RAE Farnborough - steeped in history
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Re: Boulton Paul P111 Delta VT 935
I have come to the conclusion that, rather than have me ramble on about the Delta and completely missing out the finer nuances which are the very nub of the work, it would be far more appropriate to post a paper written by Jock Elliot and presented by him at RAE in mid December '51.
It illustrates the state of thinking at that time in relation to the introduction of powered controls and the problems of feel by those who were trying to push out the boundaries of thinking. JF's contribution of Dennis Higton's rig for control in the hover mode shows the quite amazing levels of thinking going on at that time. I also feel that where possible the ground breaking work of those days should be recognised, altho' I'm not sure if Jock would have approved as he was most reluctant to be involved in exposure in any shape or form!.
It illustrates the state of thinking at that time in relation to the introduction of powered controls and the problems of feel by those who were trying to push out the boundaries of thinking. JF's contribution of Dennis Higton's rig for control in the hover mode shows the quite amazing levels of thinking going on at that time. I also feel that where possible the ground breaking work of those days should be recognised, altho' I'm not sure if Jock would have approved as he was most reluctant to be involved in exposure in any shape or form!.
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Did You
John - I clicked the number and clicked close the window at the bottom - is that the circuit secure?
Sorry that I am so inept with these finer points of electronic wizardry!.
Bob
Sorry that I am so inept with these finer points of electronic wizardry!.
Bob
Do a Hover - it avoids G
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Hi Bob
Fear not we all have to learn until we actually climb into our coffin.
Private Messages are a secure way of us passing info.
I sent you a PM that I would like you to read.
To do this look at the top right corner of the PPRuNe page that you are currently using to read this where you should see a welcome box with your name in it and the date you last visited plus IN BLUE the words Private Messages which are underlined. Put your cursor over the words (which should then change colour) and do a single left click.
This should then get you into your private message log where you will find one from me that you can open and read. In it you will find my normal email address which you should use to answer my message.
JF
Fear not we all have to learn until we actually climb into our coffin.
Private Messages are a secure way of us passing info.
I sent you a PM that I would like you to read.
To do this look at the top right corner of the PPRuNe page that you are currently using to read this where you should see a welcome box with your name in it and the date you last visited plus IN BLUE the words Private Messages which are underlined. Put your cursor over the words (which should then change colour) and do a single left click.
This should then get you into your private message log where you will find one from me that you can open and read. In it you will find my normal email address which you should use to answer my message.
JF
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BP Delta-Feel Problems-Dec '51
Sorry to have been out of commission for the past couple of weeks but here as promised the paper by Jock E. It shows the state of knowledge at that particular time and the problems which were being raised. It would be interesting if anyone would like to tease it out and maybe think about other ways in which the probs might have been approached at that time.
CONFIDENTIAL
AIRCRAFT "FEEL"
by
Lt. J. Elliot, A.F.C., R.N.
There are many different types and makes of aircraft flying in the world today, but it is doubtful whether any two of them feel exactly the same to the pilot; some of these aircraft are pleasant to fly whilst others are anything but. With the increasing trend towards fitting aircraft with irreversible power operated controls where synthetic "feel" must be provided it would appear logical to attempt to produce a "feel" which is universally liked and to make the feel of all aircraft of a given class as near identical as possible, thus reducing the problems of pilot conversion and training when changing from one type to another.
Although there are in existence at the moment only a few aircraft with purely synthetic feel, no two of them feel alike whilst at least three of them are reputedly unpleasant to fly.
Before more synthetic feel systems are introduced it is felt that nothing can be lost by having an informal discussion on this important feature amongst those most qualified to speak on the subject, in the hope that some concrete facts for the guidance of designers concerned with systems of this kind may emerge.
1. General
With high speed aircraft it is thought that the actual feel of the rudder is relatively unimportant and this note is devoted entirely to elevators and ailerons .
1.1 Definition of Feel
When the pilot of an aircraft moves his control column the aircraft responds in some way or other and eventually assumes (it is hoped) a steady condition; at the same time (with aerodynamically balanced controls) stick forces may vary as the aircraft responds and as a result the stick and control surface position may alter. The aircraft responds and the changing stick forces are noted by the pilot and are correlated to give him an impression which he calls the "feel" of the aircraft.
