RAE Farnborough - steeped in history

[RETDPI]

I was assured that the hardstanding in front of the Black Sheds was built partly upon a base core of surplus early aero engines. Anno Domini precludes me remembering the full story.

[chevvron]

I'll get me metal detector! And to think Pete Le Gros did shakedown runs on his drag-bike on that very piece of tarmac; little did we know what was under it!

[IFPS man]

RAE Farnborough

Visiting the 2008 SBAC show at Farnborough, I looked across at the old RAE site. Hmmm. Not much of the original factory site appears to remain. I worked in the Atmospheric Hazards Section of EP Dep't between 1967 & 1970; just wondering if there are any other Pruners who were there at that time, and if they have any interesting stories of their time there??
AW

[RETDPI]

I was at I.A.M 69-73 on frequent detachments.
Lived in the No.1 Officers' Mess of the R.A.F.
Now long gone,
Like me.

[chevvron]

Brand new hotel on the Officer's Mess site and another one being built roughly where 'Space Dept' used to be (near the archway which was the framework of the original airship shed). Only arrived in '74 so I can't help you IFPS Man.

[IFPS man]

Valiant bits

Re "Chevron's" comment about the Valiant bits:
When I was in the Atmospheric Hazards Dep't, (working particularly in the Bird Impact Section over at Ball Hill), myself, Tony Campbell and Brian Dawson had to go to the Shoeburyness Ranges to get some windscreen wiper motors/assemblies from some of the "redundent" Valiant aircraft - there were probably ten or so "aircraft" there in various stages of destruction: One row was sections of fuselage; another cockpit sections, and another of the wings and tail units.
Also lurking in the same area was a Bristol 188 research aircraft.
In the Section, we also had parts of the wing section of TSR2, the idea being that we could fire the chickens at the airfame sections and thus build up a "bank" of statistics on Bird Impact. That would have been in the late 60's/early 1970. Also, I had to go to the "aircraft dump" near Ascot and, using an LPO (Local Purchasing Order), bought up the front screen of a Hunter. £150 it cost...
Incidently, chevron; which ATC Squadron were you in? I was in 261 (Guildford) Sqn up to Nov. 1970, whence I went to OCTU at Henlow.

[chevvron]

I was originally 2204 (Chesham) Sqdn (with Honey Monster) as cadet then adult staff, but about 4 years after I was commisioned, the Wing Staff officer came to me cap in hand and asked if I would consider taking over 1811 (Marlow) as it would have to be disbanded if I didn't. I did and fortunately inherited several keen staff members (one of whom was an AWO in the local CCF!) and an excellent CWO and together we re-vitalised the squadron within a few years.

[RFWells]

Buried Engines

I have only just discovered this forum, so please forgive me for going over old postings. As a young engineer I worked at RAE from 1966 to 1972 initially as a Technical Assistant in various departments and then in the Engineering Physics department as an Engineer III.

Back in September 2007, RETDPI mentioned that he heard a story that many aero engines were used as the hardcore for the Black Sheds concrete standing area. One of my jobs at Farnborough was to operate and run tests on the “Blower Tunnel” This was a freestanding tube with 2 Rolls Royce Merlin engines, including propellers, that was used to blow high velocity air and water into a variety of targets including airplane canopies and double-glazed windows. The tunnel was on a concrete pad out in the open next to a large hangar near the Pyestock entrance to the airfield. To keep the tunnel in good operating order, we had several brand-new crated Merlins for which we were constantly being pestered to sell them by outside agencies with plenty of cash. It was rumoured that there were many more crated engines that had been used for hard core for the foundations of the hangar at this end of the airfield but no one ever provided other than anecdotal information.

[deagles]

Re Mike Hawkins

I was just reading the fascinating thread on Farnboro' RAE history (only 4 years late) when i saw a call for any memories of Mike Hawkins, tp, who was killed some 30 years ago, in Canada.
I have some memories of Mike and will share them if the request is still open.

[Flying Lawyer]

There are lots of posts about events and people going back to the golden years of British aviation, but always room for more - post away.

I thought/hoped when I started the thread that we'd get quite a few interesting reminiscences, but I didn't foresee the extent of the success it's become.
As you say, a fascinating thread.


FL

[atb1943]

This may be of interest:

The Life & Times of John Wheater(Farnborough, Wokingham, Downside, Bristol, Toronto, Farnham)

rgds
Alan

[Bobthirtytwo]

Madbob

Madbob - saw your mention of Sqn Ldr MR Jace Alston and No 7 Course (1948); he unfortunately died in '56 flying a Canberra. I have a group photo of that year with all names present. I also have a list of final percentages.
I have a particular interest in following up Jock Elliot, who was Mackenna Trophy for that year. He was then posted to Aero Flight for the next three years where he was greatly involved in things transonic which was the great urgency of that particular time. Any possible memories of Jock would be treated like gold dust - - - - -
If you would like a copy of that photo then just get in touch and I shall be only too delighted to pass it on.
I am [email protected]
BJ

[DennisK]

Some Farnbrough notes

How sad to see Farnborough progressively dismantled ... so many memories, the sad times when the Atlantic Breguet took down one of the black sheds when turning left on a single engine final. The Sikorsky (about 1974 ish) falling out of a slow roll on to the 25 runway. The wind was so strong, the Carmichael fire engine foam wasn't reaching the flames.

