BEA Trident London - Moscow 1971
The T3 lacked the range; I believe Athens was the furthest a T3 flew.
it dropped it's inert payload into Red Square
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathias_Rust
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WHBM - you are quite correct; but I think after the wing cracks were detected (1977/78) on the T3's and strengthening plating had to be installed their range was reduced due to the extra weight / fuel burn?
Ahh the good old uncle Charlie's landing technique - when asked about cross wind landings and which one he recommended allegedly said "fly it onto the runway - the undercarriage is strong enough"... Didn't mention the wing spar on the T3 though ;-)
In all truth the larger capacity Trident 3s were most suited for the densest but quite short routes from Heathrow, to Paris (when not Tristar operated), Amsterdam, and the UK Shuttle trunks. These didn't need a lot of fuel and didn't get a lot of freight, so were quite lightweight. There were sufficient 2Es for the longer runs.
The shortfall in 3B capacity while the wing mods were being done led to BOA- um, er, BA Long Haul Division loaning a couple of spare VC-10s to BE - um, er, BA European Division, to cover things, to an extent that they appear formally scheduled in a 1979 timetable I have, to Amsterdam, Lisbon, etc.
Blind pew, if you were flying the Shuttle routes at the end of their Trident operation in the early 1980s, I quite likely was pax behind you. Did you make that stunning departure I had from Manchester for Heathrow one afternoon when I was seated in the final rearward-facing seat row, looking at my new, prospective, serious client in the first forward-facing row opposite, who were it not for my seatbelt would have got me slam in his face when we rotated on liftoff. "Gripper" my a**e !
The shortfall in 3B capacity while the wing mods were being done led to BOA- um, er, BA Long Haul Division loaning a couple of spare VC-10s to BE - um, er, BA European Division, to cover things, to an extent that they appear formally scheduled in a 1979 timetable I have, to Amsterdam, Lisbon, etc.
Blind pew, if you were flying the Shuttle routes at the end of their Trident operation in the early 1980s, I quite likely was pax behind you. Did you make that stunning departure I had from Manchester for Heathrow one afternoon when I was seated in the final rearward-facing seat row, looking at my new, prospective, serious client in the first forward-facing row opposite, who were it not for my seatbelt would have got me slam in his face when we rotated on liftoff. "Gripper" my a**e !
My log book shows I operated GAVFM to Moscow on 14/5/69 flight time 3.20 and 3.45 return
Again on 22/9/69 GAVFH 3.20 outbound but on the return diverted into Copenhagen Kastrup with an engine problem
Operations to moscow were always interesting as diversion airfields ( available to western airlines) were at a premium and fuel to divert to Helsinki was tight.
Again on 22/9/69 GAVFH 3.20 outbound but on the return diverted into Copenhagen Kastrup with an engine problem
Operations to moscow were always interesting as diversion airfields ( available to western airlines) were at a premium and fuel to divert to Helsinki was tight.
As a passenger-on dads subload tickets i loved Tridents and thought them very comfortable :went all over Europe on them. Longest trip was T2 to Cyprus , pitching up a ta BA office in Kyrenia i think we asked about loads for the following night a Monday only to be told -we might get you away on Thursday because of a medical conference taking all the seats. Off to Nicosia-as it was then- that night to await the transiting BOAC VC10 in the hope of a seat-no chance couple of other flights that day another BOAC and the regular T2 and we ares till stuck altho some sub load pax get away on these. But patience tells and alte afternoon full Cyprus Airways flight has 4 pax no shows. , There you go lads but you will have to run -and run we did , no security in those days and made it home.
Also the interchange of aircraft due to various ATC strikes etc , went to faro on honeymoon an clapped out Airtours 707 436 , deafening at the back. A week later and the return is a shuttle configured T3 which was full but managed Faro London Ok.
i never knew what a poor performer close to the ground it was until going to Rome with a friend who was a BOAC 707 FO who really didn't like the idea of sitting backwards and who regaled us , no doubt BOAC bias added, about how tricky the Trident was near the ground.
So I ahd alot of fun and adventures with tridents and think of them fondly and enjoyed greatly looking round the nose section at FNB
Lovely thread and very nice of the guys who flew wha was for its time quite an innovative machine with there experiences of the days before the magenta line
PB
Also the interchange of aircraft due to various ATC strikes etc , went to faro on honeymoon an clapped out Airtours 707 436 , deafening at the back. A week later and the return is a shuttle configured T3 which was full but managed Faro London Ok.
i never knew what a poor performer close to the ground it was until going to Rome with a friend who was a BOAC 707 FO who really didn't like the idea of sitting backwards and who regaled us , no doubt BOAC bias added, about how tricky the Trident was near the ground.