1.2 Aircraft
There is obviously a difference in providing "feel" for a large aircraft with high inertia and good damping as opposed to providing feel for a small aircraft with low inertia and little damping, and both have their problems. For the large aircraft 'g' restrictors etc. may provide the answer whilst for small aircraft other devices may be essential. There are, however, several pilots who are highly qualified to speak of large aircraft whilst the author's experience has been gained almost entirely on a small aircraft and the remainder of this note will be mainly concerned with this type only.
1.3 Transient Response
Whilst a suitable stick force per 'g' etc. must obviously be aimed at, it is not entirely on these steady conditions that the pilot will judge the feel of the aircraft but to a large extent on the transient responses of the aircraft to stick movements which for several reasons may differ very noticeably from the conditions. To-day these transient responses vary from type to type and although two fighter aircraft may have identical values of stick forces per 'g' at a given speed it will be most unusual if the elevators feel the same to the pilot.
1.4 Control Damping
In addition to the variation in transient response between different aircraft, different controls and control systems give different inertia and damping loads to the stick, and these also have a share in the pilot's impresion of feel and anyone who has flown with a small stick movement/high force spring feel system will appreciate that it bears little resemblance to the feel of an aerodynmically balanced control and in fact is exactly like a spring self-centring device, which is not surprising since that is what it is. If displaced and released the stick will fly back into the no force position with a suddenness which is totally unlike the centring of a good aerodynamic control whilst the general sensation of moving the stick is somehow different.
1.5 Present System
It appears that, with a few exceptions, the designers of synthetic feel systems have up to date concentrated on steady aircraft conditions and have provided reasonable stick force per 'g' and stick force per rate of roll (although some have not even got this far - no names, no pack drill,) coupled in some cases with q or V variations, but the results have not been very satisfactory.
1.6 What is Pleasant
Although perhaps slightly irrelevant, it is felt to be worth a mention that, in the author's opinion, the most pleasant form of control to be found today is the light spring or servo tab type balanced in such a way that centralising the stick gives a certain amount of momentary control surface overshoot (until the aircraft adopts the new steady condition) thus giving a positive control over the aircraft both on initiating and in stopping a movement (the latter being a point of some importance which is invariably overlooked).
2. The Small Delta Aircraft
This section describes some of the main snags in the feel system of the B.P. Delta research aircraft.
This machine has large and potentially very poweful controls (rate of roll for full differential elevon movement - full stick - at 500 m.p.h. has been estimated as 500°/sec.).
2.1 Control System
The Boulton Paul P.111 has two large elevons operated by irreversible hydraulic power units controlled by the pilot's stick. Stick forces are provided by fixed trimmable springs, no force variation with air speed change being made.
The control surfaces themselves have 23% aerodynamic balance which enables the aircraft to be flown without the power units operating, whilst an automatic trimmer tab on each elevon should ensure that the machine is at all times approximately aerodynamically in trim.When flying in "manual" the automatic tabs can (if desired) be operated by hand and the aircraft trimmed normally.
Stick forces are :- with springs trimmed central: full aileron either way 15lb: full elevator either way 35lb.
The stick force build up is linear with stick displacement.
Up to date the performance of the actual power units has been extremely good and the slightest stick movement gives a corresponding movement of the control surface(s) whilst a backlash is almost entirely absent.
Trouble has been experienced with the spring force system and with the automatic trimmers.
2.2 Automatic Trimmers
Although not really a feel problem as such it was thought that the trouble experienced with the auto- trimmer was worth mentioning. These tabs are caused to operate by force sensing devices in the elevon operating rods and should normally keep stick forces (if power control fails) within reasonable limits. At above 250 knots A.S.I., however, it was found that the aircraft was so heavy that it could hardly be flown without causing the tabs to operate and that due to their high rate of movement considerable overshooting took place and in fact complete control was lost on one occasion for some considerable time. It is hoped to rectify this trouble by reducing the rate of operation of the tabs (4½°/sec. to ½°/sec).
The aircraft has been flown in manual at 400 knots A.S.I. with the automatic trim system switched off and the controls were found to be very heavy.
