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Comet 4 and Caravelle - common pilot type rating ?

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Comet 4 and Caravelle - common pilot type rating ?

Old 3rd Oct 2020, 12:41
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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TL: Avons in the later Comets (Ghosts early on); Avons in the early Caravelles. The later ones had the P & W JT8D.
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Old 3rd Oct 2020, 13:22
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I had to dig up these photos but here is a comparison of the insides:



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Old 3rd Oct 2020, 15:32
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RetiredBA/BY View Post
What would be the point. Did any airline fly both Comets and Caravelles?
A good number. But in those times, being qualified on two types was not uncommon.
Originally Posted by DHfan View Post
I'm absolutely certain that I've read somewhere that the Comet nose design was licenced by Sud-Aviation from de Havilland for the Caravelle so I would expect it to be identical. I've always assumed it was external, and presumably structure, rather than anything more.
More than that, the nose/front end was actually designed by De Havilland at Hatfield, and for the first few Caravelles was actually built there and shipped over.

With the De Havilland nose/flight deck, Rolls-Royce engines, and a string of systems subassemblies from the UK, who in the 1950s were second only to the USA for aerospace sourcing, the Caravelle had a lot of UK value in it.
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Old 3rd Oct 2020, 16:35
  #24 (permalink)  
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I used to fly the B707 and B737 albeit on different days in the late 70's as an F/O and later as Captain both B757/B767 as did lots of my colleagues.

Shortest flight on B707 was Kuwait to Abadan or Bahrain to Dharhan
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Old 3rd Oct 2020, 19:46
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Originally Posted by Mooncrest View Post
Not that I'm aware of. As I said in my opening post, it's purely academic anyway and I only asked on the basis of similar cockpits. Today, it might be a different story.
Yes, Aerolíneas Argentinas.
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Old 4th Oct 2020, 09:40
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The scurrilous rumour is of course that De Havilland cut the noses off the pioneer Comet 1s awaiting breaking up after their withdrawal, and sent them over to Sud !
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Old 4th Oct 2020, 10:02
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A milestone in aviation history: 62 years ago today BOAC began the world's first transatlantic jet services using Comet 4s.
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Old 4th Oct 2020, 10:37
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The Comet 4 at Duxford is one of the two that took part in the simultaneous W-E and E-W flights. Not that it's important, but I can never remember which one.
For some years it remained in Dan-Air colours, as they'd presented it to Duxford, but as a historic aircraft in its' own right, I think it's justified that it's now preserved in BOAC colours.
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Old 5th Oct 2020, 03:57
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Seating arrangement.

I remember boarding an Air Inter Caravelle at Marseille and found my seat facing the rear and the seats in front of me facing forward! Maybe for the escape hatch?
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Old 5th Oct 2020, 07:54
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Originally Posted by DHfan View Post
The Comet 4 at Duxford is one of the two that took part in the simultaneous W-E and E-W flights. Not that it's important, but I can never remember which one.
For some years it remained in Dan-Air colours, as they'd presented it to Duxford, but as a historic aircraft in its' own right, I think it's justified that it's now preserved in BOAC colours.
It was the west to east one
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Old 5th Oct 2020, 20:24
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Biggest challenge to a common type rating was surely that the Comet was 3 crew flight deck, while Caravelle was pilot and co-pilot only. Also, Comet worked up to RR Avons (from DH Ghost). Caravelle started with RR Avon and moved on to P&W...
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Old 5th Oct 2020, 21:54
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Caravelle was 3-crew. Flight engineer sat behind the co-pilot, panel on sidewall, same as Comet. Systems were not automated enough then to dispense with them.
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Old 6th Oct 2020, 11:27
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Out of curiosity, has there ever been a common pilot type rating that covered both a two and four engined jet aircraft?
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Old 6th Oct 2020, 12:40
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A330/A340 was not a common type rating IIRC but one could be acquired based on the other by going through a differences course only.
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Old 6th Oct 2020, 13:11
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Sterling of Denmark used Caravelles on Transatlantic charters (yes, Copenhagen to San Francisco etc, with multiple stops) from the late 1960s. Given the navigation technology of the time, they must surely have needed a navigator, making a 4-crew setup.

UTA used them in the South Pacific on similar lengthy overwater runs, such as Tahiti to Noumea, presumably the same applied.
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Old 6th Oct 2020, 15:06
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My knowledge of airliners is extremely limited, and even that's probably generous, but I'm surprised that overwater flights of those sorts of distances were allowed with only two engines in those days.
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Old 6th Oct 2020, 17:38
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It was only the FAA, and thus US-reg aircraft, that had statutory limitations (60 minutes single engine speed) on 2-engine overwater flights prior to ETOPS etc. Sterling were the first, and for a long time only, user of Caravelles across the Atlantic, refuelling at Keflavik and Gander (and, if going to San Francisco, refuelling in of all places Omaha in Nebraska); they also ran them extensively from Copenhagen to Thailand, but that doesn't have so much overwater apart from across the Bay of Bengal. I think they also did holiday flights to Natal in Brasil, refuelling in The Canaries.

Some detail :

https://www.airliners.net/forum/view...42559#p5942923
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Old 6th Oct 2020, 17:51
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Originally Posted by DHfan View Post
My knowledge of airliners is extremely limited, and even that's probably generous, but I'm surprised that overwater flights of those sorts of distances were allowed with only two engines in those days.
The piston twins were the ones that needed to be kept close to land in case of engine problems. Even though they had only two engines, the early jet engines were still a big step up in reliability, so a Caravelle could easily fly longer overwater sectors. Out of 64 hull-loss accidents, 27 incurred fatalities and of those, only three accidents were due to an engine problem, either ascertained or suspected.
See: https://aviation-safety.net/database...ravelle/losses
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Old 7th Oct 2020, 08:56
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Yes Sterling AW flew their 109 seat Super Caravelles, and the newer larger 131-140 seat 12's all over the place basically Worldwide.
Colombo Goa India Maldives HKG and Bangkok
USA & Canada
Aswan Abu Simbel Mombasa
Brazil

Sadly their 2 fatal Super Caravelle accidents both occurred on the way home from excotic holidays - One, CFIT, was lost on let down in poor Wx to Dubai, and the other during take off at Teheran when a failure of the right main landing gear occurred.
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Old 7th Oct 2020, 17:45
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We did a considerable Caravelle thread a few years ago here, for those interested

UK Caravelle?
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