British Airways TriStar 500.
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The auto land incident has been recreated and reinvented with a mix of truth and myth. The aircraft was not ZE706 it was 705. 706 sat in Marshall’s for a long time as it was initially a model bought for spares support. The Autoland system was working as it should that day but the crew made errors. Some were errors of ignorance or misunderstanding, some were handling.
The autoland was indeed attempted from a circuit and did not meet the gates that allowed the system to operate as anything but an auto approach.
There were also two models of autopilot in the fleet and they behaved subtly differently in the autoland mode. The training was done by BA,and the majority of the fleet were BA model with the analogue FCU interface to the autopilot. 705 had a different model of autopilot - a digital one.
The main, subtle, difference being that the A/L, Flare and Rollout modes were not shown on the Mode Annuciator Panel until all the requirements for them had been met, unlike the ex BA models where the modes were shown on the on the MAP as armed and active modes. The attempted autoland, carried out from a circuit failed to give the system sufficient time and meet its required gates to let the A/L Flare and Rollout modes to first arm let alone become active modes.
The aircraft did exactly what it was designed to do and flew down the glide slope to the point where it intercepted the runway. The lack of flare - which the autopilots did not do as they were not asked to - resulted in a bounce. The handling pilot disconnected the autopilot and pushed the stick forward slightly. Unfortunately this technique which may have been apt on other aircraft made the second bounce worse as it deployed the DLC to a greater extent further degrading the available lift. The aircraft then went round and flew a circuit during which much fuel then leaked out in the subsequent circuit
It annoyed 216sqn pilots for years after as the incident was a result of people showing off to senior officers. The RAF senior management become entrenched in their fear and distrust of autoland, which could have been a useful tool. In reality the cost of the required maintenance and training for Cat III was probably not worth it as the ILS at Brize was not Cat III capable.
The autoland was indeed attempted from a circuit and did not meet the gates that allowed the system to operate as anything but an auto approach.
There were also two models of autopilot in the fleet and they behaved subtly differently in the autoland mode. The training was done by BA,and the majority of the fleet were BA model with the analogue FCU interface to the autopilot. 705 had a different model of autopilot - a digital one.
The main, subtle, difference being that the A/L, Flare and Rollout modes were not shown on the Mode Annuciator Panel until all the requirements for them had been met, unlike the ex BA models where the modes were shown on the on the MAP as armed and active modes. The attempted autoland, carried out from a circuit failed to give the system sufficient time and meet its required gates to let the A/L Flare and Rollout modes to first arm let alone become active modes.
The aircraft did exactly what it was designed to do and flew down the glide slope to the point where it intercepted the runway. The lack of flare - which the autopilots did not do as they were not asked to - resulted in a bounce. The handling pilot disconnected the autopilot and pushed the stick forward slightly. Unfortunately this technique which may have been apt on other aircraft made the second bounce worse as it deployed the DLC to a greater extent further degrading the available lift. The aircraft then went round and flew a circuit during which much fuel then leaked out in the subsequent circuit
It annoyed 216sqn pilots for years after as the incident was a result of people showing off to senior officers. The RAF senior management become entrenched in their fear and distrust of autoland, which could have been a useful tool. In reality the cost of the required maintenance and training for Cat III was probably not worth it as the ILS at Brize was not Cat III capable.
Last edited by Juan Tugoh; 31st May 2023 at 16:00.
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Your account sounds pretty feasible regarding the approach, I worked on these aircraft for 9 years on 216, so am familiar with the autoland systems. But I'm pretty sure it was 706 that bounced. When it eventually returned to the Sqn, many years later, it had huge patches on both wings above the undercarriage.
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Your account sounds pretty feasible regarding the approach, I worked on these aircraft for 9 years on 216, so am familiar with the autoland systems. But I'm pretty sure it was 706 that bounced. When it eventually returned to the Sqn, many years later, it had huge patches on both wings above the undercarriage.
The Tristar damaged by a heavy landing had to be repaired on site at Brize as it was un-flyable in its damaged state, in fact it was close to being written off. The work was carried out by the BA crash crew using a repair scheme devised up by Lockheed.
I remember the "extension" to Base Hangar that was built to accommodate 705 while she was fixed.
706 was still parked-up at Marshalls (IIRC, still in Pan Am colours) at the time.
706 was still parked-up at Marshalls (IIRC, still in Pan Am colours) at the time.
Lockheed flew one of the ex-PSA Tristars to the Gulf to demo the aircraft to Gulf Air (1975? '76?)....... it was decided to show off the Autoland on Doha's then nice new - and very long - runway. The aircraft was fitted with a CCTV system showing the view looking forward through the flight deck windshield, with screens in the first class section for guests to see the action. The bottom of the picture showed the coaming and a bit of the panel.
As we started down the slope, two pairs of hands were ostentatiously placed on the coaming where we could see them. Down we went, runway in view, solid as a rock, perfect approach, speed on the button, etc etc.
