Developments
 

A quick update - the RAF Museum are very interested in establishing some form of archive based on this thread (plus recollections of the Valiant & Victor &, for that matter, other platforms involved in this sort of thing) from all involved in those ops (their exact wording is 'delighted to accept hard copies' of recollections).

As well as collating the snippets off this thread for archiving, if anyone wishes to produce a 'what I did in the V-Force' memoir for archiving in this (no matter how dull and boring it might seem to you), please PM me (to establish my bona fides) and we can take this forward via e-mail (obviously, I shall need to ensure there are no outbreaks of Walter Mittyism so that we don't fill the archive with gash material) - end result will be that I will collate hard copies of everything and send it on to the archive. I will have to ask those who've contributed above and who want their material to be included to send me their names and a quick outline of what they did in the V-Force, since the Pprune 'handles' probably won't be of much help to future historians.

Also, if I might take advice from any members of the V-Force Association here represented - would the association be amenable to drawing upon a wider basis of recollection than just Pprune users?

I have yet to manage to discuss with the publisher I mentioned (conflicting schedules, soon to be resolved), but am pursuing this.

The end result, therefore (I hope) will be a meaningful archive of personal experiences on the V-Force from air and ground crew, stored for access for future generations at the RAFM archive department, coupled with a published history based around these memories. To do this, of course, I need a spot of help in the form of the recollections above and beyond those here - so over to you (please!)...

3 Vs
 

I have Milt's photo on Vulcans in Camera

Aircraft identified as Avro Vulcan B1 XA892, Vickers Valiant B1 WZ373, and Handley Page Victor B1 XA919 [unless Milt knows different].

It was used [with permission] in a recent article in Air Enthusiast.

Yellow Sun. Yes indeed, it was the same Tony Woodford who became Stn Cdr St Mawgan. He was a great boss to work for.

Harking back to Pontius Navigator's excellent summary of V-force attack profiles, it made me appreciate the all-round versatility of the Vulcan design. I was on the Wittering OCU at the end of the Victor Blue Steel phase, and on the Type 2H (?) attack crews would tram in at 320kts, the flying pilot would pull 3'g' and the missile sent on its way. And every time he pulled 3 'g', the Victor wings went crack because they were acting as giant shock absorbers. No wonder Victor B2(R) wing joints were clapped out by the end of 1968.

The Vulcan B2 on the other hand, especially those from the 40th onwards with Olympus 301 engines, were given internal wing strengthening for Skybolt, which came in very handy once they were sent to operate down low. I don't think metal fatigue was ever a serious problem. However, the Vulcans' internal electrical wiring was certainly past its sell-by date at the end. If the wiring had been in a house, it would have been condemned. I think we lost XM600 near Coningsby on 17 January 1977 because the wiggly amps went we knew not where.

Wasn't that the Spilsby prang? I was told it went like this:

Routine RAT/AAPP for BTRs - when the AEO deployed the RAT the volts/freq were out of limits, but what the heck - on the synch bus bar it went... Then the overvolting became obvious, but once on the 'bar, at that time the RAT wouldn't come off until the Rover was cartridge-started lower down and took over. So the wiring gave way, fire started, out went the crew....

That led to the 'RAT field switch' mod which meant that at least the RAT could be turned into a lump of rotating metal rather than a runaway generator if it played up in future...

Any corrections/amendments?

Flatus Veratus,

The Blue Steel pull up and launch would have been a 3 something. Only if the missile was a dud and you had to ride it in a la Dr Strangeglove would it have been a 2H.

Oh the joy of taking a million quids worth of missile in for free-fall.

The next bit is about the V-Force low level delivery system pre-WE177.

Airship 1, "It is very dangerous climbing over the target to release a bomb"

Airship 2, "yes indeed, what we need to do is put a rocket on the back of the bomb, fly over the target, release it and let it loop the loop while the aircraft escapes."

Airship 1, "Good idea. I say, if we put a simple inertial platform on as well we could fly over an offset and let it do a corkscrew instead"

Airship 2, "Brilliant, I know, we can call it Blue Steel."

The 2H was, indeed, the 'toss'version of the Blue Steel delivery. I remember doing them at Gernish range. I seem to remember a pull up from 500ft to 8000ft before pushing straight and level before drop.

