ATC glider solos
Narrowing the possibilities
Hi Dave, Nice to see that the 'best value for money training machine' ever built (TMK3) still going ok. Your info 'quest' can be narrowed down as follows.
The Tot no of launches in 63 would include a hefty amount of AE input as this was a normal 'task' for schools by by then and eventually getting more efficient when the retrieve trolleys started to appear.
The 'schools' mainly ran w-end operations, plus continuous courses (usually Easter and summer) as staffing allowed.
The two Gliding Centres ran week long A&B courses as the norm, plus occasional instructor upgrades and training.
The peak years would have been before the intro of the Venture, and when the two centres were still operating, and also before we started to loose ATC airfields around the country. 63 would have been a good average that may have improved, as with more AE flying Cadets were exposed to Gliding earlier than before and consequently encouraged to do the A&B course plus the chance of advanced flying at Halesland.
As the Cadets usually claimed the Cert and enamel broach from the BGA this would also be a source of info.
Re the actual 'numbers' for the prescribed 3 solo's (A&B) I seem to recall the min required for the ATC was 19 training and 2 check flights, then you did 3 solo's on the trot. That was based on a 'continuous' situation, as w-end training was far more spread out with weather and availability plus 'gaps' for other reasons and could easily be over 30 launches for the same Cadet capability. I was lucky with Kenley (still going 615) being my local 'school' and can remember being quite shocked when we lost Tangmere, Manston, West Malling, Old Sarum, Weston, in a seemingly downward spiral. What we never lost was the legacy of being the best World Class basic training operation in the world (run by volunteers). Never to be repeated or improved upon. Not to mention those NAFFI pies at the winch end.
The Tot no of launches in 63 would include a hefty amount of AE input as this was a normal 'task' for schools by by then and eventually getting more efficient when the retrieve trolleys started to appear.
The 'schools' mainly ran w-end operations, plus continuous courses (usually Easter and summer) as staffing allowed.
The two Gliding Centres ran week long A&B courses as the norm, plus occasional instructor upgrades and training.
The peak years would have been before the intro of the Venture, and when the two centres were still operating, and also before we started to loose ATC airfields around the country. 63 would have been a good average that may have improved, as with more AE flying Cadets were exposed to Gliding earlier than before and consequently encouraged to do the A&B course plus the chance of advanced flying at Halesland.
As the Cadets usually claimed the Cert and enamel broach from the BGA this would also be a source of info.
Re the actual 'numbers' for the prescribed 3 solo's (A&B) I seem to recall the min required for the ATC was 19 training and 2 check flights, then you did 3 solo's on the trot. That was based on a 'continuous' situation, as w-end training was far more spread out with weather and availability plus 'gaps' for other reasons and could easily be over 30 launches for the same Cadet capability. I was lucky with Kenley (still going 615) being my local 'school' and can remember being quite shocked when we lost Tangmere, Manston, West Malling, Old Sarum, Weston, in a seemingly downward spiral. What we never lost was the legacy of being the best World Class basic training operation in the world (run by volunteers). Never to be repeated or improved upon. Not to mention those NAFFI pies at the winch end.
Lovely picture Dave 
I have just checked my old logbook and see I actually started my w/e course at 644 Spitalgate on 29th march '69 with 4 Lchs,then 3 Lchs on April 20th followed by some really consistent flying in June - interestingly I see I had 3 solo check flights towards the end of june but I guess that might have been to bring my dual flying up to min number of Launches for solo.
I remember some things about the course very clearly but other stuff very hazy - I remember the song played ad nauseum on the naafi juke box by the u/t WAAF's was 'Breaking up is hard to do'
,looking at the dates I guess I stayed over in one of the barrack blocks a couple of times.I really cannot remember how we travelled up to Spitalgate from Peterborough as we did not have a sqn minibus,I do remember a couple of trips with our CO as he had access to cars from his car dealership but don't think they were gliding related trips,one of those car trips was to Cottesmore for some reason.
