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British Airways BAC 1-11 510 - what do we know of them...

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British Airways BAC 1-11 510 - what do we know of them...

Old 8th Jan 2023, 10:39
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British Airways BAC 1-11 510 - what do we know of them...

...apart from being based at Manchester?

For my part, not a great deal. I know the fleet operated an extensive European network from Manchester for many years but were any of them outstationed elsewhere on other duties, e.g. Shuttle services or Heathrow short-haul stuff? Were they ever supplemented by the short-body aircraft at Birmingham or the ex-BCAL machines? I know the 510 had its own type rating so swapping aircraft around may not have been very straightforward.

Thankyou.

Last edited by Mooncrest; 30th Jun 2023 at 19:31.
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Old 8th Jan 2023, 11:03
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First off the majority, I seem to recall all bar one (though I can't find a photo to substantiate that), were in a neutral livery with a dark blue tail with the legend "Super One-Eleven" across it and small BEA titles of the forward fuselage. Again, and excuse me if this was an urban myth, this was because they were used on the German internal routes between various western cities and Berlin for political reasons involved with flying into the divided city. Some of the fleet was rotated through Germany while being based, as you say in Manchester. I remember in my spotting days seeing -510s at LHR, not sure where they arrived from, but I assume they were MAN-LHR services among possible others.

They certainly operated the BEA scheduled network from Manchester but also appeared on some BHX routes, notably DUB-BHX. Again, I may be wrong, but I can't recall any of the -510 fleet being based at BHX. The first BA 1-11s based at BHX were the former Autair/Courtline examples G-AVGP and G-AWBL and former American Airlines -400s, G-BBME/F and G. These were joined by three of the last -500s to be built in G-BGKE/F/ and G.

I'm sure @rog747 can flesh out a great deal more detail.
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Old 8th Jan 2023, 11:17
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The reason for the 'neutral' livery I believe has nothing to do with the status of West Berlin, but because the flights had an Air France code-share (or whatever the equivalent was in those days). I believe that G-AVMS onwards were delivered in the full BEA livery.

The 1-11s eventually operated to LHR but for their first years, MAN-LHR was operated by Tridents or possibly Vanguards.
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Old 8th Jan 2023, 11:32
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Originally Posted by c52
The reason for the 'neutral' livery I believe has nothing to do with the status of West Berlin, but because the flights had an Air France code-share (or whatever the equivalent was in those days). I believe that G-AVMS onwards were delivered in the full BEA livery.

The 1-11s eventually operated to LHR but for their first years, MAN-LHR was operated by Tridents or possibly Vanguards.
Ah, so connected with the Berlin corridor operation but more "commercial politics" than international politics. What was the split in the -510 fleet between German internal and Manchester in terms of numbers of units based in each location? There could have been only three delivered in red square livery then, 'VMS, T and U. I am sure I saw a picture somewhere, from my memory of 'MH in the BEA scheme back in the day, but that could well have been a mocked up PR image.
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Old 8th Jan 2023, 11:58
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I was always puzzled by the 'blank ' blue fin. I had a BA pilot friend who did german domestics on 73s which took over from the 1-11s and theywere in BA colours . they did do other trips as mentioned-I did Dublin- London on a 1-11 500 once only time I flew on one
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Old 8th Jan 2023, 12:25
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The aircraft were delivered with the standard BEA instrument fit to allow commonality with Trident etc. This was different enough to the standard BAC fit that crews could not operate the -400 version of the 1-11.
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Old 8th Jan 2023, 12:31
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Just noticed my error in the thread title. It should be 'BAC 1-11 510'.

Now corrected. Thankyou Mods.