The electrics were a nightmare at the end. Don't forget that the ac flew 150% of its design life at the end, so much of the wiring that was designed to last the lifetime of the bomber without maintenance actually lasted half as much again in time terms. Some of the looms were almost dust at the end (as I found out on a western ranger - pity it was winter - but the allowances were nice!). Voice Rotating Beacon was the crew entertainment!

Pontius Nav

The only profiles we flew in my time (68/69) were the laydown (2F) and the pop-up to 2500 ft for conventional unretarded iron bombs. The latter got me in the dwang down at Darwin when we were dropping some time-expired live 1,000 pounders. I picked up some damage to my bomb doors from debris and was accused of not having made 2500 ft. Good old HQ 1 Group! Your remarks about popping up into the AAA zone are so true. That, I believe, is why they popped-up even higher at Stanley in 82 to avoid the Argie Sky Sweepers. And you know how the NBS loved late radical changes in altitude or airspeed.

My Father was a Vulcan pilot for many years 10 I think. If any one remebers him I would be pleased to hear from you.
Flt Pete Murfitt. who is sadley not with us now.

I can remeber one story of a low level positiong flight with Mike Pilkington as captain where my Dad decided to open the DV pannel En Rounte. the cockpit conversation can not be repeated in public.:*

I wonder why your Dad did that? Perhaps he had farted? :O

If this thread is being used to collate Vulcan stories for posterity I wonder if anyone can rember any details of the following story which was told to me by someone I worked with some time ago:

He was copilot in a Vulcan at FL400 over Liverpool when they had an engine fire. Although the weather was below limits, the captain insisted in landing back at Waddington. On final approach, another engine, same side, caught fire.

They did land safely and this guy went straight to his boss and refused to fly ever again.

The date? - the same day as President Kennedy's assassination. I understand that they had just been told about it when the first engine caught fire. He certainly remembers where he was when he heard about it.

It sounds like the captain could have been one of the characters already mentioned on this thread.

JulesM, I remember your father on 27 Sqn in the late 60s, although I wasn't on his crew. I remember I used to bring back from the States boxes of King Edward cigars, which he used to swap for 200 cigs or a bottle of spirits. It was a good deal for us and that was all he smoked. Sorry that he has passed on...

Nice chap.

FJJP

Flatus Veteranus,

The 2,500 feet was a good wheeze, shame you did not have a copy of the OLD air weapons range orders.

They quoted FOUR low levele heights. From memory and this is REALLY stretching it,

1,200 feet was the lowest level for a low level attack with 10% chance of damage from debris.

At 2,100 feet you were still in the damage zone with 1% risk of damage.

By 3,400 feet it was assessed that the risk of blast damage had reduced to less than 1%.

You can see that 2,500 feet was well within the blast damage zone and 99% chance of being outside the debris zone. At some point before we started doing the 2J these wonderfully accurate figures were removed.

I did a number of practice attacks where we could identify the target from the water spouts of the aircraft 2 ahead. I guess some 20 miles ahead. We would then aim at the water spouts and watch the next aircraft 'slide' down the bearing marker.

Purely from a curiosity point of view I would have liked to watch a real event on radar. Certainly the practice drops where impressive with water spouts climbing 500 feet back to the aircraft and the water boiling deep magenta. Our bombs were fused with 10ms delay to ensure the frag was under water.

Iron Bombs
 

Pontius Navigator

I do not recall seeing the range orders you mention or I might have been a bit more cautious - one did not get the chance to drop thousand pounder HE bombs very often, rather than inerts. June 21 1969 in XM 608 was the only occasion I can recall.

I seem to remember that we allowed each crew on the detachment one carrier-full of bombs (7). After the first crew came back from Quail Island with debris-damage we progressively jacked up the release-height. By the time I got to have a go we were much higher than 2,500 ft, and even then you could feel the bounce from the detonations. I recall now that my problem was not debris but a hang-up. I was flying with a crew other than my own and one sodding bomb would not let go. Having tried to shake the ****** off out over the sea I foolishly closed the bomb doors and went round for another pass at the range. Inevitably, on the run-in, there was a big thump and we had a live 1000 lb HE sitting on the inside of our bomb-doors.