As to cadet solo numbers I do remember that the majority of our older/senior/staff cadets had gliding 'wings' and of course in those days they were all awarded for actual solo flying not just for training courses.I think the only senior cadet without wings had a slight eye problem - although I do not remember any sort of medical examination before the gliding course ?
I have just checked my old logbook and see I actually started my w/e course at 644 Spitalgate on 29th march '69 with 4 Lchs,then 3 Lchs on April 20th followed by some really consistent flying in June - interestingly I see I had 3 solo check flights towards the end of june but I guess that might have been to bring my dual flying up to min number of Launches for solo.
I remember some things about the course very clearly but other stuff very hazy - I remember the song played ad nauseum on the naafi juke box by the u/t WAAF's was 'Breaking up is hard to do'
,looking at the dates I guess I stayed over in one of the barrack blocks a couple of times.I really cannot remember how we travelled up to Spitalgate from Peterborough as we did not have a sqn minibus,I do remember a couple of trips with our CO as he had access to cars from his car dealership but don't think they were gliding related trips,one of those car trips was to Cottesmore for some reason.As to cadet solo numbers I do remember that the majority of our older/senior/staff cadets had gliding 'wings' and of course in those days they were all awarded for actual solo flying not just for training courses.I think the only senior cadet without wings had a slight eye problem - although I do not remember any sort of medical examination before the gliding course ?
I was lucky with Kenley (still going 615) being my local 'school' and can remember being quite shocked when we lost Tangmere, Manston, West Malling, Old Sarum, Weston, in a seemingly downward spiral. What we never lost was the legacy of being the best World Class basic training operation in the world (run by volunteers). Never to be repeated or improved upon. Not to mention those NAFFI pies at the winch end.
612: Originally formed at White Waltham as HQAC Glider Flight before HQAC moved to Brampton in about '71; spent a short while as a detached flight of 613 (Halton) and moved to Benson shortly before being assigned its number. When Abingdon closed, the UAS and AEF moved to Benson displacing 612 to Halton for about 2 years thence to Abingdon until it was disbanded 2016.
613: Based at Halton from the '40s and operated the aforementioned D/F at White Waltham along with occasional detachments to Bovingdon where I got my 'C' cert; operated alongside 612 before that school moved to Abingdon and then disbanded in 2016.
614: Wethersfield. Disbanded.
615: Operating again as normal.
616: Based at Henlow; disbanded 2016.
617: Originally based at Hendon. When this airfield closed, moved to Bovingdon and when that airfield closed, moved to Manston. Disbanded 2016.
618: West Malling. When that airfield closed a few abortive tries were made at re-establishing it at local civilian airfelds notably Challock but then moved to Odiham. Disbanded 2016.
623: Tangmere. Originally based at White Waltham but disbanded in 1960. Resurrected at Tangmere in 1963. Appears to have ceased operations in 1975.
By no means an exhaustive list; many VGS disbanded in the south east hence a massive 'hole' in potential catchment areas as well as a loss of all that knowledge and experience.
Others I know about:
622: I believe this Sqdn is operating once again at Upavon.
637: In the mid '60s we at Halton were offered the chance to help form a new GS at Gaydon and when that airfield closed 637 moved to Little Rissington which by this time was Army. Billeted at South Cerney for accomodation and messing but did not operate with the resident 621 VGS. Now re-formed at Little Rissington and operating alongside 625(?) which was displaced when Hullavington closed.
Having been a Staff Cadet/G1 grade pilot (P2 at it used to be), I was appointed WGLO between Herts & Bucks Wing ATC at 612 VGS, then took over responsibilites for 613 and for a short time for 616.
Any corrections/amendments please feel free.
Last edited by chevvron; 6th Nov 2023 at 11:58.
Thread Starter
Thanks for all the feedback folks, still nothing from ATC HQ though. For everyone who had a go in a '31, here's a great Keith Wilson pic from a photoshoot we did a few years ago.
It'd never been so high!
It'd never been so high!
The RAFROs who mostly operate HQAC are only there for a few years then move on to other things so there's a constant turnover of staff hence there is no 'pool' of memories from the past.
