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The last BOAC Boeing 707 in existence?

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The last BOAC Boeing 707 in existence?

Old 7th May 2020, 16:54
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Spooky 2 View Post
I'm intrigued by the four instruments on the leading edge of the upper FE panel? Suspect they are either N1 or N2 gauges, maybe EPR that would be in the vsision scan of the FE when facing forward? Were these a BOAC mod, or was the airplane delivered this way as I have never seen that config before.
Speeky 2: I think they were fuel temperature gauges - if I remember correctly one had to "toggle " the fuel temperatures manually especially when changing fuel tanks because of the differing fuel temps in the tanks.
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Old 7th May 2020, 17:03
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Originally Posted by treadigraph View Post
Air India, El Al, Lufthansa and Varig each had a few Conway powered 707s. Can't think of any others.
There were six variants of the -420 delivered:

-430 Lufthansa
-436 BOAC
-437 Air India
-441 VARIG
-458 El Al
-465 Cunard Eagle
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Old 7th May 2020, 18:03
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Originally Posted by Wyvernfan View Post
Thanks for the extra info Alan Baker and Dave Reid. I’ve only ever been aware before of the Conway engined version for BOAC / BA.
Boeing stopped offering the Rolls-Royce 707 after 1963, so BOAC, like the others, had to go for the P&W powered version for subsequent orders. Boeing only built 37 of them. Douglas carried on with the Rolls version of the DC-8 for a couple of years longer but then gave up as well. Possibly this was because nobody was ordering any more. The turbofan Rolls had been a popular early type when P&W only offered turbojets, but when they put a fan on the JT3D that reversed the advantage and they took the market. It might have surprised Boeing that BOAC, the principal Rolls purchaser, continued to buy odd 707s, in ones and twos, because all the emphasis was they were only going to buy VC-10s now.

The RR-powered 707 was the same basic airframe as the 707-320, the contemporary P&W JT4A turbojet intercontinental version of the original 707. When Boeing and P&W introduced the turbofan 707-320B they also made a number of airframe changes. Although surely justified, this was also said to have been done to prevent existing 707-320 uses upgrading by just changing the engine - putting the notably more efficient turbofan onto the shorter range 707-120 and 720 had been done without such changes, and a lot of the early production of these types was put through the engine conversion and got a big improvement, to the dismay of Boeing sales teams who wanted to sell whole new aircraft, at a time when the initial big jet changeover orders were now falling away.

Last edited by WHBM; 7th May 2020 at 18:22.
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Old 7th May 2020, 19:35
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Originally Posted by Alan Baker View Post
Boeing allocated customer numbers to airlines buying its aircraft which applied to the aircraft throughout its life and which also applied to any other Boeing types the airline bought. Thus a 707-436 was built for BOAC and 36 was added to any other Boeing type bought by BOAC or its successor British Airways, hence 747-136, 737-236, 757-236 etc. 99 was the customer number for Caledonian Airways for the two 707-320Cs that they bought, hence 707-399C.
A slight digression, but Boeing finally junked their customer number system three or four years ago. Having never applied it to the 787, and abandoned it on the 747 with the advent of the 747-8, the remaining types in production (737NG, 777, etc) also stopped using the system at a given point on each production line.

So, for example, Delta's N865DN (31976/6058) is a 737-932ER (32 being Delta's customer number), but N866DN (31977/6100) is certificated and registered as a 737-900ER, although some sources continue incorrectly to cite customer numbers for later NGs.
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Old 8th May 2020, 05:11
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I always thought the last BOAC/BA 707 was the one outside the Franklin Institute in Philadelphia which was scrapped in 1989.
I recall flying a 707 into Philidelphia and leaving it there for Boeing to collect as part of the deal for the next purchase of a 747. I then recall reading an article about how a 707 was towed through Philly at night, traffc lights etc being removed to allow it to pass, it being presented to the Franklin Institute by Boeing. Not long afterwards I was on another trip to Philly, and walking around a corner was staggered to see the tail assembly of a 707 sticking out into the street - G-A??? ( can't remember and can't access my logbooks right now. ) from the Franklin Institute. I went inside and told them that I had flown that very aircraft into Philly not long before, on its last flight, and could I have a free entry to have another look at it ? Granted. The flight deck was exactly as I had last seen it, with the exception that all the then rewindable, clocks with stopwatch function had been taken out of the Pilot's, F/engs and Nav's instrument panels !


