MMMmmmiles Aircraft
Gnome de PPRuNe
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No it's a different Ian Dalziel.
Happy New Year to you too, ATB!
Cheers
Treadders
Happy New Year to you too, ATB!
Cheers
Treadders
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Monarch
Hi TD&H,
It would be a nutter indeed who spent £200k on a restoration, only to give most of it away immediately to the new owner.
If I took on something like that I would expect to be cremated in it - Viking style!
Seriously though, there are a number of aircraft out there for sale for just a fraction of the cost of rebuild. One that springs to mind is the pretty little wooden Sokol (have I got that right?) retractable.
It was advertised extensively last year - likely no takers(?) and possibly still for sale. I think it was around £37k.
The classic car thing is the same.
My DB5 is probably worth £50k but would cost twice that or even more to rebuild to its present condition. (I paid £1500 for it but thats a story that takes us off-topic!).
Unlike cars though, there is a very limited market for obscure and expensive-to operate flying machines. Great news for nutters like me but not if you need to sell, especially if you are in any hurry.
I am not sure when Gordon Spooners beautiful Messenger G-AJWC, a concours ground-up rebuild, will come up for sale. However, his latest Navion project is progressing well and the Messenger will at some stage be sold I guess.
It cost him - without any exaggeration, a billion pounds to do...
Oh yes, and a squillion man hours beavering away in his workshop.
Exquisite.
HP
It would be a nutter indeed who spent £200k on a restoration, only to give most of it away immediately to the new owner.
If I took on something like that I would expect to be cremated in it - Viking style!
Seriously though, there are a number of aircraft out there for sale for just a fraction of the cost of rebuild. One that springs to mind is the pretty little wooden Sokol (have I got that right?) retractable.
It was advertised extensively last year - likely no takers(?) and possibly still for sale. I think it was around £37k.
The classic car thing is the same.
My DB5 is probably worth £50k but would cost twice that or even more to rebuild to its present condition. (I paid £1500 for it but thats a story that takes us off-topic!).
Unlike cars though, there is a very limited market for obscure and expensive-to operate flying machines. Great news for nutters like me but not if you need to sell, especially if you are in any hurry.
I am not sure when Gordon Spooners beautiful Messenger G-AJWC, a concours ground-up rebuild, will come up for sale. However, his latest Navion project is progressing well and the Messenger will at some stage be sold I guess.
It cost him - without any exaggeration, a billion pounds to do...
Oh yes, and a squillion man hours beavering away in his workshop.
Exquisite.
HP
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Hi Hairyplane
From my own experience of helping to rebuild expensive warbirds, and my own puddle-jumper I know exactly what you mean. Still a comment about your wish to spend vast amounts on such a project seemed appropriate at the time.
I know of Gordon's aeroplanes, and the effort he is putting into them also. Didn't quite realise he was spending quite so many squillions on his projects though! Will be good to see the Navion flying.
Must rush off and put another pound on the lottery, but at only a few million pounds first prize, it won't be enough to buy one of your billion dollar aeroplanes! There again it might be better spent on a ticket at OW to win a flight in their Maggie.
Happy flying
From my own experience of helping to rebuild expensive warbirds, and my own puddle-jumper I know exactly what you mean. Still a comment about your wish to spend vast amounts on such a project seemed appropriate at the time.
I know of Gordon's aeroplanes, and the effort he is putting into them also. Didn't quite realise he was spending quite so many squillions on his projects though! Will be good to see the Navion flying.
Must rush off and put another pound on the lottery, but at only a few million pounds first prize, it won't be enough to buy one of your billion dollar aeroplanes! There again it might be better spent on a ticket at OW to win a flight in their Maggie.
Happy flying
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The Monarch is a classic though perhaps not the best looking of the Miles stable.Guess HP,s figures for a total rebuild aren,t far wide of the mark.I would guess for a complete rebuild/reglue to concours at a suitably qualified facility.
2000 man hours minimum @£25 per hour minimum=£50000
Gypsy major total rebuild £20000
materials minimum £10000
miscellaneous remanufacture of items like undercarriage say£10000
Theres £90k easy,and very possible to go way beyond.Of course if you wanted to , had the ability and could get an engineer to sign the work off big savings could be made in exchange for years of leisure time.Then again the restoration would lack the quodos of having been completed by one of the recognised names and would have to stand on its own excellence.I seem to recall seeing the the PFA had recently accepted a pre war restoration project of a wooden aircraft under their auspices which surprised me greatly presumably it was not eligible for a CofA. was it a Miles aircraft can anyone recollect??
