nautical miles at quarter mil scale and a drift scale. The drift was set and the protractor aligned with the headng marker on the picture. The aircraft was manouevred to fly down the plastic track and release at the calculated range mark. The target had to be discrete. In theory 1000 yards was a good bomb. In practice errors of 600 feet were not unheard of and that from 40,000 feet.
Then the piece de resistance, a pictureless. This was the opposite of the basic with the H2S 9 u/s. Release was accomlished from best navigation inputs and full comutation. Now we started to approach WWII accuracies <g>.

If we set these against a modern mission we can glimse an entirely different ethos. Today, any degradation would risk both the loss of the aircraft for an almost certain ineffective attack and high risk of collateral damage. With the V-force you never planned to abort a nucler mission.

Pretty as a picture.

http://img55.photobucket.com/albums/.../Vulcan_B1.jpg

If you thought the mark 2 could power off the ground you should have seen the Mark 1 land.

Without the sting in the bum it could pull up a prodigious angle during aerodynamic braking.

And if you were VERY careful, you could get BOTH tail strike warning lights on during aerodynamic braking without damaging the mechanism!