Last edited by Mooncrest; 8th Jan 2023 at 23:14.
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Old 8th Jan 2023, 12:33
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They were all based at MAN when I started there. There were two or three - 539s too if I recall.
When Dan Air 'merged' (sic) with BA we would occasionally see some odd registrations rotating through. YOP being one outstanding example. 😁
Noisy buggers but I learned a lot doing double engine changes on overtime and a few CSDS units which would wind themselves up like a banshee every now and again. Happy days.
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Old 8th Jan 2023, 13:11
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When British Airways was flying between LBA and LHR in the 1970s, a 1-11 would occasionally substitute for the usual Viscount. It was a short runway at LBA back then but I guess OK with a lightly-loaded jet airliner. On at least two occasions after the runway extension, several of the Manchester 1-11s diverted to LBA in the evening when Manchester had unsuitable weather - probably low visibility.
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Old 8th Jan 2023, 13:56
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having found pictures of VMS & VMV in the 'one-eleven' non-livery, I guess they were all delivered like that.
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Old 8th Jan 2023, 14:02
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The neutral blue livery was indeed because of local co-operation with Air France on the Internal German Service / Berlin routes when the Super 1-11s (as they were grandiosely christened) began to arrive. There was no other local sensitivity around use of branded aircraft on the IGS and indeed Pan Am had no such issue with their 727s flying on the same routes.

As others have mentioned, the -510s (One-Eleven 510EDs to be precise) had bespoke flightdeck layouts - to keep the post fairly simple, the switching on the overhead panel worked in the same way as the Tridents so that the flow of switching was towards the nose was "on" and towards the tail was "off". On the other 1-11s including the -400s and the aircraft inherited through the BCal take-over, the overhead panel switching worked in the opposite direction. This presented a fairly major issue in operating the types simultaneously and so neither BA Flight Ops nor the CAA would accept flying both the -510s and other variants. If I recall correctly, the three 1-11-539GLs (G-BGKE/KF/KG) ordered by BA in the early 80s were the same as the -400s which is why you tended to see those aircraft at Birmingham and not Manchester.

The 510s also did not have forward airstairs which was a monumental pain from a ground handling perspective - this was another BEA "customisation". Urban mythology was that they had a block of concrete under the forward galley as a weight/ballast compensator for the absence of airstairs - not sure if anyone can confirm whether this was actually true!

The performance on the -510s was never as good as the other -500s, but of course, many of the ex-BCAL/BUA aircraft had been ordered with Med charter operations in mind and so had higher MTOW (about half a tonne more) and water injection which I don't recall the -510s having. BA did some longer sectors with the ex-BCAL aircraft particularly from Birmingham into Spain - BHX/BCN was daily (the BA5328 sticks in mind), BHX/AGP and BHX/FAO at weekends which the -510s wouldn't hack.

Apart from the aircraft which were retired to Duxford (still there) and Cosford, the 1-11s were sold as a batch to European Aviation and most saw service with European Aviation Air Charter. One of many things you had to watch was the closing mechanism on the holds - I can remember one turnround looking after a EAAC subcharter down in Jersey where the door came off the runners (easily done) and shouting at the top of my voice to get someone across to help before the bloody thing fell out of the aircraft completely if I let go. We then had a CSDS failure on the same turnround (where that distinctive whining noise of the starter motor just kept getting ever higher-pitched until it eventually failed!) and so the aircraft didn't go anywhere anyway...

Last edited by Flightrider; 8th Jan 2023 at 15:36.
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Old 8th Jan 2023, 14:33
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BA European 1974 schedule lists the following in the European and Mediterranean Area timetable, which unhelpfully omits non-London domestic services and the IGS routes are also not tabled:

By Super 1-11 (thus the -510s)
Manchester-Brussels daily except Saturday (which was on a Trident, for some bizarre reason)
Manchester-Copenhagen Wed/Thu/Fri
Manchester-Paris Orly daily mid morning BE802/803.
Glasgow-Manchester-Dusseldorf-Berlin BE824/825 daily
Manchester-Munich daily ex Sat/Sun
Manchester-Dublin 2 x daily (block time 40 minutes each way!!)
Manchester-Milan Mon/Tue/Thu/Sat in conjunction with Alitalia (BE/AZ808)
Manchester-Rome 1 x weekly Sun (again in conjunction with Alitalia)
Manchester-Amsterdam daily
Manchester-Geneva Tue/Sat
Heathrow-Basle daily
Heathrow-Bremen-Berlin daily
Heathrow-Berlin direct daily
Heathrow-Cologne-Berlin 2 x daily
Heathrow-Shannon daily BE972/973
Heathrow-Zagreb daily ex Tue/Sat
Manchester-Heathrow 7 daily flights

