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British Airways BAC 1-11 510 - what do we know of them...

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British Airways BAC 1-11 510 - what do we know of them...

Old 8th Jan 2023, 16:42
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Originally Posted by ETOPS
What we need here is someone who actually flew the "Super" 1-11 from MAN during the 80s and 90.....

That's me folks

As already noted the -510 was a bespoke machine that BEA persuaded BAC to design and build as a mini Trident. Thus the flightdeck layout differed greatly including all the switches going the wrong way, panel layout redesigned along Trident lines (including old fashioned Smiths A/H etc) a large paper Decca moving map and - get this - a single channel CAT111 autoland AP!!!
By the time I joined the fleet they were obsolete but as my first jet I was thrilled. - the partial flap approach speed was faster than the cruise speed of my previous type
They were an absolute nightmare to operate but flew beautifully and I grew to love them - apart from the water dripping on my head during descent...

If there's any interest I can give some examples of the quirky operational aspects such as trying to start the APU or the multiple switch selections needed for a successful autoland....
I, for one, would love to hear more.
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Old 8th Jan 2023, 16:58
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IIRC, G-AVMH,'MI and 'MJ were delivered in 'red square' livery, the remainder being delivered in 'super one-eleven' scheme. The first three were then repainted into S 1-11 scheme. Eventually all were to receive the 'speedjack' livery. 'MH became the first to wear the full British Airways livery and I flew on it LHR-MAN, fresh from the paint shop!
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Old 8th Jan 2023, 17:15
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The bland livery was indeed a feature of the Berlin flights. In the beginning there had been ops by BEA (Viscounts), Pan Am (DC-6Bs) and Air France (DC-4s). BEA were the favoured ones by passengers, until Pan Am substituted 727s in 1965/6, and jets were it. BEA tried to compete with enhanced legroom and catering (the "Silver Star" Viscounts), but then ordered the One-Eleven 500s, which were the first of the stretched type. Air France meanwhile had become a lost cause and realised they were going to be zeroed out commercially, so came to this joint commercial arrangement with BEA, although it was mainly for politics to maintain a French presence on the Berlin Corridor, and in fact it was pretty much just a BEA operation, with little French visibility. Air France still ran a couple of nominal Caravelles a day from Paris, into Berlin Tegel (French sector), which until things transferred there fully in the 1970s was hardly used. A further commercial agreement later saw the Berlin routes carved up between the operators; Pan Am dominated on Frankfurt, and BEA on Hanover, always the shortest route with the highest demand.

Liveries of the aircraft did go back and forth, with repaints, initial ones in BEA colours, then later all were in the bland blue. They didn't have the range of the bulk of later One-Eleven 500s, as favoured by the Mediterranean holiday flight operators, just about 1,000 nm (say Manchester to Rome) was it. But that sufficed for BEA. On any one day, half ran from Manchester and half from Berlin, but they exchanged by through-routed flights through West German cities on several rotations per day.

As I understand the subsidiary switches issue, BAC on the One-Eleven and HS on the Trident did them opposite ways round. BEA wanted same as Tridents, for consistency, which BAC did for them but the CAA would not let crew be certified on both sorts - it was one or the other on licences. This really became an issue when BA took over B Cal in 1988, and ended up with equal numbers of both variants, so they were separated by base; if I am not mistaken the BEA spec at Manchester and Heathrow, while the standard/B Cal ones, including various further secondhand ones, at Gatwick and Birmingham. The smaller -400 series were originally with Autair, and came secondhand to Cambrian (I may have got a flight on the very first public operation - separate discussion), and thence into BA that way. They were, likewise, always kept apart from the BEA spec ones.

Last edited by WHBM; 8th Jan 2023 at 17:29.
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Old 8th Jan 2023, 17:22
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In this great photo the large blank area used to house the Decca navigator paper moving map - leaving us with similar Nav capability as found in a Piper Cherokee...

Anyway how to start the 1-11 APU ( this is from memory) Having checked the engineers are not refilling the oil and all cockpit preperation checks are complete it went something like this;-
Battery master switch ON
Fire detection test switch to APU
Squib test switch to TEST - check squib lights on
Switch "APU CONTROL" to "ON".
- Check "FUEL VALVE" reads "OPEN".
- Click "PUSH TO START" (gulls eye initially reads "START"). After 35% RPM "START" goes blank then displays "RUN" when at full RPM.
Select APU generator ON
Select Electrical power source selector to APU and check voltage....et voilà you can make a cup of tea
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Old 8th Jan 2023, 17:29
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Should clarify that "squibs" is the term for an explosive charge that ignites to fire the extinguishers when the engine fire handle is pulled.

Later flying with a LHR based Captain, whose surname was actually Squibbs, I was reduced to hysterics at that part of the checklist. Such a gentleman, he forgave me after the fourth pint I bought.....
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Old 8th Jan 2023, 17:34
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I was just doing a quick search for one of the Manchester 1-11-510 cadre who would have been well-known to a great many as a flying instructor at Shoreham, "Moose" Davies. Sadly passed away about three months ago after a good (and lively) innings at the age of 91. He was on the "Super 1-11" at Manchester until retirement from BA, which was at 55 in those days.