So I ahd alot of fun and adventures with tridents and think of them fondly and enjoyed greatly looking round the nose section at FNB
Lovely thread and very nice of the guys who flew wha was for its time quite an innovative machine with there experiences of the days before the magenta line
PB
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Tridents in China
This thread stirred happy memories of a trip to Shanghai and on to Beijing in 1982.
As we are boarding an American tourist asks my boss what kind of jet this is. Boss replied, beaming with pride, that "actually it's a British jet, a Hawker Siddeley Trident." Tourists wife freaks.... "Oh my God, I used to own a Triumph Stag!"
On board one of the passengers having trouble getting the seat belt threaded through the buckle because the strap was severely frayed. No problem, out comes an impressive chef's knife and after chopping off 3" from the strap all is well.
Landing in Beijing was interesting.... cruising altitude maintained until over the airport followed by what felt to all was a spiral dive for the runway and some serious braking to finish up with a very high speed turn-off at the far end.... someone suggested the pilots were ex-military, but they seemed current enough to me.
I also recall an RR engineer on that flight saying that the Spey test stand was out of service... apparently the concrete base was not well secured to the underlying mud with alarming results at high thrust.
Times change, all very spiffy now.
PJ
As we are boarding an American tourist asks my boss what kind of jet this is. Boss replied, beaming with pride, that "actually it's a British jet, a Hawker Siddeley Trident." Tourists wife freaks.... "Oh my God, I used to own a Triumph Stag!"
On board one of the passengers having trouble getting the seat belt threaded through the buckle because the strap was severely frayed. No problem, out comes an impressive chef's knife and after chopping off 3" from the strap all is well.
Landing in Beijing was interesting.... cruising altitude maintained until over the airport followed by what felt to all was a spiral dive for the runway and some serious braking to finish up with a very high speed turn-off at the far end.... someone suggested the pilots were ex-military, but they seemed current enough to me.
I also recall an RR engineer on that flight saying that the Spey test stand was out of service... apparently the concrete base was not well secured to the underlying mud with alarming results at high thrust.
Times change, all very spiffy now.
PJ
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Just a little more information having come across an old BEA timetable for Spring 1970.
Moscow flights to Sheremetievo Airport
Flight BE910 Mo, We, Fr departs 1050 arrives 1615 – non stop with the return Flight BE911 after a 65 minute turnaround departs 1720 arrives back at LHR at 1855.
The timetable also gives the Aeroflot reciprocal flight on Tu Th Sa by Il62.
First Class return fare £102; Economy return fare £77.25p; excess baggage at £1.05 per kilogramme.
Nicosia flights
Flight BE296 on Sats only departs 2230 arrives 0330 – non stop with the return Flight BE297 after a 75 minute turnaround departs 0445 arrives back at LHR at 0820.
Flight BE298 on Sats only departs 1545 arrives 2045 – non-stop with return Flight BE299 after a nightstop departing at 1100 arriving back at LHR at 1435.
All other Trident flights are via Rome or Athens and with the last leg via a Cyprus Airways flight sometimes code shared but all listed as being on Tridents.
First Class return fare £124; Economy return fare £82.70p; excess baggage at £1.24 per kilogramme.
Tel Aviv flights
Flight BE221 Sun only departs 1050 arrives 1615 – non stop with the return Flight BE222 after a 50 minute turnaround departs 1705 arrives back at LHR at 2055.
All other flights are via Rome or Rome and Athens.
First Class return fare £140.25; Economy return fare £94.70p; excess baggage at £1.41 per kilogramme.
Timetable seating plans show 16 forward facing First Class Seats; 36 rearward facing Tourist seats and 40 forward facing Tourist seats.
Moscow flights to Sheremetievo Airport
Flight BE910 Mo, We, Fr departs 1050 arrives 1615 – non stop with the return Flight BE911 after a 65 minute turnaround departs 1720 arrives back at LHR at 1855.
The timetable also gives the Aeroflot reciprocal flight on Tu Th Sa by Il62.
First Class return fare £102; Economy return fare £77.25p; excess baggage at £1.05 per kilogramme.
Nicosia flights
Flight BE296 on Sats only departs 2230 arrives 0330 – non stop with the return Flight BE297 after a 75 minute turnaround departs 0445 arrives back at LHR at 0820.