2.3 Spring Forces
At low A.S.I. the stick force for steady manoeuvre, i.e. stick force for rate of roll, are considered to be reasonable satisfactory. For normal flying at low speed, however, there has been a strong tendency towards overcorrections, these in some cases becoming out of phase with the aircraft response and proving dangerous.
It is thought that this overcorrection is due to the powerful controls and low inertia and damping of this aircraft with the lack of damping on stick movement.
Initially the spring system fitted was trimmed by normal hand wheels and a large amount of backlash was present between the stick and the springs, this meaning that the stick (and controls) could be moved slightly without any stick force. At lower A.S.I.(up to 250 knots) this was not too serious but at higher A.S.I. it became most unpleasant.
At a later date an improved spring system was fitted (trimmable to no force by electric actuators operated from a button on the stick) which initially had very little backlash and flight up to 500 knots A.S.I.was found to be satisfactory in this respect, although the tendency toward overcorrection was still very much in evidence. Due to the continual loading of the springs in flight, however, the backlash in this new system is on the increase.
At high A.S.I. since no "q" or other variation system is fitted, stick movements for aircraft response (with as a result stick forces) fall to a very low value and in fact the aircraft can be flown in the backlash region (no force) and the impression is gained that flying is achieved by slight bending as opposed to stick moving. The danger of this becomes very apparent if a sudden motion is required when the tendency to make a large control movement followed by the most appalling overcorrection has been noted.
(lb./g at 500 knots = 2 lb. Stick movement/g at 500 knots = ¼".
2.4 Impressions Gained
The following is a summary of the impressions gained regarding the feel of this aircraft: -
1. At low A.S.I. the aircraft is considered to be reasonably “flyable” but the feel
is unsatisfactory in that although forces for steady conditions are satisfactory the stick forces for transient responses appear to be too low and there is a tendency to overcorrection.
2. At high A.S.I. the aircraft is considered to be dangerous and unpleasant to fly due to the tremendous amount of control available and to the small stick movements and forces normally required, together with the tendency toward overcorrrection.
3. With control power off the aircraft is satisfactory at low A.S.I. but at high A.S.I. the elevons are very heavy.
(Part 2 will follow in a few days.)
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BP Delta-Feel Problems-Dec '51 (Part 2)
3. Remedies
At low A.S.I. with control power on it appears that as well as being slightly overcontrolled the machine lacks some form of damping on control column movement and it is hoped, by decreasing the available control angle slightly for the same stick movement and by adding a damper to the stick, to make the aircraft pleasant at those speeds.
It is thought that if stick movements and forces experienced for a given aircraft response at low A.S.I. could be retained at high A.S.I. then the aircraft would be pleasant at all speeds.
In order to provide sufficient control angle for all conditions of flight with the stick movement available, the stick movements actually required at high airspeeds are very small (¼" per 'g' at 500 knots), thus accentuating any faults in the spring feel system. It is felt that the provision of an entirely satisfactory spring system to cope with these tiny movements would be almost impossible. Thus to provide variations of spring force with airspeed (q or V feel) does not entirely solve the problem.
It has long been contended that although pilots have to date flown chiefly withreference to stick forces, there is no reason why this should continue, and if stick movements for aircraft response are made large enough it seems reasonable to supposethat a pilotwould fly quite happily with no stick forces at all. (This has in fact been confirmed on two power operated aileron installations.)
The provision of sufficient stick movement to meet this requirement is not likely to be desireable in aircraft with anything but very limited uses but there is no reason why a half way measure should not be adopted by using light self-centring springs and altering the stick to control surface gearing as speed is varied, thus keeping not only stick forces for steady conditions the same but it is hoped keeping transient forces constant as well, thus making the feel of the aircraft constant throughout the speed range (if desired of course the aircraft can be heavied up slightly with speed or otherwise).
This idea of variable stick/control gearing is not a new one and was considered in some detail when the first high speed monoplanes were designed and has been employed to a certain extent in some aircraft by using a fixed variation, i.e. a change in gearing with stick position. This latter may still offer an answer for some aircraft but with the trim changes which may occur at high Mach number a continuously variable gearing would probably be preferable.
By use of variable gearing not only will the high speed case under power control be catered for but in manual the forces at high speed will be reduced also.
4. Variable Gearing
A rough outline of the system which is being considered for the B.P. Delta is given. (With the use of elevons the mechanics of the system are somewhat more complicated than when dealing with a split control system and for ease of explanation the system is outlined here with reference to a single control.)