Amusing anecdote in a recently-published book by Peter Herzberg, who was a Dan-Air 146 skipper at Newcastle at the time of the event recounted in his book "That's Fast Enough" (which is available on Amazon and worth a read). Asked for their aircraft type by ATC, a BA crew declared they were a One-Eleven - only to quickly state that they were, in fact, a "Super One-Eleven". Pete's F/O then called in as a "Super 146" and an Air UK F27 coming onto frequency declared itself a "Super F27" until the controller called time on the joke...

I stopped in about 1995 keeping a log of flights I'd taken, which is just as well as Greta Thunberg would by now be seizing it as evidence for the prosecution, had I continued. Several 1-11-510 flights with BA and latterly one or two with EAAC on there (found in the garage this afternoon I was digging out the stuff for the posts above), and more on standard 1-11s with British Midland/Airways Cymru (the infamous G-WLAD) and Dan-Air on various -500s. The terrors of G-WLAD probably merit a thread all of their own....

I thought condensation was unique to British-built aircraft, with 1-11, 146 and RJ generally requiring paper tissues stuffed into the underside of the overhead lockers at Row 6 to stop the unfortunate occupants getting soaked on take-off and Shorts 360 pilots suffering from "trench arse" after hours of sitting on rain-soaked seats. That was until boarding a Lithuanian/Maltese cross-breed of A320 flying for easyJet last summer and - lo and behold - observing paper tissues stuffed into the underside of the overhead lockers, which I hadn't seen on an aircraft for quite a few years! Plus ca change....

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Old 8th Jan 2023, 18:33
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We had a lengthy discussion about G-WLAD about eight years ago. I began it, wondering what possessed Sir Bishop to lease it in the first place. In spite of its noisiness and somewhat dated appearance, it was actually a very reliable ship and kept LBA with its much-vaunted Heathrow jet service when the DC9 naffed off after just one season!

I'm glad to note the BA 1-11s have generated plenty of comment, whether in praise or derogatory. Typical of BA to have an aircraft engineered to their exact requirements; what was effectively a two-engined Trident should been the Super Two-dent!
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Old 8th Jan 2023, 20:19
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And of course, let’s not forget “Mike Romeo” on this thread. https://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5946

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Old 8th Jan 2023, 21:12
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It was the ADI display style that the BEA -510,s had in common to the Tridents, this was the critical factor in preventing cross fleet crewing. Standardising the fleet as all sky pointer or all ground pointer was investigated but deemed too costly.



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Old 8th Jan 2023, 21:40
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When pretty much the whole fleet was sold to European, effectively at residual price as there appeared no real market for them, the new owners were surprisingly able to find a lot of subcharter work for them, various European mainstream carriers like Air France or Sabena (the latter having them put into their livery), also a range of start-ups of the era, and British Aerospace themselves who had got into delays with new 146/RJ deliveries had them sent them out as cover. Quite a few were back through Heathrow from time to time, for some years.

When the final one departed Manchester for Bournemouth (AVMW, looking at the above), the crew called up Ready for Departure, adding "as the last BA One-Eleven to leave Manchester". A senior voice replied "Thank you. Before you go, could you please pat the aircraft on the nose and wish her good luck, whatever the future brings. I have been speaking to her ever since she first arrived 25 years ago when I was a new junior here". The crew responded "Tower, we have done as requested, the aircraft asks that in turn we pass on thanks for all the assistance you and your colleagues have given her over that time". And on they went ...
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Old 8th Jan 2023, 22:35
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Originally Posted by ETOPS


In this great photo the large blank area used to house the Decca navigator paper moving map - leaving us with similar Nav capability as found in a Piper Cherokee...

Anyway how to start the 1-11 APU ( this is from memory) Having checked the engineers are not refilling the oil and all cockpit preperation checks are complete it went something like this;-
Battery master switch ON
Fire detection test switch to APU
Squib test switch to TEST - check squib lights on
Switch "APU CONTROL" to "ON".
- Check "FUEL VALVE" reads "OPEN".
- Click "PUSH TO START" (gulls eye initially reads "START"). After 35% RPM "START" goes blank then displays "RUN" when at full RPM.
Select APU generator ON
Select Electrical power source selector to APU and check voltage....et voilà you can make a cup of tea
What about auto land set up ?
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Old 9th Jan 2023, 06:51
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Originally Posted by sandringham1
It was the ADI display style that the BEA -510,s had in common to the Tridents, this was the critical factor in preventing cross fleet crewing.
I'd have thought that having switches that operated in the opposite sense to those on the pocket rockets was a showstopper, too.
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Old 9th Jan 2023, 07:57
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What about auto land set up ?
I still have nightmares but here goes..........