Flight BE298 on Sats only departs 1545 arrives 2045 – non-stop with return Flight BE299 after a nightstop departing at 1100 arriving back at LHR at 1435.
All other Trident flights are via Rome or Athens and with the last leg via a Cyprus Airways flight sometimes code shared but all listed as being on Tridents.
First Class return fare £124; Economy return fare £82.70p; excess baggage at £1.24 per kilogramme.
Tel Aviv flights
Flight BE221 Sun only departs 1050 arrives 1615 – non stop with the return Flight BE222 after a 50 minute turnaround departs 1705 arrives back at LHR at 2055.
All other flights are via Rome or Rome and Athens.
First Class return fare £140.25; Economy return fare £94.70p; excess baggage at £1.41 per kilogramme.
Timetable seating plans show 16 forward facing First Class Seats; 36 rearward facing Tourist seats and 40 forward facing Tourist seats.
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It was worse than that; quite a sad saga that explains quite a lot about why we Brits weren't very good at selling aeroplanes outside UK.
In the beginning (of this saga) Hawker Siddeley had on the drawing board the HS121. It was about T3 sized, and planned to use three RR Medway engines. It might have been a viable competitor to the later B727, taking the market that went to that aeroplane.
But BEA said "it's far too big. Make it titchy and we'll buy some". So they did, the ludicrously undersized T1. Later they upgraded that to the T2 at BEA's request, about the limit for Speys (the Medway was never produced once the HS 121 was ditched).
Eventually BEA woke up to the size of aeroplane they should have bought in the first in the first place, and asked HS to make the T2 bigger yet.
So they stretched the T2 and added the RB162 boost engine, a compact turbojet that had been developed as one of many lift engines for vertical lift in the days before the brilliant Harrier defined that technology.
So the T3 was an abomination. Four engines (so not a TRIdent anymore?), five if you include the APU.
Now if BEA had simply ordered the original HS121 in the first place.... Or if HS had stuck to their guns and marketed their 121 internationally despite BEA.....
In the beginning (of this saga) Hawker Siddeley had on the drawing board the HS121. It was about T3 sized, and planned to use three RR Medway engines. It might have been a viable competitor to the later B727, taking the market that went to that aeroplane.
But BEA said "it's far too big. Make it titchy and we'll buy some". So they did, the ludicrously undersized T1. Later they upgraded that to the T2 at BEA's request, about the limit for Speys (the Medway was never produced once the HS 121 was ditched).
Eventually BEA woke up to the size of aeroplane they should have bought in the first in the first place, and asked HS to make the T2 bigger yet.
So they stretched the T2 and added the RB162 boost engine, a compact turbojet that had been developed as one of many lift engines for vertical lift in the days before the brilliant Harrier defined that technology.
So the T3 was an abomination. Four engines (so not a TRIdent anymore?), five if you include the APU.
Now if BEA had simply ordered the original HS121 in the first place.... Or if HS had stuck to their guns and marketed their 121 internationally despite BEA.....
But G-AVYE was a Trident 1E, which was a souped-up version of the 1C (featuring the infamous 7-abreast configuration).
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But G-AVYE was a Trident 1E, which was a souped-up version of the 1C (featuring the infamous 7-abreast configuration).
During A re-engine of Trident 1C during the mid 60s there was a period when it was possible to have 3 different models of Spey on the same airframe. 505/10, 505/5E and 505/5F all with different operating limits. It made for interesting T/O calculations
The 7-across Trident 1E was an order for five aircraft for Channel Airways, a real bottom-feeder carrier of the time where Sqn Ldr Jack Jones, who ran it, packed as many seats as he could into their fleet (quite small but very varied).
Their Tridents were an extraordinarily complex type for an airline who had previously had nothing bigger than Viscounts or DC4s, and was compounded by their main base at Southend not even having a runway long enough to operate them from (I once used up most of it landing a Cessna 152 there, but that's a different story
), so their Tridents had to operate from Stansted. However they were also short of cash, as ever apparently, so three of the five were never delivered and just sat at hatfield, one was eventually sold by Hawker Siddeley to Ceylon and two more to BKS, Channel only taking delivery of two aircraft with this seating arrangement. They still had no real good Mediterranean charter contracts for them, one aircraft was finally placed with a West Berlin travel company operating from Tegel, while the other was grounded AOG at Stansted being steadily robbed for spares to keep the first going, Channel having run out of any credit with Hawker Siddeley by this time (they simultaneously did the same with BAC for some new One-Elevens they ordered). When Channel went under early in 1972 the Tridents joined BKS, later renamed Northeast, which was owned by BA and that's how they eventually all got onto the BA fleet. The 7-across seating had long gone. I bet the maintenance records raised some eyebrows at Heathrow.
