Dam Buster re run
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: New South Wales
Posts: 1,794
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Personally, I thought that there was a lot of very good CRM being displayed - particularly by the quietly assertive 'captain'.
QDM
Webpilot,
I wouldn't believe all you read on the RAF Waddington website. Scampton was not parented by Waddington and OC RAFAT is not the "effective station commander"; Wg Cdr RAFAT would be most disgruntled to learn that he was bypassed in the chain of command! Museum is run by a FS from RAFAT but apart from that all the info on the Waddington website is 100% spot on.
In addition to the Hunter Aircraft Co, Vosper Thorneycroft Aerospace lease Hangar 1 for Tucano maintenance.
I wouldn't believe all you read on the RAF Waddington website. Scampton was not parented by Waddington and OC RAFAT is not the "effective station commander"; Wg Cdr RAFAT would be most disgruntled to learn that he was bypassed in the chain of command! Museum is run by a FS from RAFAT but apart from that all the info on the Waddington website is 100% spot on.
In addition to the Hunter Aircraft Co, Vosper Thorneycroft Aerospace lease Hangar 1 for Tucano maintenance.
Hi
Re the closure of RAF SCAMPTON a few years ago,I was told that before it went into Care and Maint the grave of "******" the dog was opened up and the remains were re-interned at another RAFv site ???? :
Did anyone else hear this or was it just a figment of my mind caused by alcohol
Re the closure of RAF SCAMPTON a few years ago,I was told that before it went into Care and Maint the grave of "******" the dog was opened up and the remains were re-interned at another RAFv site ???? :
Did anyone else hear this or was it just a figment of my mind caused by alcohol
There was a memorial site outside 617's hangar at Scampton to 'Nig ger', referred to as 'Nig ger's grave'. But whether the real black Labrador was buried beneath is unlikely.....
It was a JP's secondary duty to look after Nig ger's Grave - weren't you the lucky one, Specaircrew? Whilst we of the rather more senior and infinitely superior 35 Sqn used to pee on Nig ger's Grave when you weren't looking!
It was a JP's secondary duty to look after Nig ger's Grave - weren't you the lucky one, Specaircrew? Whilst we of the rather more senior and infinitely superior 35 Sqn used to pee on Nig ger's Grave when you weren't looking!
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Los Angeles,CA,USA
Posts: 266
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Read a great book recently entitled "Beyond the Dams to the Tirpitz" , in paperback. Great read. As I recall, it was the same No.617 Squadron that carried out that raid, in a Norwegian fjord, back in late '43/early '44.
Did I hear you say RAF Lancs were single-pilot and RCAF Lancs were 2-pilot? Interesting.
What were RAF Stirlings and Halifaxes? I assume 2-pilot.
Cheers...
Did I hear you say RAF Lancs were single-pilot and RCAF Lancs were 2-pilot? Interesting.
What were RAF Stirlings and Halifaxes? I assume 2-pilot.
Cheers...
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Not where I should be...
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From what I understand, the BBMF Lanc was converted to to dual controls when it was brought back to flying conditions in the sixties, as the RAF operate it with pilot and co-pilot (much safer-especially in a display environment). I believe CWH copied this arrange ment when restoring their Lanc in the eighties.
As I say, I THINK this is how it came about, but feel free to correct me.
As I say, I THINK this is how it came about, but feel free to correct me.
B767 both the Halibag and the whirling Stirling were single pilot as was the Lanc in normal configuration.
Did anybody else find the dance music in the background both annoying and inappropriate? I do like dance music when I'm dancing like nobody's watching but as background to a Dambusters recreation, c'mon chaps, Glen Miller would have worked better.
Did anybody else find the dance music in the background both annoying and inappropriate? I do like dance music when I'm dancing like nobody's watching but as background to a Dambusters recreation, c'mon chaps, Glen Miller would have worked better.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Surrey
Age: 67
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I just watched the final part of the programme and I think they could have improved the experience in a couple of ways.
1. Make the crew fly the sim in full wartime flying kit with the a/c suitably cooled to a temp somewhere near what was experienced on the night. (Why did they make the a/c see through? With todays mini-cams they could have skinned it)
and
2. They could have put some feel into the flying controls. Lucy manouvring the 'a/c' as if she was using a toddlers toy steering wheel.