'Twas my first public Enstrom display and I packed my allotted two minutes with what I thought was my very best manoeuvres for the display committee. As I vacated the active, I was more than dis-heartened to hear the ATC call "Was that it?" (rather like ones first attempt at sex) ... but they were the early days of light civvies.

The wonderful voice of commentator, John Blake and his incredible aviation knowledge.

Then Group Captain Chuck Charles at pilot briefing. "The occupant of number 23 Station Road, called to say that as much as he admired the Tornado's low-level run, the noise was frightening, so could the pilot be asked to move his display further away." Next morning briefing ... The owner of number 23 Station Road has called to say would we thank the Tornado pilot for his co-operation which was much appreciated. However, we took a call from the owner of number 25 Station Road .......!

Chuck Charles went through the many minor display violations of the 100 feet rule. "The Short Skyvan fly past had been made too low, the Piper Tomahawk had flown too close to the crowd line." He went on to list a few further transgressions, closing with ... "And now we come to the Enstrom. On several occasions it was seen to rise above 100 feet .. in fact we have received complaints from the rear chalet holders that they haven't yet see his show!"

My Enstrom parking spot was usually on the disused 19 threshold by the Airbus 320. It was from there, I witnessed my first helicopter loop performed by the MBB 105 flown by Ziggy Hoffman.

How well I remember (1958 I think) the 'Treble One Squadron' all black Hunters in a glorious loop, the venerable Ben Gunn making fast runs in the tiny all-yellow Boulton-Paul Delta, (P111 was it?) The Hughes 500 with Mike Smith on board G-HOOK, dropping a Renault from four or five hundred feet and never to forget Bill Bedford umpteen Hunter spins and the VTO 'ski ramp' lift-offs.

I could go on ... so many super memories of Farnborough, but am I getting old?

Best wishes to all ppruners,

Dennis K

[norwich]

DennisK. As you are able to give us such supurb, detailed, memories as that, you are not getting old ! just matureing, and realising that you have such a wealth of knowledge that you are able to pass on to others !
I think that is such a nice thing for those who were not there at the time.
Thank you !

Keith.

[Daifly]

Have read this thread with interest, as I work on the airfield itself these days.

I seem to be one of the few people who are a little bit sad at the removal of heritage, but to be fair to TAG a lot of that blame rests with the planning approval which effectively limits to total square footage of buildings on the site, so if they need to build something to make the airport work for today, they have to remove something first to provide them with the square footage to do that (hope that makes some sense!)

My office now is pretty much where The Dump was (any tip offs of radiation, that sort of thing, very welcome sooner rather than later!), and our engineering company moved recently from L-Shed (which I've now found out was essentially designed as a transportable hangar and thus came down pretty quickly once the work started) to A-Shed. Even as a kid I my parents used to take me to the Airshow (living about 200 miles away back then) where I used to get overexcited at the sight of the Red Arrows lined up outside the black shed and so now I still can't quite get my head around the fact that part of the company I'm with is working in them! Hopefully most of you will be pleased to hear that our engineering company is now in them and is maintaining aircraft - at least trying to keep some of the tradition alive.

The more I read about A-Shed and its history the more interested I become in finding out even more about the site. When we moved in it was already beginning to look like a museum piece there with all the stickers and zaps from airshows of the 70's and 80's all over the place, but it's being smartened up now, which will hopefully give the sheds (which remain in better nick than anything I've seen that's been built in the last 50 years) a good future. There is still the weighbridge in the floor too!

[Bobthirtytwo]