2000 man hours minimum @£25 per hour minimum=£50000
Gypsy major total rebuild £20000
materials minimum £10000
miscellaneous remanufacture of items like undercarriage say£10000
Theres £90k easy,and very possible to go way beyond.Of course if you wanted to , had the ability and could get an engineer to sign the work off big savings could be made in exchange for years of leisure time.Then again the restoration would lack the quodos of having been completed by one of the recognised names and would have to stand on its own excellence.I seem to recall seeing the the PFA had recently accepted a pre war restoration project of a wooden aircraft under their auspices which surprised me greatly presumably it was not eligible for a CofA. was it a Miles aircraft can anyone recollect??
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Geting off the Miles thread for a second, I am desperately waiting for Bob Mitchells SAI KZ-8, G-AYKZ either to be sold on to a serious restorer, or restored by it's owner to flying condition. It's a shame that it's only one of two original KZ-8s around, yet languishes in a hangar among other classics including a Miles Hawk Major I believe going rotten.
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Bob Mitchell
Hi Zlin,
Whats a KZ8 pardon my ignorance?
The Bob Mitchell story has been posted on this thread before so if you are stuck for some reading on a wet day......!
Basically, he owns 2 Miles Aircraft - or what's left of them - in that same hangar. One is a Witney Straight and the other is a Monarch.
He is in the same mould as Dr Ian Dalziel, the owner of the rotting Monarch at White Waltham.
Both own rare fragments of our aviation heritage, neither will restore them to fly, neither will communicate with anybody about their aircraft or even consider selling them on, both are happy to let them rot....
The KZ8 population will undoubtedly reduce to one when Bob M's example finally rots into the floor of a building I am told is barely deservant of the term.
A strange world we live in.
All the best
HP
Whats a KZ8 pardon my ignorance?
The Bob Mitchell story has been posted on this thread before so if you are stuck for some reading on a wet day......!
Basically, he owns 2 Miles Aircraft - or what's left of them - in that same hangar. One is a Witney Straight and the other is a Monarch.
He is in the same mould as Dr Ian Dalziel, the owner of the rotting Monarch at White Waltham.
Both own rare fragments of our aviation heritage, neither will restore them to fly, neither will communicate with anybody about their aircraft or even consider selling them on, both are happy to let them rot....
The KZ8 population will undoubtedly reduce to one when Bob M's example finally rots into the floor of a building I am told is barely deservant of the term.
A strange world we live in.
All the best
HP
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Could it be, that these gentilmen referred to, are not selling their aircraft because they think they are SO valuable and are resoning their value will only increase as time goes by? I've seen quite a few of that type in my (admittedly, short) time in aviation. People that have the mindset, are usually completely ignorant of the fact that they are destroying their prized aircraft and reducing their prize to almost nothing.
Good luck trying to get the aircraft.
Good luck trying to get the aircraft.
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KZ8 G-AYKZ... a rather spiffy looking mini-Chipmunk sort of thing from the Danish KZ range of various rather spiffy looking things.
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KZ8 quite a looker seem to remember seeing it display impressively at Rochester back in the late 60s early 70 s any of you aero-historians recall the date??.Somehow airshows seemed more diverse and exciting in those days .Must just be getting old.
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Hi Hairyplane,
Others have described the KZ8. Not a classic by any means, but nonetheless, a rare type. A great shame for ANY vintage aircraft to be left to rot, but what drives the owners to neglect them? Obviously lack of time or money to some extent, but why not pass them on to others who are willing to put them back into the air.
At my local airfield, there is a Jodel D140 that has been at the back of the hangar since 1986 or so. A classic if ever there was one, the aircraft is now sitting with flat tyres, no fabric on the wings and under a leaking roof, the owner resisting all attempts by others to buy it, so it will surely end it's days there.
Others have described the KZ8. Not a classic by any means, but nonetheless, a rare type. A great shame for ANY vintage aircraft to be left to rot, but what drives the owners to neglect them? Obviously lack of time or money to some extent, but why not pass them on to others who are willing to put them back into the air.
At my local airfield, there is a Jodel D140 that has been at the back of the hangar since 1986 or so. A classic if ever there was one, the aircraft is now sitting with flat tyres, no fabric on the wings and under a leaking roof, the owner resisting all attempts by others to buy it, so it will surely end it's days there.
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Strange people....
Hi Z,
THere are some wierd people about.
I have known many aircraft over the years that have sat neglected, owners dismissing all offers to buy them.
Your Jodel - great machine ( I have a Robin Regent) - should be touring around Europe (or on skis in and out of Altiports...?!).
I think I know it. If not, there is one languishing in similar circumstances @ Headcorn.
Such strange behaviour is of course not limited to aviation. We can all relate similar stories, be it cars, boats or WHY?
I take my responsibilities seriously - I am fortunate enough to be the temporary custodian of 2 very rare old wooden planes. All I can promise to do is lavish as much money and care on them as possible, allow as many people as possible to see them fly and, thereafter (hopefully with a few more years of flying left in me) ensure that they are passed on to like minded people.
Nowt so queer as folk....
VBR
HP
THere are some wierd people about.