Firstly the basic (present) stick/control surface gearing is to be reduced and a damper is to be fitted to the control column; the stick to control surface gearing is then to be continuously variable from a ratio of 1:1 (basic) to 4:1 ( i.e. full stick movement = full control movement, to full stick movement = ¼ control movement) whilst in addition the control datum position (position of control with stick central) is to be made variable as the pilot wills.
At low speed the aircraft will be flown almost as at present but as speed is increased the amount of control movement for a given stick movement will be decreased. This necessarily involves a reduction of the total control angle available byuse of the stick but byoperating the control datum trimmer any range of control angle can be selected at will.
No spring trimming will be fitted and at any speed the pilot will trim the stick central (no force) by altering the datum of the control.
In this aircraft it is proposed that the gearing will be altered manually by the pilot (although if satisfactory a "q" system may be fitted) whilst the datum trimmer will be operated by means of an electrical actuator controlled from a button on the control column.
One of the more attractive features of this scheme is that it caters for both "power" and "manual" conditions whilst should either the gearing column or the datumn trimmer fail it should be possible to fly the aircraft quite satisfactorily by use of the remaining system.
5. Summary
5.1 It appears evident that the provision of satisfactory "feel" for aircraft with irreversible power operated controls is a problem of some magnitude, particularly in the case of the small aircraft. Since the "feel" of an aircraft plays a large part in whether the machine is liked (and hence used to it's best advantage) it is considered essential that this problem be solved.
5.2 With few exceptions, existing systems are unsatisfactory; they do, on the whole, provide suitable stick forces for any steady aircraft confition but do not cater for the transient responses which contribute largely to the pilot's impression of the "feel".
5.3 It is perfectly obvious that for an aircraft with a large speed range some variation in stick movement must be adopted (q or V variation etc.). This has been amply proved in the Boulton Paul Delta where stick movements (and hence forces) required to manoeuvre the aircraft have fallen to such a low figure at high speed that the aircraft is unsafe to fly.
5.4 In the case of the B.P.Delta it has been found that not only is the machine unsafe to fly at high airspeeds but that the control column movements have become so tiny as to make the provision of a suitable spring force system almost a mechanicalimpossibility; it is,however, hoped to achieve good "feel" by first fitting a damper to the control column (to reduce the rate of control application and thus overcorrections) and then, byvarying the stick tocontrol surface gearing with speed, to keep the aircraft response to a given stick movement and force constant throughout the speed range.
5.5 For the large aircraft, control column movements may not become so small as to make the provision of spring forces difficult, whilst in addition the sheer inertia of the machine will help to damp reponse; variation of stick force alone plus perhaps a "g" restrictor system may prove perfectly satisfactory; even so the adoption of variable gearing for aircraft of this type has many attractive features.
5.6 In conclusion it is pointed out that, except by accident, good aircraft "feel" will only be achieve if the pilot can express intelligibly to the technician exactly what he wants, for this reason the responsibility for the "feel" of future aircraft, be it good or bad, rests squarely on the shoulders of the pilots of today.
(Delivered by Jock at RAE. 14/12/51)
At low A.S.I. with control power on it appears that as well as being slightly overcontrolled the machine lacks some form of damping on control column movement and it is hoped, by decreasing the available control angle slightly for the same stick movement and by adding a damper to the stick, to make the aircraft pleasant at those speeds.
It is thought that if stick movements and forces experienced for a given aircraft response at low A.S.I. could be retained at high A.S.I. then the aircraft would be pleasant at all speeds.
In order to provide sufficient control angle for all conditions of flight with the stick movement available, the stick movements actually required at high airspeeds are very small (¼" per 'g' at 500 knots), thus accentuating any faults in the spring feel system. It is felt that the provision of an entirely satisfactory spring system to cope with these tiny movements would be almost impossible. Thus to provide variations of spring force with airspeed (q or V feel) does not entirely solve the problem.
It has long been contended that although pilots have to date flown chiefly withreference to stick forces, there is no reason why this should continue, and if stick movements for aircraft response are made large enough it seems reasonable to supposethat a pilotwould fly quite happily with no stick forces at all. (This has in fact been confirmed on two power operated aileron installations.)