By 1-11 (so -400s or non-510s, I guess)
Heathrow-Lyon 2 x flights Mon, 1 x Tue/Wed/Thu under CS/Cambrian flight numbers
Heathrow-Dubrovnik weekly on Sundays (Cambrian)
Heathrow-Aberdeen 3 of 6 daily flights
Heathrow-Edinburgh 1 daily flight southbound only (BE5665 at 0845 - can't work out how the aircraft did the other half of this!!)
Birmingham-Paris Orly 2 x daily (BE872 and BE876) except at weekends. Third daily flight was a Viscount, and one was a GLA-BHX-ORY.
Bristol-Paris Orly daily (Cambrian) which stopped at Cardiff three days per week
Birmingham-Dusseldorf daily ex Sat/Sun
Birmingham-Dublin daily (one of three daily flights, others by Viscount)
Birmingham-Malta overnight Night Tourist class Wed/Sat/Sun (Manchester-Malta was a BEA Airtours 707 under a BE flight number)
Birmingham-Amsterdam daily
Heathrow-Cork daily (Cambrian)
Heathrow-Isle of Man daily (Cambrian)
Heathrow-Jersey two of six daily flights
Heathrow-Liverpool five daily flights (with occasional Viscount infill)
Liverpool-Dublin daily

Some great adverts - for the London-Cork BAC1-11 jet service by British Airways Cambrian and another for Lyon services in the same timetable.

By 1977, adverts had progressed to "Space Travel by British Airways TriStars"...

The differentiation between 1-11s and Super 1-11s in the timetable had stopped by that time. Changes to the above:
London-Prague was 3 x weekly 1-11 (it was a Trident in 1974);
there was a daily 1-11 London-Bordeaux under BZ flight numbers;
Manchester-Nice on Sundays in conjunction with Air France
Paris services had moved to CDG with BHX now 2 x daily
London-Berlin was down to 1 x daily direct 1-11 and 1 flight each way stopping at Bremen
Manchester-Frankfurt daily ex Sat/Sun
Heathrow-Hamburg morning flight was a 1-11, Trident in the evening
Birmingham-Hanover for trade fairs by the looks of the limited dates
Heathrow-Dublin 2 of five daily flights (rest were Tridents)
Heathrow-Shannon had moved to a Trident
Manchester-Milan daily ex Wed/Sat
Heathrow-Turin Mon/Wed/Fri/Sun in conjunction with Alitalia
Heathrow-Luxembourg daily ex Sat afternoon 1-11 (BZ flight numbers, was served by a Northeast Trident in 1974)
Heathrow-Amsterdam 1 of 8 daily flights (with Tridents on 6 of 8 and a TriStar on the morning)
Manchester-Zurich was daily with a nightstop in Zurich whilst Swissair had a DC9 overnighting in Manchester, as it did for years (SR842/843)
Heathrow-Belgrade and Zagreb were combined onto a circular 1-11 routing
Heathrow-Jersey was a mix of 1-11, Viscount and Trident on the afternoon roundtrip
Heathrow-Liverpool was at 3 x daily 1-11
Heathrow-Manchester was 9 x daily 1-11
Heathrow-Newcastle had a 1-11 on the mid-morning 1000 ex London, 1130 ex Newcastle alongside four Trident rotations

The Merchantman freighter services are also listed in 1977 but no sign of the intra-UK domestics outside London again. The timetable lists 25 Super One-Eleven and One-Eleven aircraft with the former at 99 and latter at 81 seats.



IGS services are listed in the 1977 timetable:
Berlin-Bremen 2 x daily (one of which continued to Heathrow)
Berlin-Cologne 6 x daily with a 7th on Fri & Sun
Berlin-Dusseldorf 7 x daily (one of which was the Berlin-Dusseldorf-Manchester-Glasgow)
Berlin-Hanover 10 x daily
Berlin-Stuttgart 2 x daily
Berlin-Sylt 1 x daily
All were 1-11s


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Old 8th Jan 2023, 14:37
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There are three complete survivors:

G-AVMN Panzermuseum East, Slagelse, Region Sjślland, Denmark (in overall dark green but appears complete)
G-AVMO Museum of Flight, East Fortune (ex-Cosford)
G-AVMU Duxford

In addition:
G-AVMJ (most of the fuselage, anyway) is at Tresham College, Kettering.
G-AVMZ (forward fuselage) is under cover at the Shannon Aviation Museum here in Ireland.