I presume there are records kept somewhere but where they are kept (Kew?) and how often they are 'purged' of dead wood there is no way of knowing. To illustrate, we all know that GRP glider servicing records were only kept by SERCO for a couple of years before being destroyed.
I presume there are records kept somewhere but where they are kept (Kew?) and how often they are 'purged' of dead wood there is no way of knowing. To illustrate, we all know that GRP glider servicing records were only kept by SERCO for a couple of years before being destroyed.
Been there done that !!!
Anyone in management needing 'decision making training' just give them a few rides in one of these, and then some low level cable breaks to sharpen up the process. Better than a uni course. PC (The advanced training could include a fire warning bell and red light) just to keep them alert. We had it and chucked it all away.
Last edited by POBJOY; 6th Nov 2023 at 16:04. Reason: content
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Harumph.
'Clear of cloud and in sight of the surface?'
Until about 1977 when some major changes to airspace were introduced, it would have been possible to fly VFR as high as 5000ft amsl overhead Kenley. The base of controlled airspace at Kenley nowadays is 2,500ft amsl; when I got my 'C' at Bovingdon in 1966, you could fly up to 5,000ft amsl overhead but only if VFR, the base of controlled airspace was 1,500ft amsl
POBJOY: I would imagine that the medium cable break at Kenley would be the 'stinger' with such a small airfield; a low one shouldn't be so much of a problem.
'Clear of cloud and in sight of the surface?'
Until about 1977 when some major changes to airspace were introduced, it would have been possible to fly VFR as high as 5000ft amsl overhead Kenley. The base of controlled airspace at Kenley nowadays is 2,500ft amsl; when I got my 'C' at Bovingdon in 1966, you could fly up to 5,000ft amsl overhead but only if VFR, the base of controlled airspace was 1,500ft amslPOBJOY: I would imagine that the medium cable break at Kenley would be the 'stinger' with such a small airfield; a low one shouldn't be so much of a problem.
Last edited by chevvron; 7th Nov 2023 at 05:49.
Don't know if this article is of interest Dave but it does give some Stats for No1 GC (Swanton Morley)
Excerpt from this website .....
https://hang-out.co.uk/uploads/RAF-S...structions.pdf
Excerpt from this website .....
https://hang-out.co.uk/uploads/RAF-S...structions.pdf
NO 1 GLIDING CENTRE
No 1 Gliding Centre was originally formed at Detling, Kent, as Home Command Gliding Instructors' School. Its task was to train instructors for all the Air Training Corps weekend Gliding Schools at the time of the expansion of the organisation. With completion of that task, the Unit moved to Hawkinge in 1956, taking on its present commitment, and came to Swanton Morley in January 1962, when Hawkinge closed.
The Centre is not only responsible for training ATC and CCF Cadets to the ATC Proficiency and Advanced Gliding Standard each year, but also trains gliding instructors required by the weekend Schools.
In addition, each Gliding School in the Southern half of England is inspected at least three times a year, and all their instructors tested to see that they maintain safe standards. Finally, one Primary Glider Instructors' Course is run each year.
In the fourteen years ended 31st December 1969, the unit completed the following:-
Launches - 228,563
Flying Hours - 228,563
Cadets Trained - 5,088
No 1 Gliding Centre was originally formed at Detling, Kent, as Home Command Gliding Instructors' School. Its task was to train instructors for all the Air Training Corps weekend Gliding Schools at the time of the expansion of the organisation. With completion of that task, the Unit moved to Hawkinge in 1956, taking on its present commitment, and came to Swanton Morley in January 1962, when Hawkinge closed.
The Centre is not only responsible for training ATC and CCF Cadets to the ATC Proficiency and Advanced Gliding Standard each year, but also trains gliding instructors required by the weekend Schools.
In addition, each Gliding School in the Southern half of England is inspected at least three times a year, and all their instructors tested to see that they maintain safe standards. Finally, one Primary Glider Instructors' Course is run each year.