I have known many aircraft over the years that have sat neglected, owners dismissing all offers to buy them.
Your Jodel - great machine ( I have a Robin Regent) - should be touring around Europe (or on skis in and out of Altiports...?!).
I think I know it. If not, there is one languishing in similar circumstances @ Headcorn.
Such strange behaviour is of course not limited to aviation. We can all relate similar stories, be it cars, boats or WHY?
I take my responsibilities seriously - I am fortunate enough to be the temporary custodian of 2 very rare old wooden planes. All I can promise to do is lavish as much money and care on them as possible, allow as many people as possible to see them fly and, thereafter (hopefully with a few more years of flying left in me) ensure that they are passed on to like minded people.
Nowt so queer as folk....
VBR
HP
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Talking of crimes against aeroplanes, there has been a high back Mk16 Spitfire sitting in the private owner's hangar at Halton for a few years now. Completly covered in dust, cowling panels hanging off, tyres flat....
Surely if you can afford to buy one, you can afford to keep it?
Surely if you can afford to buy one, you can afford to keep it?
"Trust Me"
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"Surely if you can afford to buy one, you can afford to keep it?"
Buying one is the (relatively) easy bit.....how about £40-60,000 to overhaul the VP prop at Dowty Rotol for starters...??
DOC
Buying one is the (relatively) easy bit.....how about £40-60,000 to overhaul the VP prop at Dowty Rotol for starters...??
DOC
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At the request of HP a cut and paste into the main thread of a great reminisce from Speedbird 48 now residing in America of his MMMMMMMMiles MMMMMmoments.thanks for sharing them with us!!!
MMMmmmiles aircraft
Today is a day for memories and I would like to add what little I know about various Miles airplanes.
I was a boy at Denham in the early/mid '50's where the club operated G-AFBS and G-AJZH. I went solo in ''BS and have paid it a state visit at Duxford where it was being rebuilt. 'ZH didn't make it as Janet Fergusons mother, at a late age, force landed on a disused airfield in East Anglia that had been dug up and was covered in broken lumps of concrete.
Also at Denham at the time was the Airways Aero Club and they had several Maggies in the G-AKK? series. I later helped Roy Mills operate G-AKKR from Elstree and I last saw it at the museum in Manchester. I was responsible for the non-standard venturis underneath it and the modified instrument panels that it still has.
Alf Carey owned G-AIUA and an Auster Arrow, G-AJAM that I frequently rode in to breakfast patrols. Alf bought a Miles Mercury from Switzerland which he later force landed when a rag caught fire under the cowling. I believe the inquiry showed that he was minus some essential paperwork?
The Maggie was a great machine and a good trainer that has held me in good stead for 13,000hrs. Stalls usually followed by a spin was a very interesting deal and a flat spin was even more of a gripping experience. I owe a lot to Wilbur Wright, Yvonne Pope, Eddy Hewitt and others for getting me along the right track with the help of a great airplane.
MMMmmmiles aircraft
Today is a day for memories and I would like to add what little I know about various Miles airplanes.
I was a boy at Denham in the early/mid '50's where the club operated G-AFBS and G-AJZH. I went solo in ''BS and have paid it a state visit at Duxford where it was being rebuilt. 'ZH didn't make it as Janet Fergusons mother, at a late age, force landed on a disused airfield in East Anglia that had been dug up and was covered in broken lumps of concrete.
Also at Denham at the time was the Airways Aero Club and they had several Maggies in the G-AKK? series. I later helped Roy Mills operate G-AKKR from Elstree and I last saw it at the museum in Manchester. I was responsible for the non-standard venturis underneath it and the modified instrument panels that it still has.
Alf Carey owned G-AIUA and an Auster Arrow, G-AJAM that I frequently rode in to breakfast patrols. Alf bought a Miles Mercury from Switzerland which he later force landed when a rag caught fire under the cowling. I believe the inquiry showed that he was minus some essential paperwork?
The Maggie was a great machine and a good trainer that has held me in good stead for 13,000hrs. Stalls usually followed by a spin was a very interesting deal and a flat spin was even more of a gripping experience. I owe a lot to Wilbur Wright, Yvonne Pope, Eddy Hewitt and others for getting me along the right track with the help of a great airplane.
rotting airframes
Hairyplane and z
Following your sad recounting of the fate of old classics I have recently retrieved the reminents of a B A Eagle VH-UUY which rotted on Bathurst aerodrome for many years untill the back of the aeroplane broke and only some wing fittings and a decayed centre section left.
The story was the same, many resonable offers went unheeded untill it was to late.
Following your sad recounting of the fate of old classics I have recently retrieved the reminents of a B A Eagle VH-UUY which rotted on Bathurst aerodrome for many years untill the back of the aeroplane broke and only some wing fittings and a decayed centre section left.
The story was the same, many resonable offers went unheeded untill it was to late.