Crew conversation dried up a little. Over the sea again, I opened the bomb doors and the f***er dropped away cleanly. The bomb doors did close again, but on landing we found they were pretty badly bent out of shape. They were taped closed with glass tape and the aircraft was eventually flown back to Waddo.

Of course I was in the dwang because I had not done the correct hang-up procedure (the 90-way switch gear was never my forte). Anyway my career was already in worse shape than the bomb doors and when the matter was dredged up at my farewell chat with the AOC I did not improve matters by saying that that I would rather screw up a pair of bomb doors than slaughter a bunch of Abos. Adieu! :O

Apologies if this has already been covered but a little known Vulcan capability was a part of my life during the Falklands war when we ran a LGB trial with the aircraft at West Freugh.

Two bombs inside 15 feet from 16,000 feet must have set the record for Vulcan bombing accuracy.

Flatus Veteranus,

I remember you well. We always enjoyed your rapid visits down the corridor in ops.

The range orders may well have been NEAF range orders. From my experience of 43 years 'on the job' and having just completed a history degree I now realise our error. We were so keen on keeping the books up to date that we often threw out the history with the bath water.

One pearl in the NEAF range orders was the bombing priority. Today it is scheduled exercises. Then NUMERO 1 was a "Bomber of the Medium Bomber Force carrying out a First Run Attack".

In theory, and usually in practice, Vulcans had to deploy to Luqa, Akrotiri or El Adem, launch do a brief navex and join the range for an FRA before joining the pattern for the next 3-4 hours.

This time, Phil Largeson, our ex-CO on 12, and newly appointed Wg Cdr Ops at 1 Gp, decided to use the orders to the letter and employ the fabled expolits of the V-Force to the max.

One Groupex we all planned the standard groupex but had been given the heads up to pack maps and charts for the full range of the Vulcan. Goose?

We launched at 10 minute intervals across the group, perhaps 30 aircraft from the 3 wings. Shortly messages started dotting and dashing in from group. Each an individual message, in coed, to each aircraft. "...... what is you fuel estimate at GDP?" Decoded, calculated, encoded, re-transmitted and replied "Continue"

As each message speceled the ether, the AEO, with not much else to do, idly decoded each message. "14,000" "Execute FRA El Adem target no 1, recover Akrotiri, report estimated FOH"

Not us, the next aircraft.

Every alternative aircraft was despatched to Akrotiri. A couple of small glitches. Group had told no one, not the French, not El Adem and not Akrotiri. About Newcastle the "lucky" aircraft turned south and about 6 hours later started to drop out of the sky at Akrotiri.

Next day, Friday, we wandered into ops to find out what had happened. "1Gp to Akrotiri: Aircraft to RTB UK immediately. Conduct FRA at El Adem target 1"

In slightly better order the aircraft duly returned to UK. 6 Hr 45 min for one. I don't think anyone landed at Manson but it was close.

Phil Largeson loved implementing orders. But then too so did Dick Smerdon, Slops at Coningsby and Waddington but that is another story.

From another thread:

A quote from aeroflight.co.uk


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The production line switched over to the Vulcan B. Mk 2 version on the 46th and subsequent aircraft. The first production B. Mk 2 (XH533) flew on 19 August 1958 with Olympus Mk 200 engines. From 1960, Olympus Mk 201 engines of 17,000 lb (7,711 kg) thrust were introduced. By 1963, Olympus Mk 301 engines of 20,000 lb (9,072 kg) thrust were being fitted (from aircraft XH557), but no engine retrofit for earlier B. Mk 2s was attempted.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Really? AFAIK XH, XJ and XL were all 200 series. Only the XM were 300. On my OCU the most frequent ac I flew were XJ 781, 782. When I discovered, years later, a 784 I was surprised. I flew a couple of XL, ex Blue Steel ac years later. The only 300s I flew were XM 597 onwards. 596 also came out of the wood work late on.

No engine refit was tried as it was not needed. The 300s were developed to lift two Sky Bolts. No Ky Bolt so we were then stuck with a thirstier engine and no more real power as we were no allowed to use Combat Power.

XH557 was the 11th Mk2 and the first to be fitted with the larger intakes. It was flown to Filton [remember Reg Wareham demolishing the Runway Garage on the A38?] to do development flying of the 301. Eventually it received 4 301s.

XJ784 was re-engined by Avros with 301s to join the testing programme.

