Dowding Vs Leigh-Mallory
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rolling 20
I think as the aircraft that were shot down by German night fighter’s and the claims were very accurate. However I would agree that the majority of allied night bomber losses were largely caused by some very experienced and exceptionally gifted airmen.
A large number of German night fighter pilots were just relieved to get back on the ground, never mind hit anything.
Allied claimed kills as we all are aware, and in particular those of the USAF were quite wide of the mark post war research indicated.
Cheers
Mr Mac
I think as the aircraft that were shot down by German night fighter’s and the claims were very accurate. However I would agree that the majority of allied night bomber losses were largely caused by some very experienced and exceptionally gifted airmen.
A large number of German night fighter pilots were just relieved to get back on the ground, never mind hit anything.
Allied claimed kills as we all are aware, and in particular those of the USAF were quite wide of the mark post war research indicated.
Cheers
Mr Mac
No more so than any other aircraft. All the liquid cooled aircraft were used for low level work at some stage, chap I worked with as an electrician had his brother, Ian McRitchie, shot down by flak in a Mosquito during Operation Jericho. Radial engines were not immune, a single round through the oil tank/cooler could occur as easily as a round in a liquid cooling system. The first time I was shot down was by a single AK-47 round in the engine oil cooler, engine (T53) ran for about two minutes following loss of oil pressure, which was instantaneous with the round hitting.
There was always the occasional 'lucky' shot with any aircraft.
Possibly Dennis 'Fiji' McCaig ( RAF Mustang pilot) might disagree with you about the vulnerability of the P51 cooling system.
rolling 20
I think as the aircraft that were shot down by German night fighter’s and the claims were very accurate. However I would agree that the majority of allied night bomber losses were largely caused by some very experienced and exceptionally gifted airmen.
A large number of German night fighter pilots were just relieved to get back on the ground, never mind hit anything.
Allied claimed kills as we all are aware, and in particular those of the USAF were quite wide of the mark post war research indicated.
Cheers
Mr Mac
I think as the aircraft that were shot down by German night fighter’s and the claims were very accurate. However I would agree that the majority of allied night bomber losses were largely caused by some very experienced and exceptionally gifted airmen.
A large number of German night fighter pilots were just relieved to get back on the ground, never mind hit anything.
Allied claimed kills as we all are aware, and in particular those of the USAF were quite wide of the mark post war research indicated.
Cheers
Mr Mac
Many Luftwaffe night-fighter pilots were shooting 3 or 5 bombers in quick succession once they had 'infiltrated' the stream.
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Interesting thread on RAF inter-war/SWW personalities. Although retiring in 1929, Trenchard was ever present of course and helped to push his doctrine of 'strategic bombing.' There were also the politicians such as Sir Thomas Inskip who altered the country's emphasis on the bomber to that of the fighter during the expansion programmes during 1934-39. A couple of good books on the question of RAF senior officer personalities are: Churchill and His Airmen and Dowding of Fighter Command - Victor of the Battle of Britain. Both are by the academic, Vincent Orange and are well worth a gander.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
Many Luftwaffe night-fighter pilots were shooting 3 or 5 bombers in quick succession once they had 'infiltrated' the stream.
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Herod
But as you know the line was superseded by the Wild Boar method of feeding night fighters into the bomber stream which came more into being post Koln and Battle of the Ruhr.
This method of fighting caused Bomber Command to move away from German skies post Nuremberg until the June Normandy invasion and the resulting contraction of German radar and hence early warning. If the invasion had not occurred, or indeed failed, it would be interesting to see what would have happened in the short term. Ultimately the push from the East and resources from the West would have done for Germany but probably not until later in 1945/6 .
Cheers
Mr Mac
But as you know the line was superseded by the Wild Boar method of feeding night fighters into the bomber stream which came more into being post Koln and Battle of the Ruhr.
This method of fighting caused Bomber Command to move away from German skies post Nuremberg until the June Normandy invasion and the resulting contraction of German radar and hence early warning. If the invasion had not occurred, or indeed failed, it would be interesting to see what would have happened in the short term. Ultimately the push from the East and resources from the West would have done for Germany but probably not until later in 1945/6 .
Cheers
Mr Mac
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
Agreed, Mr Mac. As you say, if the invasion hadn't been so successful, or even failed, the war would have dragged on longer. It would also probably have meant a much wider Soviet presence in Europe.
Herod
But as you know the line was superseded by the Wild Boar method of feeding night fighters into the bomber stream which came more into being post Koln and Battle of the Ruhr.
This method of fighting caused Bomber Command to move away from German skies post Nuremberg until the June Normandy invasion and the resulting contraction of German radar and hence early warning. If the invasion had not occurred, or indeed failed, it would be interesting to see what would have happened in the short term. Ultimately the push from the East and resources from the West would have done for Germany but probably not until later in 1945/6 .
Cheers
Mr Mac
But as you know the line was superseded by the Wild Boar method of feeding night fighters into the bomber stream which came more into being post Koln and Battle of the Ruhr.
This method of fighting caused Bomber Command to move away from German skies post Nuremberg until the June Normandy invasion and the resulting contraction of German radar and hence early warning. If the invasion had not occurred, or indeed failed, it would be interesting to see what would have happened in the short term. Ultimately the push from the East and resources from the West would have done for Germany but probably not until later in 1945/6 .