The provision of sufficient stick movement to meet this requirement is not likely to be desireable in aircraft with anything but very limited uses but there is no reason why a half way measure should not be adopted by using light self-centring springs and altering the stick to control surface gearing as speed is varied, thus keeping not only stick forces for steady conditions the same but it is hoped keeping transient forces constant as well, thus making the feel of the aircraft constant throughout the speed range (if desired of course the aircraft can be heavied up slightly with speed or otherwise).
This idea of variable stick/control gearing is not a new one and was considered in some detail when the first high speed monoplanes were designed and has been employed to a certain extent in some aircraft by using a fixed variation, i.e. a change in gearing with stick position. This latter may still offer an answer for some aircraft but with the trim changes which may occur at high Mach number a continuously variable gearing would probably be preferable.
By use of variable gearing not only will the high speed case under power control be catered for but in manual the forces at high speed will be reduced also.
4. Variable Gearing
A rough outline of the system which is being considered for the B.P. Delta is given. (With the use of elevons the mechanics of the system are somewhat more complicated than when dealing with a split control system and for ease of explanation the system is outlined here with reference to a single control.)
Firstly the basic (present) stick/control surface gearing is to be reduced and a damper is to be fitted to the control column; the stick to control surface gearing is then to be continuously variable from a ratio of 1:1 (basic) to 4:1 ( i.e. full stick movement = full control movement, to full stick movement = ¼ control movement) whilst in addition the control datum position (position of control with stick central) is to be made variable as the pilot wills.
At low speed the aircraft will be flown almost as at present but as speed is increased the amount of control movement for a given stick movement will be decreased. This necessarily involves a reduction of the total control angle available byuse of the stick but byoperating the control datum trimmer any range of control angle can be selected at will.
No spring trimming will be fitted and at any speed the pilot will trim the stick central (no force) by altering the datum of the control.
In this aircraft it is proposed that the gearing will be altered manually by the pilot (although if satisfactory a "q" system may be fitted) whilst the datum trimmer will be operated by means of an electrical actuator controlled from a button on the control column.
One of the more attractive features of this scheme is that it caters for both "power" and "manual" conditions whilst should either the gearing column or the datumn trimmer fail it should be possible to fly the aircraft quite satisfactorily by use of the remaining system.
5. Summary
5.1 It appears evident that the provision of satisfactory "feel" for aircraft with irreversible power operated controls is a problem of some magnitude, particularly in the case of the small aircraft. Since the "feel" of an aircraft plays a large part in whether the machine is liked (and hence used to it's best advantage) it is considered essential that this problem be solved.
5.2 With few exceptions, existing systems are unsatisfactory; they do, on the whole, provide suitable stick forces for any steady aircraft confition but do not cater for the transient responses which contribute largely to the pilot's impression of the "feel".
5.3 It is perfectly obvious that for an aircraft with a large speed range some variation in stick movement must be adopted (q or V variation etc.). This has been amply proved in the Boulton Paul Delta where stick movements (and hence forces) required to manoeuvre the aircraft have fallen to such a low figure at high speed that the aircraft is unsafe to fly.
5.4 In the case of the B.P.Delta it has been found that not only is the machine unsafe to fly at high airspeeds but that the control column movements have become so tiny as to make the provision of a suitable spring force system almost a mechanicalimpossibility; it is,however, hoped to achieve good "feel" by first fitting a damper to the control column (to reduce the rate of control application and thus overcorrections) and then, byvarying the stick tocontrol surface gearing with speed, to keep the aircraft response to a given stick movement and force constant throughout the speed range.
5.5 For the large aircraft, control column movements may not become so small as to make the provision of spring forces difficult, whilst in addition the sheer inertia of the machine will help to damp reponse; variation of stick force alone plus perhaps a "g" restrictor system may prove perfectly satisfactory; even so the adoption of variable gearing for aircraft of this type has many attractive features.
5.6 In conclusion it is pointed out that, except by accident, good aircraft "feel" will only be achieve if the pilot can express intelligibly to the technician exactly what he wants, for this reason the responsibility for the "feel" of future aircraft, be it good or bad, rests squarely on the shoulders of the pilots of today.