XL391 was the first to be fitted new with 301s though its first flight was delayed.

XL392 through XM573 were 200-series Blue Steels

XM574 through 595 were 301 Blue Steels

XM596 was not completed

XM597 onwards were 301 free falls

XL384-390 were delivered as 200-series free-fall but were retrofitted as 301-engined Blue Steels.

The original plan was to re-engine the whole fleet with 301s. The first aircraft to fall out of the scheme were the first 10. Enlarging the intakes would have cost £30000 per aircraft.

Some aircraft were indeed converted but the programme was stopped because the performance gain was not as anticipated, it was not necessary with changing weapons and tactics, and the fuel consumption was 1.5% worse.

Our old Giant Voice aeroplane, XH538 was one of the small-intake 200-series jets. Went well enough and was one of the nicest 35 sqn Vulcans. No-one bothered about the difference between the small and large intake ac - except for the groundcrew who needed the right intake blanks!

XH538 for BEagle
 

Thanks so much - our dear old jet looking typically 'worn'!

Many a happy hour spent flying her!

Just about to have din-dins; afterwards I'll recount the 'how we wowed Wichita' tale - so pull up a sandbag!

When was the piccie taken? I know that it was at Waddo, but when?

OK - Wichita 1979:

6 November 1979 was our crew’s turn to fly the Giant Voice (SAC Bomb/Nav competition) semi-final. We’d taken off from sunny Barksdale AFB and the high level bombing was spot on time, then down to low-level on IR 595 for another 4 targets, plus some fairly canned EW and fighter threats.

The low level went fine, I was map reading and the Captain was flying – then we had the EW threat and Colin-the-AEO responded appropriately. A bit of a shame that the threat was totally obsolete but was the only thing they had which our useless EW jammers could respond to. Then came the first 2 targets; the only 50-thou maps we’d been able to get hold of were at least 20 years old... But the target photos had given us some clues and thanks to my hand drawn map, we got a good release point photo. Then the nav team did their mysterious ‘Large Charge’ procedure and we were on to the next target. That went OK, then it was time to enter the fighter threat area. Predictably, we heard an F-106 lock on, so waited until he got close then broke hard into him from below 200 ft at 60 deg AoB. That made his eyes water – he didn’t get a firing solution before we were out of the threat area. Target 3 didn’t go well – the Nav Radar released some 2 miles early for some unaccountable reason. But Target 4 was OK-ish although we knew we hadn’t got any chance of making the final by then. So it was pilot playtime...

The trip was too long for us to fly Barksdale to Barksdale, so it’d been arranged for us to ‘gas ‘n go’ at McConnell AFB, Kansas. Inbound with Kansas City Center, they asked the usual “Hey, what type of airplane is that” questions; when we got lower the Wichita approach controller said he’d never seen a Vulcan, so could we possibly fly over Wichita airport on our way in. Well, that made the horns come out! We flew up their runway at 100 ft and about 300 knots (right over the top of an unsuspecting Lear Jet which had been told to hold on the runway), then pulled up in a huge, very noisy wingover right over the heads of the good citizens of the city of Wichita, before joining downwind for a visual approach at McConnell AFB. Total time was 5:25; my logbook simply says ‘GV 79 semi-final. IR 595 and ‘PD’ to Wichita airport’!

We put a splash of fuel into XH538, then filed for our trip back to Louisiana. A nice ‘ripple-rapid’ start to get their attention, then off on RW 36. We requested a departure to the north, then a tear-drop return overhead the field for an unrestricted climb to FL 470. That was OK’d, so off we went. Stayed at low-ish level, accelerating very nicely, then back over McConnell at 350 kt before pulling up for where-the-air-is-rare. There then followed on of those “Stop climb at 15 thousand” – “Sorry, cleared unrestricted and currently passing FL240 climbing” – “OK, stop climb FL 310”- “Sorry, cleared unrestricted and we’ve just left 310” – “OK, climb and maintain 410” – “Err, sorry, passed that as well and shortly levelling FL 470” RT exchanges as we set off south. Later we arrived at Barksdale, broke into the circuit at 300 knots and 120 deg of bank off the break, then stacked to the bar where Mister Charles, the famous Barksdale O Club barman provided copious jugs of suds.