Being a single channel/fail passive system there were numerous monitors built into the autopilot the last one being me! The correct ILS frequency being selected and the inbound course dialled into both direction indicators meant you could press the autoland test button - a successful outcome was a black and white "dolls eye" briefly showing on an indicator. Once established on the ILS both pilots would select a switch on their DI to lock onto the signal - seem to remember this was termed "beaming up" ?
A last check of the weather/RVR and minima set on the Rad alt (50 ft decision height) meant my job was to gingerly operate the "Prime Land" switch. When engaged it allowed the autopilot to perform its tricks and the approach to descend below CAT1 minima. It was held in the engaged position magnetically thus would disconnect if any fault occurred - that being a fairly regular occurence! If it did drop out a loud warning sounded and a bright red warning light illuminated - that always made me jump and I had to call "go-around" above 50 radio or "LAND MANUAL!!" below 50 ft - and yes I was speaking in capitals
If the system worked the result was usually a pretty decent landing - the results of a manual touchdown from 50 ft in poor viz were .................variable.
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Old 9th Jan 2023, 08:51
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Originally Posted by ETOPS
I still have nightmares but here goes..........

Being a single channel/fail passive system there were numerous monitors built into the autopilot the last one being me! The correct ILS frequency being selected and the inbound course dialled into both direction indicators meant you could press the autoland test button - a successful outcome was a black and white "dolls eye" briefly showing on an indicator. Once established on the ILS both pilots would select a switch on their DI to lock onto the signal - seem to remember this was termed "beaming up" ?
A last check of the weather/RVR and minima set on the Rad alt (50 ft decision height) meant my job was to gingerly operate the "Prime Land" switch. When engaged it allowed the autopilot to perform its tricks and the approach to descend below CAT1 minima. It was held in the engaged position magnetically thus would disconnect if any fault occurred - that being a fairly regular occurence! If it did drop out a loud warning sounded and a bright red warning light illuminated - that always made me jump and I had to call "go-around" above 50 radio or "LAND MANUAL!!" below 50 ft - and yes I was speaking in capitals
If the system worked the result was usually a pretty decent landing - the results of a manual touchdown from 50 ft in poor viz were .................variable.
Brilliant. Brit engineering at its finest. ! That said I flew the Classic for a while. Autolands were something of a variable feast.
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Old 9th Jan 2023, 09:10
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
I'd have thought that having switches that operated in the opposite sense to those on the pocket rockets was a showstopper, too.
I don't recall the switches issue but the concern was that the different style of attitude indicator displays could lead to the aircraft being rolled inverted, especially in a situation when things were happening quickly and the crew reacting under pressure.
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Old 9th Jan 2023, 10:01
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Sad sight in Nigeria, plenty BAC1-11 once operated by Okada air. In 1997 I made a flight with one of these from Lagos to Port Harcourt.
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Old 9th Jan 2023, 10:14
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
I'd have thought that having switches that operated in the opposite sense to those on the pocket rockets was a showstopper, too.
Didn't the Atlas config B737s have a similar set up with switches operating in the opposite sense?
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Old 9th Jan 2023, 11:05
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Originally Posted by WHBM
When pretty much the whole fleet was sold to European, effectively at residual price as there appeared no real market for them, the new owners were surprisingly able to find a lot of subcharter work for them, various European mainstream carriers like Air France or Sabena (the latter having them put into their livery), also a range of start-ups of the era, and British Aerospace themselves who had got into delays with new 146/RJ deliveries had them sent them out as cover. Quite a few were back through Heathrow from time to time, for some years.

When the final one departed Manchester for Bournemouth (AVMW, looking at the above), the crew called up Ready for Departure, adding "as the last BA One-Eleven to leave Manchester". A senior voice replied "Thank you. Before you go, could you please pat the aircraft on the nose and wish her good luck, whatever the future brings. I have been speaking to her ever since she first arrived 25 years ago when I was a new junior here". The crew responded "Tower, we have done as requested, the aircraft asks that in turn we pass on thanks for all the assistance you and your colleagues have given her over that time". And on they went ...
Worked most of the stream of 1-111s that were inbound to BOH, believe one used the (unauthorised?) call sign “Charrington 1”, chief pilot 1-111s?
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Old 9th Jan 2023, 14:03
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As a slight aside, most of the photo's of 1-11 cockpits in museums show the "Stall Dump" handle pulled, (red oval thing to the right of the throttles). To re set it you need to poke a small screwdriver into a hole in the RH side of the centre console to release a latch allowing the handle to be turned and pushed back in. I did it in the cockpit at the Bournemouth Aviation Museum a couple of years ago. I wonder if it has been pulled again.
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Old 9th Jan 2023, 15:07
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The Autoland system was a pretty smart system for its day. I seem to remember it had a “comparator “ that compared the single channels signal for increases or decreases in the rate of change . If it went out of limits, it dropped out as ETOPS describes….normally at around 60’ Radio.
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