CONFIDENTIAL
(Delivered by Jock at RAE. 14/12/51)
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Thoughts on JE
I open up the box expecting to find the rich chat carrying on as usual, recounting the happenings of these days, of some 50/60 yrs ago, at Farnborough when so much was done to set British aviation up for the second half of the century and what do I find - nothing!!.
I don't think Jock would be happy about that - he was a guy who liked a bit of conviviality and enjoyed good chat. Jimmy Harrison, who was to say the BP Delta was his most unfavourite aeroplane, and the Vulcan Mk 2 his most favourite, told an amusing anecdote linking high level stab and drag research at high mach numbers set around the birth of his daughter Susan. It was at the time when the RAE had borrowed an F86 to carry out comparitive trials with the Hawker P1052 and the Supermarine 510. The setting shows Jimmy's wife Maureen in the Aldershot military hospital with Baby Susan at about visiting time when the area was subjected to the most resounding bang; there is no record as to the response of the all powerful Matron. Proud new father Jimmy arrives at the bedside, grinning gleefully and saying "That was Jock - dropping a supersonic bang to welcome the new arrival"!. Apparently that was the first occassion on which a supersonic bang had been recognised as such over the UK. Jimmy goes on to say the F86 needed a good 42,000ft with a 60 degree dive to produce and indicated of about M1.15.
All for today - am feeling somewhat lonely so let's have some chat!.
I don't think Jock would be happy about that - he was a guy who liked a bit of conviviality and enjoyed good chat. Jimmy Harrison, who was to say the BP Delta was his most unfavourite aeroplane, and the Vulcan Mk 2 his most favourite, told an amusing anecdote linking high level stab and drag research at high mach numbers set around the birth of his daughter Susan. It was at the time when the RAE had borrowed an F86 to carry out comparitive trials with the Hawker P1052 and the Supermarine 510. The setting shows Jimmy's wife Maureen in the Aldershot military hospital with Baby Susan at about visiting time when the area was subjected to the most resounding bang; there is no record as to the response of the all powerful Matron. Proud new father Jimmy arrives at the bedside, grinning gleefully and saying "That was Jock - dropping a supersonic bang to welcome the new arrival"!. Apparently that was the first occassion on which a supersonic bang had been recognised as such over the UK. Jimmy goes on to say the F86 needed a good 42,000ft with a 60 degree dive to produce and indicated of about M1.15.
All for today - am feeling somewhat lonely so let's have some chat!.
Regrettably I only arrived at Farnborough after most of the 'interesting' test flying had moved to Bedford. I was told that a 'supersonic' overland corridor still existed along the Bedford Levels where TPs could produce an overland bang (it was still in their FOB anyway)
My one and I believe only experience of a 'boom' was in the mid/late '60s when they were evaluating the effects of them over land prior to Concorde's first flight. I was at my parent's home in Chesham, Bucks when with a clear sky in the middle of summer, I heard what I thought was thunder. A few days later, I met Honey Monster, (we were in the same ATC Squadron) and he said did I hear the boom the other day. (Honey Monster by the way, was posted to Farnborough a few years before me.) Anyway he told me it was Farnborough's Lightning, which had been detailed to lay down a boom from Reading towards central London.
My one and I believe only experience of a 'boom' was in the mid/late '60s when they were evaluating the effects of them over land prior to Concorde's first flight. I was at my parent's home in Chesham, Bucks when with a clear sky in the middle of summer, I heard what I thought was thunder. A few days later, I met Honey Monster, (we were in the same ATC Squadron) and he said did I hear the boom the other day. (Honey Monster by the way, was posted to Farnborough a few years before me.) Anyway he told me it was Farnborough's Lightning, which had been detailed to lay down a boom from Reading towards central London.
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Codys Tree
The tree IS in the new small museum on the site of the old Officer's Mess. I also wandered past it in the 50's when I was Scientific Assistant there. As I started in Aerodynamics, I also remember walking around the complete return circuit of the 24' Wind Tunnel.
The whole place is now a ghost of itself, but I have faith that enough people want it to continue...so continue it will. I'm only sorry I live too far away to be part of the help.
The whole place is now a ghost of itself, but I have faith that enough people want it to continue...so continue it will. I'm only sorry I live too far away to be part of the help.