Bobthirtytwo

John - I was really interested to read yours about Dennis Higton’s work on the control rig for jet aircraft in the hovering mode. I am not the least bit surprised as Jock Elliot, then attached to Aero Flight, worked very closely with Dennis on the Boulton Paul P111 (VT935) in it's original form; this in ’50 – ’51, Altho’ the actual construction was by BP the design was RAE, and the spec, (E27/46), showed how early, and futuristic, was the vision to see the need to explore the concept. The original pointers came from Germany after the war. Dennis recalls how although S/Ldr Bob Smythe made the first flight, Jock soon took over and contributed greatly to all the work that was carried out. Many problems arose in the control circuit, giving rise to some nasty moments in the air, as well as some vigorous verbal exchanges on the ground after landing!. Early in the programme, NASA reported that shapes similar to the B P Delta had ‘tumbled’ when near or at the stall. As they were feeling their way in this flight region it made it extremely dangerous to press on with anything but extreme caution. The anti spin parachute was also used when landing, enabling them to proceed ‘a knot at a time’ until a clear a firm picture emerged of the stalling behaviour. The control system was by a 100% hydraulic non-reversible action, thus the input from BP with their virtually unrivalled experience with powered gun turrets built up during the war. The system incorporated a system of trimmable springs to allow for feel; this system functioned reasonably well at moderate speeds; however there was a value at fine settings whereby it was possible to move the stick without encountering the springs which at higher values became extremely dangerous. Jock said that at 500 kts IAS a 1/4 inch of stick movement gave an acceleration of 1 "g", and went on to comment that the potential for a catastrophic sudden reflex input was very real indeed. At a point when Jim Harrison pulled off a most commendable belly landing after an undercarriage hangup there was a strong line of thinking that the entire project should be shelved; however Jock came up with an idea which was a real conceptual breakthrough in that he outlined a proposal whereby light, self centring springs, allied to a system of variable gearing between stick and control surface would, relative to aircraft speed, allow stick forces to be maintained constant for steady conditions and should also maintain transient forces in a constant state; thus the feel of the aircraft would be retained in a constant state throughout the speed range. The point was made that the idea of variable stick/control surface gearing was not new; it had been considered in the early days of high speed monoplane design, although as a fixed variation, but “ . . . with trim changes which occur at high Mach numbers a continuously variable gearing would be more preferable. The basic proposal outlined was that the stick to control surface gearing should be continuously variable between a ratio of 1:1 and 4:1, thus allowing from 1:1 = full stick movement = full control surface deflection, and 4:1 = full stick movement = ¼ control surface deflection. His idea was presented in a paper at the RAE in December '51 and was unanimously accepted for flight trials in a Meteor, thence incorporated into the Delta, now as the BP 111a.
I see that Jock, accompanied by Dennis, had already journeyed to Wolverhampton, in Avenger KE 446, on 23rd Oct '51 to discuss the idea with the team there, including Chief Engineering Designer J D North,

[Old Photo.Fanatic]

Farnborough Airshow 1954

My enduring memory of Farnborough was as a boy of 13 I was able to attend the 1954 Airshow on the Public Saturday.
I am at an age where "Senior Moments " often happpen, "her in doors" says you can't remember where your backside hangs sometimes.
But I can recall every moment of that Saturday Sept. 1954.
Still have the Programme and the"Times" Aviation Supplement.
I stood with a schoolfriend and his Father on Derry Hill.
There was a thunderstorm at the start which set the atmosphere for the rest of the show.
It was the last year that Aircraft were allowed to break the sound Barrier
as Public trials of the effect of the Sonic Boom.
I can picture now the Five a/c which broke the sound barrier:
Hunter(Neville Duke)/ Swift/Javelin/DH110/Supermarine 525 .
I remember there were multiple "Booms" from some of the a/c during the
"Dive" (As I understand starting over the Isle of Wight.)
Having broke the sound Barrier the a/c would arrive at very low level,
"Transonic".,cacooned in shockwaves enhanced due to the wet air from the thunderstorm. in "Pure Silence", the sound following some time after the a/c passed. Absolute Magic.
Other impressions, Prototype Vulcan, Famous picture of it top plan view "White" against the black thunder cloudes.
The Victor("2nd Prototype?) on its second flight, Maiden flight that morning
The Black Valient Mrk II (Pathfinder)
Olympus Canberra, What a take off and Display/The folland "Midge" et al.
Another memory was walking back to the coach park went past the
"Crash" dump saw remains of the Comet I crashes piled up!!

My first Airshow was in 1952,(Colerne) and still attend major ones here and abroad.
But that Farnborough had a Magic not repeated to this day.
As I lived in Bath I had to sleepover the previous night and on returning the Sat Evening, as my friend lived in "Colerne."
I remember walking to my home on the Sunday Morning from the nearby Bustop ,walking on cloud nine.
It meant so much to me also because due to Circumstances it was a
hardship for my parents to afford the 5 Shillings (25p) cost of the trip!!!!
I would love to hear from anyone who might have been there on the same day, (Week End)
Now closing the hangar Door.
OPF

[tornadoken]

1954: covered the 12.5p. entry price by picking up empty Coca-Cola bottles and handing them in, collecting the penny deposit. In 1952 went to Waterloo for the excursion train; the queue was endless so Ma took me to Battersea Fun Fair. Else, might have been on (to be) Derry Hill.

[John Farley]

Bob32

Good stuff. Please check your PMs

JF

[chevvron]

DennisK: are you sure you displayed the Enstrom in 74? I ask beause in my recollection the 74 display was done by an american who'd come from Florida as I remember his words to me '24 hours ago I was in Florida and I'd never heard of Farnborough; I arrive here and the first aircraft I see is Concorde'
The S67 Blackhawk was definitely 74; it was my first airshow (of 17!!) and I had a close up view as I was in the control tower preparing the next day's display programme when it occured; it came out of an unrehearsed barrel roll all wrong and it was obvious from the blade slap that it wouldn't pull out.
That was also the show where I met John Farley. He had been tasked to fly Raymond Baxter in G-VTOL for a live tv transmission and needed to book a 'slot' to take him through it to find out if he (Baxter) could resist the 'technicolour yawn' syndrome, so he asked me (the most junior person!) to find the slot!