I would recommend a perusal of this website in relation to all things BAC 1-11. This is the UK operators page: http://www.bac1-11jet.co.uk/bac1-11j...%20Kingdom.htm

The 1-11-510s were commonly enough seen on LHR-DUB services during the late 1970s and early 1980s (probably in the low season, I think). There was also a single series 539GF aircraft (G-BFWN, ex 5B-DAJ) leased from Cyprus Airways from October 1978 to April 1980 and which was a fixture on the evening BA824/5 service during that period, IIRC. The other thing that sticks in my mind is that on MAN-DUB the 1-11s almost invariably cruised at FL120 on the way to DUB and FL110 on the way back - presumably to stay within the levels controlled by Manchester Control, as it then was.

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Old 8th Jan 2023, 15:00
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And by 1988, omitting the BCal 1-11 schedules listed under BR flight numbers for that year:

Heathrow-Aberdeen 4 x daily 1-11 and rest of schedule on 757 or 737
1 x daily Manchester-Aberdeen on 1-11, two other flights on HS748
Belfast-Birmingham-Amsterdam 1 x daily
Birmingham-Amsterdam-Cologne 1 x daily in addition to the BFS-BHX-AMS
Manchester-Amsterdam 2 x daily
Birmingham-Belfast 3 x daily
Heathrow-Belfast 3 x daily alongside 4 x daily 757, Super Shuttle
Manchester-Belfast 3 x daily
Birmingham-Dublin 1 x daily
Birmingham-Dusseldorf 1 x daily (Lufthansa had a daily HS748 on the route)
Edinburgh-Birmingham-Dusseldorf-Hanover 1 x daily (no local traffic rights on DUS-HAJ)
Birmingham-Edinburgh 2 of 3 daily flights (lunchtime was an HS748)
Birmingham-Faro Sat/Sun
Glasgow-Birmingham-Frankfurt 1 x daily
Birmingham-Glasgow 4 x daily of which 1 ran through to Munich, 1 to Frankfurt and 1 to Dusseldorf (up against Lufthansa's direct Embraer Brasilia GLA-DUS in 2h25!)
Manchester-Birmingham-Hamburg 1 x daily (they flew MAN-BHX 3 x daily including this 1-11 service, 35 minute block time!)
Birmingham-Munich 1 x daily
Birmingham-Paris CDG 2 x daily (with Air France flying a Saab 340 in the afternoon and a 737 at night)
Manchester-Brussels 1 x daily (BA operated the evening, Sabena flew the morning with a 737)
Manchester-Copenhagen 1 x daily (within 25 minutes of the SAS DC9)
Manchester-Dublin 2 x daily
Manchester-Dusseldorf 2 x daily
Manchester-Frankfurt 1 x daily
Manchester-Geneva 4 x weekly
Glasgow-Manchester-Milan 1 x daily (GLA-MAN had five daily flights, this one with a 1-11 and four with HS748)
Jersey-Dusseldorf non-stop on Saturdays in April/May
Jersey-Edinburgh Sundays non-stop
Jersey-Heathrow 4 of 5 daily flights were 1-11, other was a 737
Jersey-Manchester daily service with extras on Sat/Sun by 1-11
Heathrow-Newcastle 4 of 7 daily flights were 1-11, one 737, one 757 (NCL nightstop) and another shown as variable equipment
Manchester-Nice Sundays (Saturday was a 757) with joint BA/AF flight numbers
Manchester-Paris CDG daily (1-11 nightstop in CDG, Air France flew the "other half" of the schedule with a 727 nightstopping in MAN)
Manchester-Rome weekly Saturday

The IGS service was on 737s (with an HS748 on Hannover and Munster) with no 1-11s through Berlin by 1988.

The 1-11s were also Shuttle back-ups between the retirement of the Tridents and 13 January 1992 (when the 737-236s took over) and the 737-400s came into Heathrow in the early 90s. The Shuttle back-ups were removed in the late 90s both due to Heathrow becoming more slot-constrained and the cost! You were never allowed to book firm duty staff travel on the Shuttles in case you triggered a back-up - so every jumpseat was invariably full!