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sonic booms and airshows
Relative to the sonic booms, I was at Farnborough as an RAE student apprentice back in the good old days when sonic booms were part of the annual show, but I never heard such ‘monsters’ as I did when camped in Utah in April 1968 when the SR-71 Blackbird was test flying over the area. I never even glimpsed the culprit – long gone before I could get outside and likely flying at altitude. There would be several booms every week, and each would almost send me through the roof of the camper.
I was in the apprentice hostel the Saturday Farnboro show of 1958 when Beaumont in the P1B hiccuped and sent a sonic shockwave into the control tower, breaking a number of windows. At the hostel there was no boom, but an awfully loud and sudden flypast.
BTW, at the ‘gathering’ before the opening of that show I, then an 19 year old lad fascinated by fast aircraft, wandered down to A shed tarmac when the P1B arrived and parked. While walking around it and poking (worshipping might be a better word) one of the FD-2s arrived with Peter Twiss aboard, holder of the then air speed record (1152mph) . Twiss climbed out and crawled underneath to open an access panel and check a leaking fuel pump – with me right behind to see what he was doing. We had eye contact but exchanged no words – he probably already knew what a nuisance the RAE apprentices could be. A short time later Fairey Aviation’s Dragon Rapide arrived with mechanics aboard. They removed the fuel pump and Twiss climbed into the Rapide and took off for Hayes with it – arriving at Farnboro with the world’s fastest plane and leaving with its slowest.
I was in the apprentice hostel the Saturday Farnboro show of 1958 when Beaumont in the P1B hiccuped and sent a sonic shockwave into the control tower, breaking a number of windows. At the hostel there was no boom, but an awfully loud and sudden flypast.
BTW, at the ‘gathering’ before the opening of that show I, then an 19 year old lad fascinated by fast aircraft, wandered down to A shed tarmac when the P1B arrived and parked. While walking around it and poking (worshipping might be a better word) one of the FD-2s arrived with Peter Twiss aboard, holder of the then air speed record (1152mph) . Twiss climbed out and crawled underneath to open an access panel and check a leaking fuel pump – with me right behind to see what he was doing. We had eye contact but exchanged no words – he probably already knew what a nuisance the RAE apprentices could be. A short time later Fairey Aviation’s Dragon Rapide arrived with mechanics aboard. They removed the fuel pump and Twiss climbed into the Rapide and took off for Hayes with it – arriving at Farnboro with the world’s fastest plane and leaving with its slowest.
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I have over 100 pictures which belonged to my step father from his time at Farnborough (Post War) including the Jet Tudor and 'Ghost' Lancastrian. I am in the process of posting some on the aviation world forum. Sadly many of the pictures are of poor quality and also being a met man, many are of the weather with aircraft in the far distance. I would post some but uploading photos on here is a pain in the jacksy, on the other you you can just upload them from your PC.
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Thanks to all for these fascinating Farnborough memories.
I arrived there in 1951, after Met Office jobs at Lyneham and Aldergrove. Not at the RAE proper, but the Institute of Aviation Medicine, which was (is?) at the Queen's Hotel end, near ETPS. I occasionally had reasons to visit some RAE department, and took the opportunity to browse in the library, where there were some interesting German publications on gliding and light aircraft between the wars.
The IAM climatic lab, with a large closed-circuit tunnel, had just been opened, and work on air-ventilated suits was going on, among other things. They were designed to keep aircrew warm or cool, by blowing air at a suitable temperature through a network of plastic tubes. I don't know if they were ever much used in regular service.
My first powered flight was at Farnborough, in a friend's Aeronca 100, G-AEWU. He gave me a lift to Lasham in it, where I later had the privilege of being instructed by Derek Piggot and Tony Deane-Drummond, among others. Sadly the Aeronca was squashed a year or two later, when the canvas-roofed hangar where it was kept collapsed in a heavy snowfall.
Near the IAM lab there was a small building or Nissen hut containing a lot of aviation junk, including what seemed to be things from German aircraft taken to Farnborough at the end of the war. The place was unlocked, and apparently anyone was free to help themselves. I picked up an Askania air-driven turn-and-slip, thinking it might be useful for a glider. I still have it, and offered it for free on this site a year or so ago, but got no takers. If anyone can make use of it, let me know: aj.buntingATbtopenworld.com
I arrived there in 1951, after Met Office jobs at Lyneham and Aldergrove. Not at the RAE proper, but the Institute of Aviation Medicine, which was (is?) at the Queen's Hotel end, near ETPS. I occasionally had reasons to visit some RAE department, and took the opportunity to browse in the library, where there were some interesting German publications on gliding and light aircraft between the wars.