In the fourteen years ended 31st December 1969, the unit completed the following:-
Launches - 228,563
Flying Hours - 228,563
Cadets Trained - 5,088
Last edited by longer ron; 7th Nov 2023 at 07:10.
Some familiar nemes from No1 GC staff
Sqn Ldr Curtis did my check for P2 during a 'trapper' visit to 613 Halton - a really nice guy
I also met Robin Miller but never flew with him.
Sqn Ldr Curtis did my check for P2 during a 'trapper' visit to 613 Halton - a really nice guy
I also met Robin Miller but never flew with him.
YOUR INSTRUCTORS
Sqn Ldr D.J. CURTIS, MBE Officer Commanding, A flying instructor since 1944, instructing on fourteen different types of aircraft ranging from Tiger Moth to Hunter Mk VII including Mosquito, Meteor and Varsity. Arrived No. 1 Gliding Centre January 1970 from No. 21 Squadron Air Support Command flying Pembroke and Devon aircraft.
Flt Lt I.LADLEY Chief Flying Instructor. Wartime Fighter Pilot. Flying Instructor since 1949. Flown gliders in Germany and Canada. Joined the Unit in 1954. Flt Lt D.G.KING Wartime service pilot. Has flown gliders in Germany, Canada and Spain. An ATC Gliding Instructor since 1949.
Flt Lt N.J.MACLEOD OC 'B' Flight. Wartime Transport Command Navigator. Began gliding in Germany 1949. ATC Instructor since 1950. OC No.663 Gliding School Abbotsinch prior to joining this Unit.
Flt Lt S.J.EASTON OC 'A' Flight. Started gliding as ATC cadet i n 1956. Staff Cadet at 616 Gliding School 1958. Instructor with 616 from 1960 until appointed to the staff of No. 1 Gliding Centre in 1966.
Flt Lt R.W.A.MILLER Learned to glide as cadet at No. 613 Gliding School, Halton, in 1957. Staff Cadet and then instructor until 1967 when appointed to the staff of No. 1 Gliding Centre.
Flt Lt A.C.POND Began gliding in 1945 as Subsequently served with Nos. 129, 142, 614 School as Instructor until appointed to No1 GC n 1967.
Between them, the Instructors of the Unit have completed over 105,000 launches.
Sqn Ldr D.J. CURTIS, MBE Officer Commanding, A flying instructor since 1944, instructing on fourteen different types of aircraft ranging from Tiger Moth to Hunter Mk VII including Mosquito, Meteor and Varsity. Arrived No. 1 Gliding Centre January 1970 from No. 21 Squadron Air Support Command flying Pembroke and Devon aircraft.
Flt Lt I.LADLEY Chief Flying Instructor. Wartime Fighter Pilot. Flying Instructor since 1949. Flown gliders in Germany and Canada. Joined the Unit in 1954. Flt Lt D.G.KING Wartime service pilot. Has flown gliders in Germany, Canada and Spain. An ATC Gliding Instructor since 1949.
Flt Lt N.J.MACLEOD OC 'B' Flight. Wartime Transport Command Navigator. Began gliding in Germany 1949. ATC Instructor since 1950. OC No.663 Gliding School Abbotsinch prior to joining this Unit.
Flt Lt S.J.EASTON OC 'A' Flight. Started gliding as ATC cadet i n 1956. Staff Cadet at 616 Gliding School 1958. Instructor with 616 from 1960 until appointed to the staff of No. 1 Gliding Centre in 1966.
Flt Lt R.W.A.MILLER Learned to glide as cadet at No. 613 Gliding School, Halton, in 1957. Staff Cadet and then instructor until 1967 when appointed to the staff of No. 1 Gliding Centre.
Flt Lt A.C.POND Began gliding in 1945 as Subsequently served with Nos. 129, 142, 614 School as Instructor until appointed to No1 GC n 1967.
Between them, the Instructors of the Unit have completed over 105,000 launches.
615 Gliding School RAF Kenley
Until about 1977 when some major changes to airspace were introduced, it would have been possible to fly VFR as high as 5000ft amsl overhead Kenley.