Cheers
Mr Mac
Indeed in April and May BC attacked Aachen, Brunswick, Munich, Schweinfurt and Duisburg . Then two weeks after DDay, they attacked Wesseling.
It wasn't until Autumn 44 as the Allies pushed across the Low Countries that the Luftwaffe started to lose their early warning advantage.
Regardless of whether DDay had failed, the growing strength of the 8th Airforce with it's P51 escorts would ultimately have brought about the Luftwaffe's destruction.
Possibly Dennis 'Fiji' McCaig ( RAF Mustang pilot) might disagree with you about the vulnerability of the P51 cooling system
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Rolling20
But that is a large reduction from the qty of raids through the winter of 43/44. I know they were re directed partly due to operation Overlord and at first BC said the raids were only short range and arguably low risk so were downgraded so the number of missions increased in the numbers required to complete a tour.
That decision was reversed after another disastrous night for BC over Mailley -Le-Camp on 3/4th May with 42 A/C lost or written off.
Cheers
Mr Mac
But that is a large reduction from the qty of raids through the winter of 43/44. I know they were re directed partly due to operation Overlord and at first BC said the raids were only short range and arguably low risk so were downgraded so the number of missions increased in the numbers required to complete a tour.
That decision was reversed after another disastrous night for BC over Mailley -Le-Camp on 3/4th May with 42 A/C lost or written off.
Cheers
Mr Mac
Rolling20
But that is a large reduction from the qty of raids through the winter of 43/44. I know they were re directed partly due to operation Overlord and at first BC said the raids were only short range and arguably low risk so were downgraded so the number of missions increased in the numbers required to complete a tour.
That decision was reversed after another disastrous night for BC over Mailley -Le-Camp on 3/4th May with 42 A/C lost or written off.
Cheers
Mr Mac
But that is a large reduction from the qty of raids through the winter of 43/44. I know they were re directed partly due to operation Overlord and at first BC said the raids were only short range and arguably low risk so were downgraded so the number of missions increased in the numbers required to complete a tour.
That decision was reversed after another disastrous night for BC over Mailley -Le-Camp on 3/4th May with 42 A/C lost or written off.
Cheers
Mr Mac
The Mailly loss was a combination of factors and showed what the Luftwaffe could do if it got into the stream.
Harris had been told to take up tactical bombing in support of Overlord but since he didn't agree with it, he ignored the instruction. Finally, he had to be ordered to do as he was told.
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This. And it wasn't the woke who wanted him to change, but fellow commanders, and his superiors. The puzzle for me is why he got away with what amounts to insubordination, and I will go off and read the book Churchill and His Airmen mentioned by WideSpectrum, to see if it gives any answers.
as we've already said - he was to visible and too much of a hero to the public to be dropped - same as Monty in mid/late '44
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THANK YOU
I would like to thank everyone for replying. I have learned a lot. I posted this with my great-grandson’s help so my original post was a bit off. He is helping me to write this as I cannot. I was a trainee engineer at the time. I was very interested in the reply that says Bader apologized. If that person can elaborate I would appreciate it! Thank you all again for the very interesting thoughts.
it's through forums like this that some of the unwritten history make sit through to the next generation
3Greensok, re Thank you. There is a book coming out soon which mentions the episode about Bader and the apology. I’ll see if I can get some details.
The controversy over Dowding's treatment came to head with the publication of Chris Wright's book in 1969 - Dowding and the Battle of Britain and the film release.. At the request of the under secretary of war at the time of the battle Bader provided his private thoughts on the book. Extracts from these can be found in the book I mentioned in post #6.
These thoughts are too long to reproduce here but Bader does comment on Dowding saying the pilots held him in high esteem and were disappointed he was not promoted to Marshal of the RAF.
He considered Wright's story as "unattractive" and it contributed nothing to history and damaged the reputations of Dowding and of Park.
I don't think the treatment of Dowding has anything to do with Bader.
Interestingly in 1970 an enquiry was undertaken with the RAF higher ranks as to whether Dowding should now be made a Marshal of the RAF or given some other award. Details of that enquiry are unknown but no such awards were made....
These thoughts are too long to reproduce here but Bader does comment on Dowding saying the pilots held him in high esteem and were disappointed he was not promoted to Marshal of the RAF.
He considered Wright's story as "unattractive" and it contributed nothing to history and damaged the reputations of Dowding and of Park.
I don't think the treatment of Dowding has anything to do with Bader.
Interestingly in 1970 an enquiry was undertaken with the RAF higher ranks as to whether Dowding should now be made a Marshal of the RAF or given some other award. Details of that enquiry are unknown but no such awards were made....
Last edited by Brewster Buffalo; 27th Aug 2023 at 09:14.
Ginger Lacy (known for being quite forthright with his views (and equally very successful in knocking down enemy aircraft) when asked in a post war conversation (prob during the making of the BoB film), about 12 Group leadership in the Battle, answered 'They were clots' , and judging by the evidence of the lack of cooperation plus political knifing he was spot on.
3greensok
The tentative book title below. Publication ‘early next year’.
Per Ardua Ad Astra
Without Wings
The Genesis of Fighter Control and Tactical Air Battle Management
By Tim Willbond
The tentative book title below. Publication ‘early next year’.
Per Ardua Ad Astra
Without Wings
The Genesis of Fighter Control and Tactical Air Battle Management
By Tim Willbond