The IAM climatic lab, with a large closed-circuit tunnel, had just been opened, and work on air-ventilated suits was going on, among other things. They were designed to keep aircrew warm or cool, by blowing air at a suitable temperature through a network of plastic tubes. I don't know if they were ever much used in regular service.
My first powered flight was at Farnborough, in a friend's Aeronca 100, G-AEWU. He gave me a lift to Lasham in it, where I later had the privilege of being instructed by Derek Piggot and Tony Deane-Drummond, among others. Sadly the Aeronca was squashed a year or two later, when the canvas-roofed hangar where it was kept collapsed in a heavy snowfall.
Near the IAM lab there was a small building or Nissen hut containing a lot of aviation junk, including what seemed to be things from German aircraft taken to Farnborough at the end of the war. The place was unlocked, and apparently anyone was free to help themselves. I picked up an Askania air-driven turn-and-slip, thinking it might be useful for a glider. I still have it, and offered it for free on this site a year or so ago, but got no takers. If anyone can make use of it, let me know: aj.buntingATbtopenworld.com
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Such a fascinating thread , with all this info you could put a book together.All we need is one in the other RAE sites.Going to search out some if my info now and add it hopefully to here. Great posts
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Fascinating Reading
It certainly brought back some memories reading all the posts here..... I too was b@!!@<{£d on several occasions by Reg W and Dougie B in my apprentice days...... I still remember the talking to that I received about my log book and the answers I gave at the time, and my amazement to be presented with the Apprentice Logbook Prize that year by a certain Mr J Farley!
I went to the FAST Museum the other week and that was like a trip down memory lane..... some of the great planes I worked many happy hours on are stood there on display.
I went to the FAST Museum the other week and that was like a trip down memory lane..... some of the great planes I worked many happy hours on are stood there on display.
Do a Hover - it avoids G
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Chichester West Sussex UK
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Golly how lucky my generation was.
The other day somebody asked me something about July 1966 which I could not remember without getting out my logbook. I post the summary page for that month not in any bragging sense but to remind people what it was like to work at RAE then.
I say again how lucky my generation was to be allowed to do our jobs without the sort of restrictive approvals and oversight today’s pilot's talk about.
I say again how lucky my generation was to be allowed to do our jobs without the sort of restrictive approvals and oversight today’s pilot's talk about.
At Farnborough, Flt Lt Ken Mills could captain the Comet, BAC 111, Hastings and Andover. One day after morning briefing, in the minibus taking us across the airfield to his aircraft for the morning, he was heard to be muttering 'two props and a nosewheel, two props and a nosewheel' in order to remind himself which aircraft to get into!
Ken was the only pilot who could land the Comet '914 without any discernable puff of smoke from the tyres.
It was quite normal for the 'fast jet' specialists to be current on Hunter, Jaguar, Buccaneer, the Devons of Transport Flight and Wessex helicopter, and one of the IAM pilots, a USAF doctor who normally flew the Hunter, was an authorised co-pilot on the BAC111.
Ken was the only pilot who could land the Comet '914 without any discernable puff of smoke from the tyres.
It was quite normal for the 'fast jet' specialists to be current on Hunter, Jaguar, Buccaneer, the Devons of Transport Flight and Wessex helicopter, and one of the IAM pilots, a USAF doctor who normally flew the Hunter, was an authorised co-pilot on the BAC111.
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Farnborough 2016
I'm just here to put people's minds at rest. I'm a security worker 2016 at the airfield and the building G21 (the sheds at the end of runway 24) still holds all the archives for the Rae. No skips etc. I could lose myself in there if I had the equipment to convert everything to digital format..... Reels of film. Negatives and finally the hand written notes of test pilots. Become a trustee of the farnborough air sciences trust or FAST and gain access and help share all this stuff. After all its farnborough's history that we all love. That's why you googled it :-) much love, Albert out