Hopefully a decent picture of BA 1-11 operations with the -510s at the heart of it for many years. The -510s were all retired within the space of just over a year from November 1991 through to the last BA 1-11-510 operation was on 24 December 1992 at Manchester and the remaining 1-11-500s (the ex-BCAL aircraft) soldiered on for a short time longer at Birmingham, leaving the fleet on 1 July 1993 after a month of doing relatively little as the last scheduled service was listed as 31 May 1993. Sale of the BA -510s to European was in May 1993.
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Old 8th Jan 2023, 15:28
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Originally Posted by Liffy 1M
There are three complete survivors:

G-AVMN Panzermuseum East, Slagelse, Region Sjślland, Denmark (in overall dark green but appears complete) https://flic.kr/p/2nqxPFq
G-AVMO Museum of Flight, East Fortune (ex-Cosford)
G-AVMU Duxford

In addition:
G-AVMJ (most of the fuselage, anyway) is at Tresham College, Kettering.
G-AVMZ (forward fuselage) is under cover at the Shannon Aviation Museum here in Ireland. https://flic.kr/p/dhh3hx

I would recommend a perusal of this website in relation to all things BAC 1-11. This is the UK operators page: UNITED KINGDOM

The 1-11-510s were commonly enough seen on LHR-DUB services during the late 1970s and early 1980s (probably in the low season, I think). There was also a single series 539GF aircraft (G-BFWN, ex 5B-DAJ) leased from Cyprus Airways from October 1978 to April 1980 and which was a fixture on the evening BA824/5 service during that period, IIRC. The other thing that sticks in my mind is that on MAN-DUB the 1-11s almost invariably cruised at FL120 on the way to DUB and FL110 on the way back - presumably to stay within the levels controlled by Manchester Control, as it then was.
Also G-AVMT at Cardifff - fire service trainer


G-AVMP at Humberside - another fire service trainer

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Old 8th Jan 2023, 15:29
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Sorry - there's a bit more. I thought I had some more details somewhere on the 1-11-510 fleet and I've just found a sheet of A4 with the entire fleet exit listed (it's dated in March 93 so doesn't have full fleet exit details for the ex-BCAL aircraft which were mostly still flying by then). I doubt this will be on the internet anywhere as it's long before the days of Flightradar24 and the info was from a log kept by the F/O who was the BA 1-11 Fleet Technical chap based at BHX at the time.

One or two of the details here contradict postings above - so I'd take these as as the definitive info. Hours and cycles are total airframe time as at the date of ferry to BOH.

G-AVMH msn 136. Delivered 11Jun69. Last service 23Nov92 HAM-BHX. Ferried 24Nov92 BHX-BOH. 40278 FH, 45190 cycles.
G-AVMI msn 137. Delivered 01Apr69. Last service 14Nov92 GLA-BHX. Ferried 18Nov92 BHX-BOH. 40966 FH, 46151 cycles.
G-AVMJ msn 138. Delivered 21Aug68. Last service 06Jan92 LHR-BFS. Ferried 13Jan92 BFS-BOH. 40483 FH, 45720 cycles.
G-AVMK msn 139. Delivered 13Sep68. Last service 02Dec92 GLA-BHX. Ferried 04Dec92 BHX-BOH. 41033 FH, 45797 cycles.
G-AVML msn 140. Delivered 04Oct68. Last service 12Jan92 DUS-MAN. Ferried 13Jan92 MAN-BOH. 40002 hours, 45102 cycles.
G-AVMM msn 141. Delivered 22Oct68. Last service 13Jan92 CDG-GLA. Ferried 13Jan92 GLA-BOH. 39713 hours, 44446 cycles.
G-AVMN msn 142. Delivered 15Nov68. Last service 09Aug92 FRA-MAN. Ferried 10Aug92 MAN-BOH. 40942 hours, 46177 cycles.
G-AVMO msn 143. Delivered 22Nov68. Last service 18Dec92 CDG-GLA-MAN. Ferried 29Dec92 MAN-BOH. 41336 hours, 45788 cycles.
G-AVMP msn 144. Delivered 04Dec68. Last service 07Oct92 CPH-MAN. Ferried 09Oct92 MAN-BOH. 41747 hours, 47451 cycles.
G-AVMR msn 145. Delivered 02May70. Last service 13Jan92 DUS-MAN. Ferried 13Jan92 MAN-BOH. 37823 hours, 42553 cycles.
G-AVMS msn 146. Delivered 10Jan69. Last service 31Dec92 GLA-BHX. Ferried 05Jan93 BHX-BOH. 40934 hours, 45269 cycles
G-AVMT msn 147. Delivered 23Mar69. Last service 30Sep92 CDG-MAN. Ferried 01Oct92 MAN-BOH. 40267 hours, 44993 cycles.
G-AVMU msn 148. Delivered 19Mar69. Last service 16Dec92 DUS-BHX. Ferried 19Oct92 BHX-BOH. 40279 hours, 45540 cycles.
G-AVMV msn 149. Delivered 10Apr69. Last service 31Jul92 FRA-MAN. Ferried 01Aug92 MAN-BOH. 40512 hours, 45563 cycles.
G-AVMW msn 150. Delivered 13Apr69. Last service 24Dec92 MAN-MAN (Santa special). Ferried 30Dec92 MAN-BOH. 40611 hours, 45254 cycles.
G-AVMX msn 151. Delivered 20Jun69. Last service 13Jan92 LIN-MAN. Ferried 13Jan92 MAN-BOH. 38020 hours, 42549 cycles.
G-AVMY msn 152. Delivered 09Jul69. Last service 13Jan92 BHX-GLA. Ferried 13Jan92 GLA-BOH. 38557 hours, 42922 cycles.
G-AVMZ msn 153. Delivered 12Aug69. Last service 31Oct91 BHX-EDI. Ferried 04Nov91 EDI-BOH. 38376 hours, 43290 cycles.

