WW2 Bomber pilots
Avitor - are you sure - read the biography of Sir Wilfred Freeman - he was persistently trying to get larger calibre guns, and seemed to favour cannon over machine guns. Took him a while
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Weren't the Wellington and Whitley desiigned for two pilots - one to fly the aircraft and the other to navigate, until they brought in observers?
The RAF decided that they could fly more bombers & drop more bombs if they only had to have one pilot per plane. Though the FE may have had some official & unofficial flight training / experience. I can't recall when the decision was made without going to my books but it was possibly when Harris took over - so some earlier 'planes / earlier actions might have been designed / operated with two pilots.
Simple maths and cost / risk.
Simple maths and cost / risk.
Pre war Wellingtons/ Whitleys had 2 pilots as did the later Stirling/ Halifaxes and Manchesters. The Hampden and Blenheim had one,as per design.
For Bomber Command to expand, it was decided in the spring of 1942 to economize on aircrew and drop the 2nd pilot.
A number of Bomb Aimers were failed Pilots and these could be of use in an emergency.
The discussion re .50 calibre has been had on here before a number of years ago. The use of them had been put forward pre war,the reasons for non- implementation were supply issues until 1944. The Rose .5 turret was a private venture fitted to 1 Group and some 5 Group aircraft from late 44.
We could then go into Freeman Dysons research into doing away with turrets and armament altogether, which he computed would add 50mph to a Lancasters top speed. This was however not acceptable to 'bomber doctrine'.
For Bomber Command to expand, it was decided in the spring of 1942 to economize on aircrew and drop the 2nd pilot.
A number of Bomb Aimers were failed Pilots and these could be of use in an emergency.
The discussion re .50 calibre has been had on here before a number of years ago. The use of them had been put forward pre war,the reasons for non- implementation were supply issues until 1944. The Rose .5 turret was a private venture fitted to 1 Group and some 5 Group aircraft from late 44.
We could then go into Freeman Dysons research into doing away with turrets and armament altogether, which he computed would add 50mph to a Lancasters top speed. This was however not acceptable to 'bomber doctrine'.
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Rolling 20 / Load toad
I can agree with you both, as my Father was in Bomber Command at that time, before being shot down. He told me that due to the high loss rate being incurred by the RAF at the time Bomber Command could not expand with a two pilot strategy, hence the drop to one which occurred under Harris. As Load Toad says, maths and risk assessment at the time made the decision inevitable.
My Father thought an all Mosquito Bomber Command would have been safer for all concerned, as he only met one Mossie pilot when a Kregie as against many other's on the other 4 motor allied types.
Regards
Mr Mac
I can agree with you both, as my Father was in Bomber Command at that time, before being shot down. He told me that due to the high loss rate being incurred by the RAF at the time Bomber Command could not expand with a two pilot strategy, hence the drop to one which occurred under Harris. As Load Toad says, maths and risk assessment at the time made the decision inevitable.
My Father thought an all Mosquito Bomber Command would have been safer for all concerned, as he only met one Mossie pilot when a Kregie as against many other's on the other 4 motor allied types.
Regards
Mr Mac
Mr Mac, I think a lot of people thought the same re the Mosquito.Unfortunately industry was geared up for heavy bomber production. The Mosquito was very much a 'cottage industry' and we didn't have the skilled manpower required in sufficient quantities.
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WW2 Bomber Pilots
I don't know whether it applied to all, but 'Link' training was part of at least some Flight Engineer courses, and in the light of rolling20's comments it is interesting that it was Arthur Aaron's Bomb Aimer who landed his Stirling at Bone.
Dr Jekyll, the Luftwaffe did use Nitrous Oxide injected versions of the Ju 88 to intercept Mosquitos. Latterly they used specially adapted versions of the Me410 and He 219. The He 219 I believe was the first aircraft to shoot down a Mosquito in night combat over Germany.
Binbrook, I have not heard before of Flight Engineers before being taught to use the Link trainer. (Although I stand corrected as part of a FE's duties were to 'act as second pilot....' Although like I said, a number of Bomb Aimers were failed pilots). Most Link training was done at specialist schools or on Squadrons. There were some Link trainers, which allowed Pilot/Nav and Bomb Aimer to train together later in the war.
Binbrook, I have not heard before of Flight Engineers before being taught to use the Link trainer. (Although I stand corrected as part of a FE's duties were to 'act as second pilot....' Although like I said, a number of Bomb Aimers were failed pilots). Most Link training was done at specialist schools or on Squadrons. There were some Link trainers, which allowed Pilot/Nav and Bomb Aimer to train together later in the war.