BOAC acquired a Boeing 707............ It was very different to the other BOAC 707s. One of the differences was the switches went up for on and down for off.
Many years later I was involved with a ( eventually short lived ! ) start up 747 freighter operator at Heathrow, the owner of which purchased a 747 from Flying Tigers in the USA, and the switches were the opposite way to the BA 747's that I remembered, and ... before we could put it on the British CAA register, we had to re-write all the flying manuals and check lists, to change the words ..........Warning Lamps to Warning Lights ! Bureaucracy Rules - OK ?
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Old 8th May 2020, 06:44
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Originally Posted by WHBM View Post
Boeing stopped offering the Rolls-Royce 707 after 1963, so BOAC, like the others, had to go for the P&W powered version for subsequent orders. Boeing only built 37 of them. Douglas carried on with the Rolls version of the DC-8 for a couple of years longer but then gave up as well. Possibly this was because nobody was ordering any more. The turbofan Rolls had been a popular early type when P&W only offered turbojets, but when they put a fan on the JT3D that reversed the advantage and they took the market. It might have surprised Boeing that BOAC, the principal Rolls purchaser, continued to buy odd 707s, in ones and twos, because all the emphasis was they were only going to buy VC-10s now.

The RR-powered 707 was the same basic airframe as the 707-320, the contemporary P&W JT4A turbojet intercontinental version of the original 707. When Boeing and P&W introduced the turbofan 707-320B they also made a number of airframe changes. Although surely justified, this was also said to have been done to prevent existing 707-320 uses upgrading by just changing the engine - putting the notably more efficient turbofan onto the shorter range 707-120 and 720 had been done without such changes, and a lot of the early production of these types was put through the engine conversion and got a big improvement, to the dismay of Boeing sales teams who wanted to sell whole new aircraft, at a time when the initial big jet changeover orders were now falling away.
Thank you WHBM.

I remember the last Conway engined BA 707 (G-APFJ I think) in the UK being scrapped at RAF Cosford in 2006 - not by the RAF museum who didnít own it but by BA themselves. It had flown into Cosford under its own power even on their short runway. The cockpit / fuselage is now with the MOF at East Fortune I believe.

Together with the Trident and VC-10, of the three aircraft that they owned and ďpreservedĒ at Cosford the 707 was easily the rarest, and itís scrapping pretty much summed up their attitude to history at the time. What a waste. I have to say I lost a lot of respect for BA on that day!


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Old 8th May 2020, 06:50
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Originally Posted by ExSp33db1rd View Post
I recall flying a 707 into Philidelphia and leaving it there for Boeing to collect as part of the deal for the next purchase of a 747. I then recall reading an article about how a 707 was towed through Philly at night, traffc lights etc being removed to allow it to pass, it being presented to the Franklin Institute by Boeing. Not long afterwards I was on another trip to Philly, and walking around a corner was staggered to see the tail assembly of a 707 sticking out into the street - G-A??? ( can't remember and can't access my logbooks right now. ) from the Franklin Institute. I went inside and told them that I had flown that very aircraft into Philly not long before, on its last flight, and could I have a free entry to have another look at it ? Granted. The flight deck was exactly as I had last seen it, with the exception that all the then rewindable, clocks with stopwatch function had been taken out of the Pilot's, F/engs and Nav's instrument panels !
Great story! I presume the wings had been shortened in some way before itís journey down the streets of Philadelphia?!


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Old 8th May 2020, 07:12
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Bit more BOAC 707 Trivia -

G-ARWE was written off LHR 1968 -
BOAC replaced it with G-AWHU, a new 707-379C one of a trio built for Saturn but NTU. (reported still stored at Al Fujairah. This 707 was likely the very different one as mentioned above to the other BOAC 707's. One of the differences was the switches went up for on and down for off.