It was rather a strange (and unusual) feeling being so far above the sights of London, I remember seeing a VC10 below us on it's way into Heathrow! With 20/20 hindsight it was probably a good (and safe) idea to introduce the height restriction for Kenley!
On the rare occasions when we were on the rota to have the Swallow and trailer we decided to make good use of it and carry out instructor flying mid week. I successfully managed my Silver C distance flight by flying between the London and Gatwick zones down to Lasham.
Great picture Dave, brought back so many memories.
Of course I knew Robin Miller very well and flew with him frequently especially after I was a 'bad boy' and landed '275 in the small field (the one on the right as you approached from the main camp) next to the airfield; my check flight with Robin (CFI as I remember after Phil Plows retired) was carried out in silence apart from remarking when he got out 'speed was only 43 kts on final'. You also had to make sure when flying with Robin that you got the stick well back for landing; god forbid you let the main skid touch the ground!
Last edited by chevvron; 7th Nov 2023 at 09:31.
Harumph.
'Clear of cloud and in sight of the surface?' Until about 1977 when some major changes to airspace were introduced, it would have been possible to fly VFR as high as 5000ft amsl overhead Kenley. The base of controlled airspace at Kenley nowadays is 2,500ft amsl; when I got my 'C' at Bovingdon in 1966, you could fly up to 5,000ft amsl overhead but only if VFR, the base of controlled airspace was 1,500ft amsl
POBJOY: I would imagine that the medium cable break at Kenley would be the 'stinger' with such a small airfield; a low one shouldn't be so much of a problem.
'Clear of cloud and in sight of the surface?'
Until about 1977 when some major changes to airspace were introduced, it would have been possible to fly VFR as high as 5000ft amsl overhead Kenley. The base of controlled airspace at Kenley nowadays is 2,500ft amsl; when I got my 'C' at Bovingdon in 1966, you could fly up to 5,000ft amsl overhead but only if VFR, the base of controlled airspace was 1,500ft amslPOBJOY: I would imagine that the medium cable break at Kenley would be the 'stinger' with such a small airfield; a low one shouldn't be so much of a problem.
Well Chev when it was your base site it was the norm. But Kenley was quite small by most RAF station standards (not suitable for Jet extension) and on a medium break it was as I recall quite important to turn in the correct direction. We did reduce the chances of a CB on a first solo by always using a new cable for this purpose, hence by dint of common sense and experience 'we actually performed a safer operation' now called ALARP 'as low as risk possible'. Quick thread creep as at this time watching a program on the Pegasus Bridge Glider assault. Never mind ALARP those guys were just B.......Good, and got it spot on first time out, in an amazing show of precision flying that has little equal in the Gliding assault world.
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It wasn't an evil staff cadet, it was definitely a requirement to do turns in both directions for the A and B. With a 270 degree turn off the top of a winch launch in a not very efficient glider it needed a relatively tight circuit to avoid brown trousers for a young air cadet with a limited but still developing judgement of glide angle.
I am still awaiting my "Good Show " from Wing Commander Spry for this feat of airmanship..
However, I would like to mention "other VGS's were available " , away from the South, such as Sealand and, as above, Burtonwood.
YS
ATC Exeter
Just found my old BGA logbook (price 2 shillings!) and saw I did first solo in T31 on 19 Dec. 54. This was at Exeter and I cannot find the School number anywhere. I am sure it is long gone but it would be nice to know for the ancient memory bank!! Brilliant pics - thank you! Bill
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I discovered my long lost CCF Record of Service book under a pile of papers in a drawer last night.
My first glider flight was on my 16th birthday and as I previously mentioned went solo five days later. After a grand total of 1 hour, 26 minutes of flight time. Mind you, each flight only lasted 3 or four minutes….
My first glider flight was on my 16th birthday and as I previously mentioned went solo five days later. After a grand total of 1 hour, 26 minutes of flight time. Mind you, each flight only lasted 3 or four minutes….