1. Make the crew fly the sim in full wartime flying kit with the a/c suitably cooled to a temp somewhere near what was experienced on the night. (Why did they make the a/c see through? With todays mini-cams they could have skinned it)
and
2. They could have put some feel into the flying controls. Lucy manouvring the 'a/c' as if she was using a toddlers toy steering wheel.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Inverness-shire
Posts: 577
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ignoring the weak parts of the modern "re run" the programme did bring home the incredible flying feats involved in the dams raid, as well as Barnes Wallis' technology.
Doing 200 knots at 60 feet in the dark scares me silly just thinking about it,
never mind diving over steep terrain to get there and then having to pull up to miss a 1000' hill afterwards.
What could the effects on handling been of having 5 tons of bomb rotating at 500 rpm on the aircraft?
And it all brought home the huge price paid in aircrew losses, not only in the dams raid, but afterwards too.
Doing 200 knots at 60 feet in the dark scares me silly just thinking about it,
never mind diving over steep terrain to get there and then having to pull up to miss a 1000' hill afterwards.
What could the effects on handling been of having 5 tons of bomb rotating at 500 rpm on the aircraft?
And it all brought home the huge price paid in aircrew losses, not only in the dams raid, but afterwards too.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Ireland
Posts: 627
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I thought the second episode was the better of the two. It concentrated more on the historical aspects of the raid and less on the re enactment which was to the benefit of the programme.
Actually that re enactment then came into it's own when it highlighted some of the real difficulties the crews faced at the time. I also thought the Navigator played a blinder the whole thing seem to revolve around him in the end. Lucy the pilot did well considering the obvious limitations of the simulator, actually it was more a procedures trainer than a simulator.
The visit of Lucy to a Lanc to see Lettice Curtis while interesting, it seemed to me it served only as a kind of justification in TV terms for Lucy's role as Captain. When is the media going to lose the novelty factor of women pilots????? But in the end I believe it was fair enough to include women in the crew. Women are flying combat missions in a war as I write this. Things have moved on since 1943. I'm not ignoring the fact of female Russian combat pilots in WW2.
I thought the re enactment of the Sorpe attack was a good idea. The main factor at the Mohne dam was the flak which could not be accurately recreated. Wheras the attack simulated placed a premium on the flying skill of the pilot who came up trumps in the end.
In the end I enjoyed it. I found the part where they visited Scampton and the actual briefing room where the raid was introduced to the crews particularly evocative. Will that room be preserved I wonder? It really ought to be.
Actually that re enactment then came into it's own when it highlighted some of the real difficulties the crews faced at the time. I also thought the Navigator played a blinder the whole thing seem to revolve around him in the end. Lucy the pilot did well considering the obvious limitations of the simulator, actually it was more a procedures trainer than a simulator.
The visit of Lucy to a Lanc to see Lettice Curtis while interesting, it seemed to me it served only as a kind of justification in TV terms for Lucy's role as Captain. When is the media going to lose the novelty factor of women pilots????? But in the end I believe it was fair enough to include women in the crew. Women are flying combat missions in a war as I write this. Things have moved on since 1943. I'm not ignoring the fact of female Russian combat pilots in WW2.
I thought the re enactment of the Sorpe attack was a good idea. The main factor at the Mohne dam was the flak which could not be accurately recreated. Wheras the attack simulated placed a premium on the flying skill of the pilot who came up trumps in the end.
In the end I enjoyed it. I found the part where they visited Scampton and the actual briefing room where the raid was introduced to the crews particularly evocative. Will that room be preserved I wonder? It really ought to be.
I agree that the second programme was the more interesting, although I got a bit lost with the boffin from Qinetiq who seemed to prove that dropping a bomb made a splash and his rather laboured explanation of how backspin would keep the bomb against the dam wall.
I was pleased to see that some of the crew had reservations about the fidelity of the exercise, one thought it might be "silly" but they certainly seemed to learn quite a bit from the exercise.
One small point; considering the effort put in to accurately recreating the event, they slipped in a shot of a Manchester when they were talking about 617 departing Scampton at tree top height on the night of the raid.
I was pleased to see that some of the crew had reservations about the fidelity of the exercise, one thought it might be "silly" but they certainly seemed to learn quite a bit from the exercise.