In late 1968 BOAC took ex British Eagle's new 707-365C G-ATZD which had been on lease to MEA summer 1968

The Super VC-10 W/O at Dawsons Field in 1970 was replaced by 707-336C G-AYLT - The last 707 order built for BOAC 1971
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Old 8th May 2020, 09:02
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Originally Posted by ExSp33db1rd View Post
I recall flying a 707 into Philidelphia and leaving it there for Boeing to collect as part of the deal for the next purchase of a 747. I then recall reading an article about how a 707 was towed through Philly at night, traffc lights etc being removed to allow it to pass, it being presented to the Franklin Institute by Boeing. Not long afterwards I was on another trip to Philly, and walking around a corner was staggered to see the tail assembly of a 707 sticking out into the street - G-A??? ( can't remember and can't access my logbooks right now. )
It was G-APFP, WFU at Philly May 1975... Was the trip to Philly a revenue flight or did you ferry it empty?
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Old 8th May 2020, 10:24
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Originally Posted by Wyvernfan View Post
Great story! I presume the wings had been shortened in some way before itís journey down the streets of Philadelphia?!
Ever so slightly.




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Old 8th May 2020, 12:08
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Haha, yes indeed. Great photo by the way !



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Old 8th May 2020, 19:57
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I found this photo on the internet. It was taken at Fujairah airport 2 years ago during a fire training exercise.. Looks like a Boeing 707 to me (although some expert might prove me wrong ) and it is the right colour for 4L-GAS.



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Old 8th May 2020, 20:08
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Originally Posted by suninmyeyes View Post
I found this photo on the internet. It was taken at Fujairah airport 2 years ago during a fire training exercise.. Looks like a Boeing 707 to me (although some expert might prove me wrong ) and it is the right colour for 4L-GAS.
Correct on both counts.
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Old 9th May 2020, 05:08
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Was the trip to Philly a revenue flight or did you ferry it empty?
Dunno, can't remember, but think revenue, regret can't just put my hands on the relevant logbook right now.
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Old 9th May 2020, 11:43
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Originally Posted by Dan_Brown View Post
There are the Omega Air Tanker B707's. Civil registration. I gather they are in good condition.
Slightly OT, but there are reportedly around 100 707s still active (the majority being E-3s, E-6s and E-8s).
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Old 9th May 2020, 14:44
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G-ARWE

Just as an aside re "1968 BOAC Boeing 707 G-ARWE was destroyed in a fire at Heathrow."
A few years ago I met one of the cabin crew who was onboard the above aircraft, and has survived to this date. One gallant crew member stayed as long as she could, but sadly perished.
G-ARWE on which plenty as been written, was brought back to Heathrow, already with an engine fire, and then the resultant fire destroyed the aircraft. The engine that left the aircraft was discovered in a flooded gravel pit, now Thorpe Park.
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Old 9th May 2020, 15:21
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Originally Posted by treadigraph View Post
It was G-APFP, WFU at Philly May 1975... Was the trip to Philly a revenue flight or did you ferry it empty?
G-APFP was involved in a nose gear up landing at Heathrow on March 31st 1967. The following days Daily Mirror had a big front page picture under the headline "IN BY A NOSE!".
According to the accompanying report the pilot was Peter Mains-Smith, who with a crew of four had been doing circuits and bumps at Stansted and spent ninety minutes trying to get the nose wheel down before diverting to Heathrow. Strangely the incident seems to have escaped the notice of the Aviation Safety Network database. I'm guessing that it wasn't an April fools day hoax story!
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Old 9th May 2020, 16:17
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Originally Posted by Alan Baker View Post
G-APFP was involved in a nose gear up landing at Heathrow on March 31st 1967. The following days Daily Mirror had a big front page picture under the headline "IN BY A NOSE!".
According to the accompanying report the pilot was Peter Mains-Smith, who with a crew of four had been doing circuits and bumps at Stansted and spent ninety minutes trying to get the nose wheel down before diverting to Heathrow. Strangely the incident seems to have escaped the notice of the Aviation Safety Network database. I'm guessing that it wasn't an April fools day hoax story!
No, not a hoax, and it certainly didn't escape the attention of the AAIB (Report EW/C/162 refers).

Reportedly the aircraft had just come off maintenance ...
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Old 10th May 2020, 10:51
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At least some of the Omega Air tankers are ex RAAF and before that Qantas 338s.

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Old 11th May 2020, 14:30
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This photo taken in February 2018 shows the Fujairah boneyard quite well with the Boeing 707 in the distance.



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