Until, as most of the Gulf Air people on board knew would probably happen, at about 700 feet QFE (or something like that) we hit the substantial kink in the ILS caused by a huge recently built hangar. The aircraft oscillated wildly, and the two pairs of hands disappeared faster than a lightning strike.
They regained control, and we landed safely. And Gulf Air bought the aircraft anyway.
As we started down the slope, two pairs of hands were ostentatiously placed on the coaming where we could see them. Down we went, runway in view, solid as a rock, perfect approach, speed on the button, etc etc.
Until, as most of the Gulf Air people on board knew would probably happen, at about 700 feet QFE (or something like that) we hit the substantial kink in the ILS caused by a huge recently built hangar. The aircraft oscillated wildly, and the two pairs of hands disappeared faster than a lightning strike.
They regained control, and we landed safely. And Gulf Air bought the aircraft anyway.
Last edited by old,not bold; 2nd Jun 2023 at 09:13.
On 28th August 1997 I was a passenger on Caledonian Tristar G-BBAH, LGW-DLM. I am not exactly sure where I was sat but it was in an outer 3 row on the starboard side in the area of the wing...so mid cabin...ish
About half way through the flight (which was naturally at silly o'clock in the morning), a hostie approached and asked if we would mind vacating the seats for a while. No problem of course, at which point the FE arrived with a tool box, got on his knees and rummaged around in an under floor panel for 10 minutes or so before retreating back up front satisfied and thanking us for our trouble.
I've often wondered what he did!? Anyone in the know as to what might have needed an in-flight tweak in an ageing L1011 mid-cabin under the floor?
The below attached for no other reason than nostalgia:
About half way through the flight (which was naturally at silly o'clock in the morning), a hostie approached and asked if we would mind vacating the seats for a while. No problem of course, at which point the FE arrived with a tool box, got on his knees and rummaged around in an under floor panel for 10 minutes or so before retreating back up front satisfied and thanking us for our trouble.
I've often wondered what he did!? Anyone in the know as to what might have needed an in-flight tweak in an ageing L1011 mid-cabin under the floor?
The below attached for no other reason than nostalgia:
Last edited by TCU; 1st Jun 2023 at 19:41.
On 28th August 1997 I was a passenger on Caledonian Tristar G-BBAH, LGW-DLM. I am not exactly sure where I was sat but it was in an outer 3 row on the starboard side in the area of the wing...so mid cabin...ish
About half way through the flight (which was naturally at silly o'clock in the morning), a hostie approached and asked if we would mind vacating the seats for a while. No problem of course, at which point the FE arrived with a tool box, got on his knees and rummaged around in an under floor panel for 10 minutes or so before retreating back up front satisfied and thanking us for our trouble.
I've often wondered what he did!? Anyone in the know as to what might have needed an in-flight tweak in an ageing L1011 mid-cabin under the floor?
About half way through the flight (which was naturally at silly o'clock in the morning), a hostie approached and asked if we would mind vacating the seats for a while. No problem of course, at which point the FE arrived with a tool box, got on his knees and rummaged around in an under floor panel for 10 minutes or so before retreating back up front satisfied and thanking us for our trouble.
I've often wondered what he did!? Anyone in the know as to what might have needed an in-flight tweak in an ageing L1011 mid-cabin under the floor?
Dave, I don't recall any hatch allowing access from the cabin to the HSC. The HSC was unpressurised being the space between the wheel wells and the ceiling was fairly well covered with components. There were 2 external hatches, one at each end of the HSC. Was the F/E tinkering with the pax services/entertainment system cabling??
TCU , sorry I can't help ; my last Tristar flt was July 16th '97 Mombasa- Chania [ Souda Bay ]- LGW. Funnily enough on G-BBAH .
28th August '97 was day before final check flt back on mainline B757 , G-BIKT [ KT of B Airtours call sign] .
Cale' was magic , like Highland Division with sunshine and kilts ! FEs being part of that magic [ thankfully no kilts 'tho ] , fix anything ; lots learned to fly and ended careers as excellent skippers .
Links below have just refound of G-BBAI being recovered from the Leeds overrun , I've put them on B. Airtours subject as well ..may be of interest ..
G-BBAI at LBA
Issue 1
rgds condor
28th August '97 was day before final check flt back on mainline B757 , G-BIKT [ KT of B Airtours call sign] .
Cale' was magic , like Highland Division with sunshine and kilts ! FEs being part of that magic [ thankfully no kilts 'tho ] , fix anything ; lots learned to fly and ended careers as excellent skippers .
Links below have just refound of G-BBAI being recovered from the Leeds overrun , I've put them on B. Airtours subject as well ..may be of interest ..
G-BBAI at LBA
Issue 1
rgds condor
Condor, I'm honoured by your response...similarly with Dave and CV880.