So looks like the very last 1-11-510 service was 31 December 1992 GLA-BHX by G-AVMS. One suspects this wasn't planned as such as the Santa Special by G-AVMW on 24 December at Manchester is listed in print books as the last service.

The plan was for G-AVMO to be preserved (and contrary to earlier posting, pleased to hear it survived the chop at Cosford) and G-AVMU at Duxford, as occurred.

G-AVML, MM, MR, MX, MY and MZ were all painted into Okada Air colours at Bournemouth but never went to Nigeria (which is where two of the three 1-11-539GLs had gone in July 1991, the other - G-BGKE - going to GEC/Ferranti as then was, later Qinetiq at Boscombe Down). European then acquired the lot.

By the time of the last 1-11-510 service, the only other -500s to have left the fleet were the three -539GLs above and G-AXLL, G-AYOP and G-AZMF. The others (G-AWYR, YS, YT, YU, YV, AXJK, AXJM, AZPZ, BJRT and BJRU) were all still flying in March 1993 when the list I have was finished. I don't have the same details for the -400s, of which five had gone off to Birmingham European / Brymon European by then.
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Old 8th Jan 2023, 16:08
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I know that they were operating into Jersey in the late 70s & 80s; mainly from Heathrow & Manchester, & they may well have been used on the Birmingham services, too.
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Old 8th Jan 2023, 16:09
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Thankyou Flightrider for an astonishingly full and detailed account of the activities of the whole BA 1-11 fleet. They looked like a very busy set of aeroplanes but when their time was up, off they went. Also remarkable to reflect on the European services once available with BA from Manchester, among others. What a contrast to now, where the likes of easyJet and Ryanair dominate where BA was once big.
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Old 8th Jan 2023, 16:16
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What we need here is someone who actually flew the "Super" 1-11 from MAN during the 80s and 90.....

That's me folks

As already noted the -510 was a bespoke machine that BEA persuaded BAC to design and build as a mini Trident. Thus the flightdeck layout differed greatly including all the switches going the wrong way, panel layout redesigned along Trident lines (including old fashioned Smiths A/H etc) a large paper Decca moving map and - get this - a single channel CAT111 autoland AP!!!
By the time I joined the fleet they were obsolete but as my first jet I was thrilled. - the partial flap approach speed was faster than the cruise speed of my previous type
They were an absolute nightmare to operate but flew beautifully and I grew to love them - apart from the water dripping on my head during descent...

If there's any interest I can give some examples of the quirky operational aspects such as trying to start the APU or the multiple switch selections needed for a successful autoland....

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Old 8th Jan 2023, 16:22
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PS Just checked my logbook - last flight was G-AVMW on 4/12/92 early morning MAN/GLA/MAN with Ray Bull and then off to London for the 737 course...
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