You will notice the squashed seating is only in the forward half of the cabin, it was 6-across at the rear, as I understand HS could only make the evacuation limits work for this number. The smaller seats were (in theory) assigned to families with small children, but I bet that never worked out on the day.
Their Tridents were an extraordinarily complex type for an airline who had previously had nothing bigger than Viscounts or DC4s, and was compounded by their main base at Southend not even having a runway long enough to operate them from (I once used up most of it landing a Cessna 152 there, but that's a different story
), so their Tridents had to operate from Stansted. However they were also short of cash, as ever apparently, so three of the five were never delivered and just sat at hatfield, one was eventually sold by Hawker Siddeley to Ceylon and two more to BKS, Channel only taking delivery of two aircraft with this seating arrangement. They still had no real good Mediterranean charter contracts for them, one aircraft was finally placed with a West Berlin travel company operating from Tegel, while the other was grounded AOG at Stansted being steadily robbed for spares to keep the first going, Channel having run out of any credit with Hawker Siddeley by this time (they simultaneously did the same with BAC for some new One-Elevens they ordered). When Channel went under early in 1972 the Tridents joined BKS, later renamed Northeast, which was owned by BA and that's how they eventually all got onto the BA fleet. The 7-across seating had long gone. I bet the maintenance records raised some eyebrows at Heathrow.You will notice the squashed seating is only in the forward half of the cabin, it was 6-across at the rear, as I understand HS could only make the evacuation limits work for this number. The smaller seats were (in theory) assigned to families with small children, but I bet that never worked out on the day.
WHBM
Never flew the three as for a long time it was deemed too difficult to fly three marks but when more competent management arrived all four types were flown by the same crew.
I had migrated to the VC10 by then...one of the stories when the VC10 was flying on European routes whilst the T3s where being repaired was of a crew delaying a Frankfurt whilst catering fetched some bone china as they weren't prepared to accept the s@@t brown, handleless Bakelite mugs that BEA crews had to endure.
18 months later I was flying four different types of DC 9 without any problems..different engines..wing/fuselage incidence...loading..fuel systems and one was a freighter.
Shows what Johnny Foreigner can do ;-)
Never flew the three as for a long time it was deemed too difficult to fly three marks but when more competent management arrived all four types were flown by the same crew.
I had migrated to the VC10 by then...one of the stories when the VC10 was flying on European routes whilst the T3s where being repaired was of a crew delaying a Frankfurt whilst catering fetched some bone china as they weren't prepared to accept the s@@t brown, handleless Bakelite mugs that BEA crews had to endure.
18 months later I was flying four different types of DC 9 without any problems..different engines..wing/fuselage incidence...loading..fuel systems and one was a freighter.
Shows what Johnny Foreigner can do ;-)
For those of you who have not learned to take Blind Pew's tales of derring do with a pinch of salt I have an alternative opinion on why the Tri 3b was introduced to BEA as a separate flight.
By not requiring the soon-to-be-retiring senior men to becom multi-qualified it gave management the opportunity to promote to the top fleet relatively junior captains from Vanguards who were the ones with lots of jet experience as RAF pilots and Comet co-pilots. They were also the ones who believed in training rather than checking.
By not requiring the soon-to-be-retiring senior men to becom multi-qualified it gave management the opportunity to promote to the top fleet relatively junior captains from Vanguards who were the ones with lots of jet experience as RAF pilots and Comet co-pilots. They were also the ones who believed in training rather than checking.
Bill these RAF pilots ex Vanguards and Comets who were such wonderful trainers...would they be the same ones whose genesis was a peacetime airforce that lost 200+ airframes in one year in the 60s..had some fleet loses (%) greater than the Starfighter and trained those that stalled a Comet,Vanguard and a Trident 1 with 100% loss of life?
Please answer a question for me - what was the point of knowing how many static wicks the Trident possessed or does your definition of training differ from mine?
Please answer a question for me - what was the point of knowing how many static wicks the Trident possessed or does your definition of training differ from mine?
Last edited by blind pew; 15th Apr 2016 at 13:04.
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what was the point of knowing how many static wicks the Trident possessed