But we hadn’t realised what the effect of a large, noisy, triangular aeroplane at 90 deg of bank, bellowing furiously had had on the good citizens of Wichita. The local media were inundated with tales of UFOs and queries for more information...it didn’t take much for them to ring McConnell and the next day there were heavens knows how many TV and radio journos waiting to greet the other crews when they landed. The journos just didn’t believe that the Vulcan was over 20 years old.....

Later our AEO overheard the Nav Radar on the phone to his new girlfriend in the UK. “Good news, darling – it looks as though we’ll be coming home next week”. As we did – thanks to him throwing the 3rd target. We never did accuse him as such – but we all harboured very strong doubts!

301 cf 201
 

I believe that when I arrived at Waddo the SOP was to take off in 301-engined aircraft with the EGT limiter in the CRUISE position to save engine life. With a 3,000 yard runway there was never any need for the full whack of 20,000 lbs or whatever. Later the limiters were wire-locked into the CRUISE position.

However on 4 Jun 69 en route to MOONFLOWER in XM603, we were delayed at Muharraq because of a snag on one of the other aircraft for which our crew chief was needed to lend a hand. By the time we got off it was about noon and HOT. In those conditions the Victor K1s had to offload so much fuel that it ws hardly worth taking off. The runway was only about 7,000 ft in those days and by the time we got to the take-off point the wind had switched to quite a significant tailwind . So rather than recalculate the take-off, with the connivance of the crew chief, the locking wire "fell off" the EGT limiter and we went off like a demented rocket! With bombay panniers full of spares and the detachment duty-free we were at about 200,000 lbs, if I recall, and we only used half the runway.

You had to watch it at Goose in winter temperatures that you did not overboost the engines.

During the Malvinas ar$e-kicking, I understand that the 301s were once again restored to their full rating!

Performance - and the lack of it...
 

Then there was the Micky Finn with 3 Vulcan Mk2s and one Victor K1a on the ORP at Marham. The RW was 24, with 8kts tailwind, which didn't bother the Vulcans of course. The K1a with full load was overweight for RW24. As I already have an incident on the Victor thread, I'll leave this on on the Vulcan one.

The plan was to let the Vulcans go and taxy the Victor via backtrack to RW 06, then 180 and T/O.

When the scramble order came, there was a hell of a noise and everything went black, as the Vulcans roared off. Our K1a captain (I was the Copilot this time...) caught up in the exitement also roared off - into the black fog. I started calling out speeds - 80kts, 90kts, 100kts in the hope that he would slow down - and then the air became clear, just after the Vulcan rotate point - to reveal 500m or so of remaining runway.

I should point out two things at this point - firstly the top brass were there to observe the scramble from mid field - secondly the brakes on the Victor were marginal and there was of course no reverse, only the brake-chute, which was always deployed on landing.

The brass, thinking we were trying for a direct take off, were saying "My God, they're not going to make it!" our Captain, as he closed the throttles with commendable alacrity was also shouting "We're not going to make it!" but for a different reason - he thought we wouldn't stop in time.

It is amazing how the brain works in these unforseen situations. From my position on the right, I could see the opposite ORP, empty but with a row of Victors waiting to go on the taxyway, with a little space in front of them. I called out to the Captain, who was doing a job on the brakes, that if he pulled hard right, we may be able to make a turn at speed.

Well, as he didn't have a lot of choice, he clutched at the straw and swerved into the ORP, to the consternation of the waiting crews. We then swung in a wide left turn, with the right refuelling pod millimeters off the runway and just made it in the remaining width for a very "rolling" take off on 06.

When, once we were airborne he called for Gear up (or rather Undercarriage up) I delayed as long as I could in an attempt to cool the brakes a bit - this wasn't appreciated, as the brass were watching...

By the way, the Captain eventually became "brass" himself. As they say - "Every one you walk away from is a good one...".

BEagle

538 at Waddo in September 1979.

Please check caption at http://www.avrovulcan.org.uk/don_gil...waddington.htm
and advise of any changes re 538 at GVs 78 and 79.

