Halifax V9992 Crashed 18 August 1942 near Thirsk
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Halifax V9992 Crashed 18 August 1942 near Thirsk
I'm hoping the the Power of Prune can help bring some peace of mind to an elderly lady.
76 Sqn Halifax II V9992 (MP-M) crashed near Sowerby, Thirsk, N Yorks on 18 Aug 1942. All crew were lost. On behalf of the daughter of one of the crew, now an elderly but quite spry lady, who was tiny when he died and never knew her father I'm trying to find out as much as I can about the accident. I know that it was returning from the range at Filey on 3 engines and apparently spun in. I have the crew names (Pilot was Flt Sgt Gillies) and burial details, and I'm in touch with the 76 Sqn Association, but can anyone add any information to what we know at present? We're in the process of trying to get hold of the accident record (if there is one) and the relevant service record. Any information would be greatly appreciated - what I've found out so far has deeply touched the lady.
Thanks in advance.
DS
76 Sqn Halifax II V9992 (MP-M) crashed near Sowerby, Thirsk, N Yorks on 18 Aug 1942. All crew were lost. On behalf of the daughter of one of the crew, now an elderly but quite spry lady, who was tiny when he died and never knew her father I'm trying to find out as much as I can about the accident. I know that it was returning from the range at Filey on 3 engines and apparently spun in. I have the crew names (Pilot was Flt Sgt Gillies) and burial details, and I'm in touch with the 76 Sqn Association, but can anyone add any information to what we know at present? We're in the process of trying to get hold of the accident record (if there is one) and the relevant service record. Any information would be greatly appreciated - what I've found out so far has deeply touched the lady.
Thanks in advance.
DS
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Ask these folks, their level of knowledge of historical stuff like this is bordering on disturbing.
Historic Aviation
Historic Aviation
Sounds possibly like loss of control during asymmetric flight.
Megan/ Dave ReidUK , I agree,very possible loss of control on three Engines.
It was Cheshire who first noted that not many Halibags were coming back on three engines and conducted a test to find out why.
He struggled to regain control after a stall. Handley Page refused to modify production and it was only after a Polish test pilot was killed doing further tests, that they agreed to changes- according to Max Hastings Bomber Command.
It was Cheshire who first noted that not many Halibags were coming back on three engines and conducted a test to find out why.
He struggled to regain control after a stall. Handley Page refused to modify production and it was only after a Polish test pilot was killed doing further tests, that they agreed to changes- according to Max Hastings Bomber Command.
On behalf of the daughter of one of the crew, now an elderly but quite spry lady, who was tiny when he died and never knew her father I'm trying to find out as much as I can about the accident...... 76 Sqn Association.......Any information would be greatly appreciated - what I've found out so far has deeply touched the lady.
Re the rudder reversal problem* inherent in the (small) fin design I believed it was after the the loss of a number of leading boffins in the RRE (Radar Research Establishment) Halifax from Defford that spun in from height with the same control problems that HP were ordered to sort it pronto. The fix itself was relatively straightforward - larger fin and a change in the position of the rudder hinge.
However, it was still aerodynamically possible to get rudder reversal in certain conditions on any twin fin design; it was still warned about on the Shackleton, although thankfully never demonstrated!
* Rudder reversal: If applying a large rudder input, for instance in the event of an engine failure, with a small fin and the hinge line more 'central', it was possible the airflow could 'catch' the leading edge of the rudder and force it hard over (ie full deflection) and the airflow over the trailing edge plus pilot input was insufficient force to recover it - hence the spiral in.
However, it was still aerodynamically possible to get rudder reversal in certain conditions on any twin fin design; it was still warned about on the Shackleton, although thankfully never demonstrated!
* Rudder reversal: If applying a large rudder input, for instance in the event of an engine failure, with a small fin and the hinge line more 'central', it was possible the airflow could 'catch' the leading edge of the rudder and force it hard over (ie full deflection) and the airflow over the trailing edge plus pilot input was insufficient force to recover it - hence the spiral in.
DeepestSouth, I post this so you might gain an understanding of what happens should you loose control in an asymmetric situation. In this case the left engine failed and the pilot lost control of the situation, which should not have happened. As others have mentioned, the Halifax did have an inherent problem with the rudder design, and this may well have had hand to play.
David Thompson, photos of the Darlington headstones are on the link in my previous post.
David Thompson, photos of the Darlington headstones are on the link in my previous post.
David Thompson, photos of the Darlington headstones are on the link in my previous post.
Good idea David.Have not read the document as yet, but may of interest re the Halifax and its problems.
http://www.jp137.com/lts/dishax.pdf
Last edited by megan; 19th Jun 2015 at 04:07.
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Thank you all SO much for all this information - I cannot overestimate how grateful and moved the lady is with with all this help from - as she put it - total strangers. She wants me to express her most sincere gratitude to you all. David Thompson - I'll pm you shortly.
I was particularly interested to learn of the problem with the Halifax which is of immense interest to the lady and her family and may explain a family tale, originating with her father's brother (also a Halifax crew member) that sabotage was suspected in this and another Halifax loss a few days earlier. Despite knowing several ex-Halifax crew I had never heard of these problems. I occasionally see a Halifax pilot who lives locally (he's now aged 94) so I'll ask him and report back if he can add anything to the history.
One last question, if I may - does anyone know exactly where the crash was? All we know is 'near Sowerby'?
Once again, many, many thanks to you all.
DS
I was particularly interested to learn of the problem with the Halifax which is of immense interest to the lady and her family and may explain a family tale, originating with her father's brother (also a Halifax crew member) that sabotage was suspected in this and another Halifax loss a few days earlier. Despite knowing several ex-Halifax crew I had never heard of these problems. I occasionally see a Halifax pilot who lives locally (he's now aged 94) so I'll ask him and report back if he can add anything to the history.
One last question, if I may - does anyone know exactly where the crash was? All we know is 'near Sowerby'?
Once again, many, many thanks to you all.
DS
Megan,
Thank you for the link to that very enlightening document; obviously a lot more went in to the discovery of the problem and subsequent modification than I was aware. Of note, I had the privilege of flying with a couple of ex-Halifax pilots in my early days on Shackletons (hence the warnings about rudder reversal), and one of my relations was lost in the Defford crash.
Thank you for the link to that very enlightening document; obviously a lot more went in to the discovery of the problem and subsequent modification than I was aware. Of note, I had the privilege of flying with a couple of ex-Halifax pilots in my early days on Shackletons (hence the warnings about rudder reversal), and one of my relations was lost in the Defford crash.
Last edited by Shackman; 19th Jun 2015 at 12:13. Reason: speeling!
It begs the question as to how many Halifax were lost to 'finstall/rudder lockover' corkscrewing over Germany. We will never know of course.