Germany had to cope with all manner of threats during the bomber offensive. If it 'only' had to cope with fast unarmed bombers it would have 'only' had to seek a solution to that threat. Given it was fighting the Soviets, the Anericans, the British and the Empire...it had its work cut out...
One of the criticisms of the latter part of the Bomber Offensive, was why Harris didn't split his forces up and attack multiple targets consistently.
This would have increased the workload for the German Night Fighter force and stretched their resources further.
This would have increased the workload for the German Night Fighter force and stretched their resources further.
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Flight Engineer training
Link training as part of the Flight Engineer course at St Athan is referred to by Roy Simmonds in his reminiscences on the BBC 'People's War' website. I was also told a very long time ago that F/Es got 15 hours on Tigers or Magisters but I've not come across chapter and verse for it. Can anyone confirm?
Vortex_Generator, the LNSF , was just that a Light bomber force and was seen as being a nuisance.The Luftwaffe generally left them alone, apart from as I mentioned earlier using specially adapted nightfighters. Towards the end of the war 5 Group was attacking targets of precision
and also the devastating raid on Darmstadt in Sept44 was a 5 Group effort. Splitting the heavies may have been a more effective way of using Harris's resources. There was of course the fierce rivalry between Cochran and Bennett, which saw each commander competing for resources and prestige. Bennett not being too happy when he was forced by Harris to give up 3 squadrons to 5 Group in early 44.
and also the devastating raid on Darmstadt in Sept44 was a 5 Group effort. Splitting the heavies may have been a more effective way of using Harris's resources. There was of course the fierce rivalry between Cochran and Bennett, which saw each commander competing for resources and prestige. Bennett not being too happy when he was forced by Harris to give up 3 squadrons to 5 Group in early 44.
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Binbrook / Lightning 20
Had a word with my father who confirmed their Flight Engineer Lance Butler soon to be of RCAF 428 SQ Middleton St George attended a course on the Link trainer in the summer of 1943 at St Athan prior to them going on Operations in the September of that year. He was shot down with my father 3-4th Oct 1943 in Halifax S -SUGAR after bombing Kassel and bailed out near Kloster Haina in Western Germany becoming a prisoner of war though not in the same camps.
My Father crashed with the A/C due to turret jamming from shrapnel and two crew stayed with the A/C to try and free him (Sgt Ken McArthur Pilot and F/O Tom Elliot Bomb Aimer) both died on impact. Luck being with my father who's turret and tail section broke free on impact, and he survived with a damaged spine and temporary blindness. He always remembers these brave men who had the chance to bale out but elected to try and land their A/C to save the young (18 yr old Rear Gunner). I have taken my father back in to their graves in 2003 on the 3rd Oct (purely by coincidence I must say) and to the crash site, and hospitals where he was treated so well. We even met an Old man who had been a young boy when the A/C crashed who had hold of my fathers hand to stop him walking back into the burning A/C . Quite an emotional trip for all concerned.
Unfortunately I have never been able to get hold of anybody in Canada who is related to these brave men to express both his, and my families profound gratitude and admiration for these very brave men.
Regards
Mr Mac (Jnr !)
Had a word with my father who confirmed their Flight Engineer Lance Butler soon to be of RCAF 428 SQ Middleton St George attended a course on the Link trainer in the summer of 1943 at St Athan prior to them going on Operations in the September of that year. He was shot down with my father 3-4th Oct 1943 in Halifax S -SUGAR after bombing Kassel and bailed out near Kloster Haina in Western Germany becoming a prisoner of war though not in the same camps.
My Father crashed with the A/C due to turret jamming from shrapnel and two crew stayed with the A/C to try and free him (Sgt Ken McArthur Pilot and F/O Tom Elliot Bomb Aimer) both died on impact. Luck being with my father who's turret and tail section broke free on impact, and he survived with a damaged spine and temporary blindness. He always remembers these brave men who had the chance to bale out but elected to try and land their A/C to save the young (18 yr old Rear Gunner). I have taken my father back in to their graves in 2003 on the 3rd Oct (purely by coincidence I must say) and to the crash site, and hospitals where he was treated so well. We even met an Old man who had been a young boy when the A/C crashed who had hold of my fathers hand to stop him walking back into the burning A/C . Quite an emotional trip for all concerned.
Unfortunately I have never been able to get hold of anybody in Canada who is related to these brave men to express both his, and my families profound gratitude and admiration for these very brave men.
Regards
Mr Mac (Jnr !)