Ta

We were detached to Waddington for the Giant Voice Training Flight on 19 Aug 79 with XH538. We flew numerous training routes and Dudgeon lightship NBS calibration runs during August and September 1979, including one on 13 Sep when we had to shut no 1 engine down (for a JPT gauge failure, if I recall correctly). On 15 Oct we flew 538 to Goose Bay, then down to Barksdale on 16 Oct. After 4 training flights we flew our only competition sortie on 6 Nov... We then flew XJ824 back to the UK on 16 Nov and returned on a VC10 for the prizegiving ceremony, flying back on it the day after (feeling dreadful!). 538 was certainly back in the UK very shortly afterwards as we rejoined 35 Sqn on 3 Dec 79 after a 4:35 hour BTR-bashing trip.

The next year we took 538 to Wildenrath for a long week-end of Wobbly und Wurstchen on 8-11 Feb, including some low-level fighter affil in awful weather against 19(F) Sqn F4s.

We started the 1980 Bombing Competition calibration sessions again at the end of Feb; the last time I flew 538 was on 26 Feb 80 as I was posted to Phantoms shortly afterwards - via a Jet Provost refresher course, then summer at Valley flying the Hawk until going to Chivenor in September for the first Chivenor Hawk TWU course and then to Coningsby the following spring.

The 'SAC' badge had been removed after the 1978 GV; however, its distinctive shape could still be seen on 538 afterwards.


Hmm - someone earlier made a posting after this one - it's now disappeared. The point of my post was merely to supply the information which alamo requested!

The weekend with ‘538 in Wildenrath was one of those typical trips we all did in those days. On the Friday we did a 3 hour trip from Scampton including the odd target or two, then (according to my log book) I had the ILS and landing at Wildenrath. Our captain had worked out that, if he could get to the station in Mönchen Gladbach in time, he could just make a train to visit friends elsewhere. Now it just so happened that I still had my NATO Führerschein – the legacy of a holding session between my Gnat and Hunter courses 4½ years earlier - so, with luck, we ought to be able to hire a cheapo car from the NAAFI! The nav team and AEO checked us all into the OM (those spartan annex blocks!), whilst the captain and I wangled a fairly ropey Ford Taunus estate out of the system. He changed into civvies whilst I did the paperwork, then we set off for M-G attempting to navigate from a 50 thou map we had. Found the Hauptbahnhof and my chum the captain made his train with a few minutes to spare. I then had the joy of driving through the M-G rush hour in my goon suit as I hadn’t had time to change! Eventually I got back to the OM and went to get my room key – but was hi-jacked by the rest of the crew for a very welcome Wobbly (Warsteiner Pils to the uninitiated) or few and some good banter with the fighter mates. Later I remember trying to get out of my immersion suit whilst half-pi$$ed....ever tried that? Not easy...!!

The weekend passed the usual way – late start, sober up by lunchtime, then visit Holland. Drive back later after having realised that you haven’t actually got any Guilders, then another evil session in the OM bar. Sunday – much the same except that I missed dinner and instead stopped for a Schnellie (“Ja – Bratwurst mit Senf und Pommes Frits mit Mayo’, bitte!”) on the way to collect the captain from the railway station that evening instead of getting stuck in the bar, so felt pretty chipper on the Monday morning. We briefed a short trip to bomb a target somewhere in Germany- the F4 mates would try to stop us. Off we hurtled from Wildenrath in the ‘Ruhr haze’ of those days and groped our way at low level to the target. No fighters seen, the odd Pulse Doppler peep on the RWR but nothing to indicate a Sparrow firing solution – and there was no way they’d have managed an AIM-9G shot! I remember thinking that these guys must be pretty good to operate in the sort of clag we were in, but we claimed victory! After landing, we discovered that they’d actually pulled out of low level as the weather was so poor.... Off to the Mess to warn out, then back to Ops to file for our trip home. The nav plotter was way behind the rest of us, late to pack his bags and warn out, he then wanted to check all the UK NOTAMs. “Bolleaux” we said, “we’re flying airways to Ottringham, so just check the navaids!”. Ignoring his mutterings we got to the aircraft, loaded a very happy Crew Chief and all his duty-free, then fired up and roared off. Noise abatement? No such thing then – who won the war anyway? Up to FL 430 or thereabouts, whereupon the plotter announce that he needed a pee. To do this he unplugged from the intercom, then turned his back on the rest of the crew to use that horrid pee-tube and bladder. I got the AEO to tell me when he was in mid-flow, then pushed gently to just under zero g. Plotter and pee-tube rose gently to the top of the rear cabin, then a smart pull had him in a damp puddle on the floor! He didn’t actually see the funny side of that! The rest of the trip went fine, but we all sat a few seats away from the plotter at the debrief.....