There is just something about the Tristar that captures the imagination. My father retired to Dartmouth and at one of his gin infused garden parties in the early 2000's I met a retired BA L1011 Commander....his tales of L1011 flying at BA had my attention for several hours although the gin diffused the future retention of his tales
What he did however leave me with was his footnote on his L1011 flying...PFM....Pure F@%*ing Magic. I was just happy to sit on one for a few hours so I can never imagine what it must have felt to be in command of this wonder of Lockheed
There is just something about the Tristar that captures the imagination. My father retired to Dartmouth and at one of his gin infused garden parties in the early 2000's I met a retired BA L1011 Commander....his tales of L1011 flying at BA had my attention for several hours although the gin diffused the future retention of his tales
What he did however leave me with was his footnote on his L1011 flying...PFM....Pure F@%*ing Magic. I was just happy to sit on one for a few hours so I can never imagine what it must have felt to be in command of this wonder of Lockheed
I can believe the TriStar was a great aircraft to fly (and I'm sure DLC was part of the reason) - it was equally a great aircraft to work on, albeit only for a brief spell in my youth.
I remember a fun afternoon in the hangar showing my neighbour's kids around the aircraft, and needless to say the trip down to the galley in the lifts was one of the highlights.
Engine changes were fun, and so was fitting and removing the third pod with its wonderful rope-and-wooden-block arrangement to stop the fan windmilling in flight.
I remember a fun afternoon in the hangar showing my neighbour's kids around the aircraft, and needless to say the trip down to the galley in the lifts was one of the highlights.
Engine changes were fun, and so was fitting and removing the third pod with its wonderful rope-and-wooden-block arrangement to stop the fan windmilling in flight.
Many hours on the sim while tech instructing and a flight deck invitation out and back to Lanzarote (the very best observer flight deck seat bar none). A flight deck of extremes ! ... one young female cadet having to loosen her seat straps so that she could reach the fire handles and a Texan (naturally) F/E who was the only one I came across who didn't need to slide his seat backwards and forwards !
Reminiscing with a very senior fleet pilot he mentioned a double LHR _ CDG - LHR duty day when the only times they saw the ground was taxying at either end ! ...the 74 was good ... but the Tri was nicer !
(ducks for cover !)
Reminiscing with a very senior fleet pilot he mentioned a double LHR _ CDG - LHR duty day when the only times they saw the ground was taxying at either end ! ...the 74 was good ... but the Tri was nicer !
(ducks for cover !)
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British Airway TriStar 500
Flew the 500 in RAF colours from 1990 to 2002. trying to convince the powers that be to let us use all the toys was like banging your head against the wall.
Lovely aircraft much misunderstood but a brilliant job.
Lovely aircraft much misunderstood but a brilliant job.
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The bouncing Tristar
From what I remember from Flying Supervisors' Course at Cranwell in 1993, the runway at Brize was not certified for Autoland ILS approaches when this incident took place, as confirmed by BEagle. Also, there was a lack of clarity between 38 Gp and MOD whether autoland could be used - one said it could and the other disagreed. Only one person was aware of this contradiction, OC 216 and he failed to clarify this to the crews. However, although he came in for severe criticism in the subsequent enquiry, it didn’t do his career any harm, as he later returned as the Stn Cdr and then went even higher.
From what I remember from Flying Supervisors' Course at Cranwell in 1993, the runway at Brize was not certified for Autoland ILS approaches when this incident took place, as confirmed by BEagle. Also, there was a lack of clarity between 38 Gp and MOD whether autoland could be used - one said it could and the other disagreed. Only one person was aware of this contradiction, OC 216 and he failed to clarify this to the crews. However, although he came in for severe criticism in the subsequent enquiry, it didn’t do his career any harm, as he later returned as the Stn Cdr and then went even higher.
Thread Starter
Did BA and BKT employ Flight Engineers for their TriStars or was it a third pilot position? I only ask because it's quite well known that BEA and then BA didn't want FEs in the Trident cockpits so they wouldn't have to cross swords with the engineering unions. Therefore, a third pilot got the systems panel gig.
Mooncrest. The decision to operate 3 man crews consisting of 3 pilots was taken by BEA in 1958 and applied to Vanguar ds, Comets and Tridents. It had nothing to do with Flight Engineer politics as BEA never employed any.
This caused a log jam in the seniority system for pilots causing long delays in promotion to captain which could have, but did not ,cause a problem with BALPA
This caused a log jam in the seniority system for pilots causing long delays in promotion to captain which could have, but did not ,cause a problem with BALPA
SO I managed to get on the BA Tristar ('BBAI) next morning where I was invited to occupy the jump seat with its HUGE picture window.
5 years later on 'BBAI once again I was sent O/I Heathrow - Larnaca, once again enjoying that superb view however on return, as we shut down on stand, the flight deck door opened and the purser came in carrying 4 glasses into which he'd put a single (airline) bottle of whisky and topped it up with champagne(?) (at least that's what it was called).
Last edited by chevvron; 1st Jul 2023 at 14:49.