One small point; considering the effort put in to accurately recreating the event, they slipped in a shot of a Manchester when they were talking about 617 departing Scampton at tree top height on the night of the raid.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: On a radial
Posts: 361
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i saw that shot too... the extra fin stuck out like a sore thumb
the second program was by far the best with aspects explained that i have never seen before. the explanation of how the backspin principle had four advantages was particularly interesting. i'd only ever knew about the effect of hugging the dam as it sank, never the shallow angle of bounce, the lessining of the initial impact on the water and the other i forget at the mo....
The courage of Les knight as well was otstanding, letting the crew bail out before flying on himself. I am sure however, any of the crews throught the history of the RAF to this day would do the same thing.
All credit to the new crew, if the programme has made just one more person understand the significance of this raid and indeed the importance of flight in this the centenery year, it can only be a good thing!!!
the second program was by far the best with aspects explained that i have never seen before. the explanation of how the backspin principle had four advantages was particularly interesting. i'd only ever knew about the effect of hugging the dam as it sank, never the shallow angle of bounce, the lessining of the initial impact on the water and the other i forget at the mo.... The courage of Les knight as well was otstanding, letting the crew bail out before flying on himself. I am sure however, any of the crews throught the history of the RAF to this day would do the same thing.
All credit to the new crew, if the programme has made just one more person understand the significance of this raid and indeed the importance of flight in this the centenery year, it can only be a good thing!!!
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Dublin
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I only saw the second prgramme but I have to say I really enjoyed it. While I was already somewhat familiar with the story of the original Dambusters the historical & technical information really highlighted what a difficult, daring and ultimately important mission it actually was.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Surrey, Uk
Age: 72
Posts: 1,585
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you are in Woodhall Spa, Lincs. visiting the Dambusters Memorial in the village suggest you make a visit to the Petwood Hotel. It can be found on the Horncastle road out of Woodhall on the left hand side. During WW2 it was the 617 Sqd. Officers Mess. Inside, they have a Squadron Bar dedicated to 617 Sqd. It is not always open but if you ask on reception somebody will open it for you and you can look at all the exhibits. It is a small museum. Above the bar is a branch of a pine tree collected by a 617 Lancaster after returning from the raid on the Tirpitz. ( I think ) Although my parents live in Woodhall Spa and I visit regularly, I am ashamed to say it is several years since I visited the Squadron Bar. Last time I was there, there were the remains of a bouncing bomb in the hotel gardens. Well worth a visit. Food and ale good too !!
Mr G.
Mr G.
Seconded Mr G, an interesting hotel to stay in - if a little dusty. Mrs Wub and I noticed that the wooden table in our room needed a polish so we drew a couple of dog's paw prints and wrote
'Ni gg er was here' in the dust, when we left
'Ni gg er was here' in the dust, when we left
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: SX in SX in UK
Posts: 1,082
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I celebrated my 40th birthday in The Petwood Hotel.................
(Hows that for useless info!)
I was a bit confused by the chap firing scale models of the bomb at '100's of mph', surely if you scale the size of the bomb down, you have to scale the impact velocity down too?
(Hows that for useless info!)
I was a bit confused by the chap firing scale models of the bomb at '100's of mph', surely if you scale the size of the bomb down, you have to scale the impact velocity down too?
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: On a radial
Posts: 361
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kolibear,
That is correct, however, i don't remember them spinning the bomb on the scaled down setup... which could mean 2 things a) they would have to fire it at an even slower speed to mimic the cushioning of the spinning or b) would firing at a high velocity make the bounce shallower hence less impact?? any physicists out there????????????????????????????? A level physics hasn't really helped me!! C
Colleague gave a ray of light..... the water has a specific surface tension/viscosity, if you scale the system down by say 25% that would mean that water would effectively become 400X more "sticky" hence the projectile would have to be fired at 400X the actual speed to counteract the viscosity of the water.... any better??
That is correct, however, i don't remember them spinning the bomb on the scaled down setup... which could mean 2 things a) they would have to fire it at an even slower speed to mimic the cushioning of the spinning or b) would firing at a high velocity make the bounce shallower hence less impact?? any physicists out there????????????????????????????? A level physics hasn't really helped me!! C
Colleague gave a ray of light..... the water has a specific surface tension/viscosity, if you scale the system down by say 25% that would mean that water would effectively become 400X more "sticky" hence the projectile would have to be fired at 400X the actual speed to counteract the viscosity of the water.... any better??