Just a typical Lone Ranger trip of those days – and we flew another 2 trips as well that week, making a total of 12 hours for the week and 47:45 for the month.

God it was fun back then!

Beags

Top tale, as usual. Must take issue with you on one little point though.

...then a smart pull had him in a damp puddle on the floor! He didn’t actually see the funny side of that!

Can see the rough humour in that, but I bet your ground crew didn't at the time. :* Next to mercury, urine is the most corrosive stuff to have floating around loose in an aircraft. As an ex-rigger, I've seen the results of missed "relief" tubes / bags / bottles, etc - and the real hard (and messy) work it takes to clear it up and nullify the corrosive effects. If you reported it in the 700 (and I hope one of you did), it would have caused some poor s0d of a rigger hours of extra work lifting bits of floor and thoroughly cleaning / inspecting parts of the structure.

Still, a good tale though. :cool:

Not really a problem in the Tin Triangle, as it would merely trickle down to the entrance door and then freeze. Then melt in the descent and pour out of the door when it was opened....

As 'Paddington Bear', one of our 35 Sqn Flt Cdrs discovered when, dressed in his nice crisply laundered KD he opened the door to greet us on our arrival in Luqa - only to be greeted by the by-product of a split pee-tube as it flowed out of the door and over his nice clean uniform!

But at least he had the good grace to laugh it off and give us a can of Cisk beer each! "Greet the M****n crew with some beers - and they pee all over me!" was his comment.

Hi Beags, any idea what Paddington's doing these days? I used to fly with him in Blue Steel days - I got the full 'new co-pilot' works to drag me towards some sort of maturity!

Just to back Beagle up,

The notoriuos P-tude had 3 holes in it. One at the top which was the input and two others!

At the bottom was a screw thread bung which could, with dexterity be unscrewed and the contents of the bladder poured out before the whole was washed and disinfected. The other was the join between neck and bladder.

As many a copilot discovered to his cost this often became disconnected. As Co's usually peed sitting down you can imaging the rest.

The groundcrew disliked the pee tube as much as the aircrew but were know to leave the bottom bung unscrewed!

The other problem was the damn thing falling off its clip.

We landed in Cyprus and a sheet of yellow ice slid off the door.

Crew Chief: "Someone's dropped some orange squash onto the door."

"No Chief, not squash."

Nasty Pee Tubes

The P51 Mustang had a little funnel on a tube somewhere beneath the seat. Other end of the tube exited the fuselage down the back.

If ground crew didn't like you they would turn the exit tube into the airflow to give one a spray job.

Longest flight I made in a Mustang was over 5 hours.

Longest in a Vulcan about the same but cannot remember whether the BMk1 had a relief tube. Did it?

I was at Duxford on Thursday and wondered if any of our 'drivers' flew this one

http://img47.photobucket.com/albums/...ord_Vulcan.jpg

We flew it back from Barksdale to Waddington via Goose Bay 14-16 November 1979. That's the only time I flew it; it had been one of our 4 Giant Voice '79 a/c, but was ferried home after the semi-final as it wasn't one of the best. We had to leave our far nicer XH538 for another crew to fly.

Stupid question really, BUT: Having read Beagle comment on "our much nicer....."
Were the a/c different?

Handling, temperment!, vices, quality of build? What made a nice a/c?
Were some total sods?

Please expand.

Unless there was something wrong with them, they all handled much the same. But '538 was better looked after by our crew chief, generally tidier inside with hardly any bodge taped repairs to panels, etc. We'd modified it to have a stopwatch holder for the co-pilot to use on IP-to-target work which was very useful indeed!

PPruNe Pop XJ824
 

XJ824 was one of four Vulcans of No 27 Squadron that participated in Operation Skyshield II in 1961 that tested the air defences on North America. They flew from Kindley AFB Bermuda. Other aircraft were XH555 and XJ823. The fourth I don't know. Four aircraft from No 83 Squadron also participated, flying in from Lossiemouth.

http://www.avrovulcan.org.uk/824400.jpg Aircraft at Kindley AFB

One of the four 27 Sqn aircraft landed at Plattsburgh AFB NY and the detachment wound up at Loring.

It seems the Vulcans were pretty successful. Has anyone any further insight into this or personal recollections?

More

Bombing Comps - The other bits!
 

Time for a bit of "Now it can be told!" In the early '70s I went off to do the CSRO course at Mountbatten. This was shortly before the annual UK Bombing & Nav Comp. In those days the targets for the competition were published about a two weeks before the comp. and given the constraints of the low level system it was possible to predict rough target areas. One of the plotters latched on to the fact that I would be driving back from Mountbatten the weekend following the course and just after the targets for the comp. were announced. The next thing I knew was that I had "volunteered" for a bit of recce. I was loaded up with a couple of armfuls of 1" maps and told to buy a film for my camera. A few days later a phonecall from the squadron provided a list of grid refs. and I started planning a scenic route back to Waddington. The weekend journey involved a lot of trudging up hills to photograph such strategically important locations as a minor road bridge over a motorway, entrance to a railway tunnel, a sewage farm (potential offset aiming point), large isolated building etc.

At one point, having just returned to my car having photographed a target somewhere on the Welsh border, I saw a car park a short distance away and out stepped two navs from another Waddington squadron who proceeded up the track I had just returned on. I snatched a quick photo, but in those pre tele lens days it was not good enough to identify them. But I know who they were! On return I was relieved of the film, much too technical for a copilot, the results of which became part of the target study material for the squadron crews.

One target which I hadn't surveyed was the final one, an insignificant little minor road bridge somewhere in the fens southeast of Waddington. This was a classic "no show" radar target. On the final day of the comp, it being fine and sunny the crew decide that an outing to watch the bombing was in order. So, having stocked the captain's car with Newcastle Brown, we set off for the last target. We found it without difficulty, for it appeared that most of Waddo, Scampton and the USAF from Marham had the same idea. The area round the isolated tiny bridge was a busy car park and all those open boot lids must have provide the best radar response south of Flixborough Works (before the explosion that is!).

YS

Such close encounters with other 'spies' was all part and parcel of the fun way of life back then. One 'spy team' were negotiating a fairly awkward farm track when they met the farmer - who told them that their 'mates' were waiting for them further down the track!

On GV, it wasn't unknown for cars to be hired and driven hundreds of miles out into the bondhu to try and get some piccies of the targets... One Yank squadron even drove their own radar offset markers out into the middle of nowhere to help their competition crew. Later they helpfully showed their radar shots to the opposition; sadly the radar significant offsets had gone when they flew the route the next day!

Thanks to a friendly AEO, we had some good shots of a little telephone exchange somewhere in Yorkshire one year - even taken from the correct approach heading. Got a 50 ft score on that, we did!

It’s a pity, in my opinion, that the Duxford Vulcan is in a ‘later’ colour scheme. The aircraft never looked better than in the early sixties delivery colours. White belly and underside, high gloss camouflage ( always loved that!) with a black radome.

The 'wrap round' camouflage scheme arose directly out of the first Red Flag Exercise that the Vulcans took part in in 1977. The USAF fighter crews remarked that when the Vulcan was banked at low level, the white inderside was a perfect giveaway against the desert landscape. The post exercise report included a recommendation that the 'wrap round' camouflage be adopted. Astonishingly, it was agreed by the powers that be that it should be so and was rapidly adopted and implemented.

Prior to one of the UK bombing comps, the Sqn nav radar team noticed an unusual gound feature - a horseshoe shape with a dot in the middle It was figured that if we could pinpoint that location, we would have a cast iron radar offset for the area. 3 of us went to the area, and after a couple of days, found it. We used it to good effect on the comp and walked away with several trophies - no-one else matched the accuracy we achieved through that offset!

On one of the GVs, a bunch of wives in hire cars set off for a picnic at a special location, usually devoid of any radar significant features. Funnily enough, they parked facing a particular direction and simultaneously by coincidence left their boot lids open! It was pure coincidence, of course, that their boots were pointing directly up the track of the approaching bombers! Astonishingly, the Vulcan crews found a big fat offset target on their radar screens... The USAF immediately investigated, but when they arrived at the field in question, all they found were a bunch of cows!