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Gustave Whitehead: First in Flight breaking news

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Gustave Whitehead: First in Flight breaking news

Old 21st Jun 2015, 20:36
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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kitbag

so sorry that your world view is so anglocentric.

ailerons...lovely, even the courts in the united states said the wrights patent covered any method to change lift on wings indicating the aileron principle.

but it was the WRIGHTS and the WRIGHTS alone who overcame WARP DRAG (which we now call adverse aileron yaw)

IT WAS NOT THE WRIGHT BROTHERS light weight engine that was the breakthrough.

Oh, and because you are in the dark on so many things, NASA is looking at wing warping again with an interesting way of making metal move with out hinges using electricity .

Oh you EUROS! You would do anything to shoot down the wrights.

Tell me, on your pilot's license is there a picture of the guy who invented the aileron? Who is on th e british pilot license anyway?
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Old 21st Jun 2015, 22:06
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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skyhighfallguy where do you get your inferiority complex from?

I had to go back to your post 27 to get a sense of the issue. You challenge people to disagree with, in my view, a rather stupid statement:
And, it does so happen that every major aviation triumph was american. Anyone care to offer another opinion?
then fail to consider any other view but your own when you are so clearly wrong.
Shouting (or the internet equivalent) really doesn't work, especially when everyone else sees you as being wrong.

Rarely in science and technology does anybody come up with a totally new idea, invariably these are extensions of research carried out previously; the Wrights combined prior knowledge and got it to work.

BTW GBR licence has no pictures on it, they add nothing of value.
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Old 21st Jun 2015, 23:50
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Skyhifallguy is doing pretty well for a troll ; )
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Old 22nd Jun 2015, 00:17
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Maybe I am a troll. But I think the wrights invented the airplane. And it is not nationalistic pride. Whether you all like it or not, the Wrights flew first, and fully comprehended controlled, powered flight.

all of these europeans, inventing ailerons, gliding experiments that would have left us with body weight shift steering, these people had decades to work on things and they never got it right.

The wrights on the other hand used their own money, maintained a business to support their interest in flying and in four years OR SO managed to build/invent the airplane.

7 cylinder man , you make me laugh, the Wrights discovered how to counteract warp drag and the SAME METHOD is used today in many planes. Coordination of rudder and wing warping WHICH IS THE SAME PRINCIPLE AS AILERONS. Some planes use spoilers instead of ailerons, does this make ailerons obsolete? And as I mentioned, NASA is experimenting with new wing warping.

And that you talk about frise ailerons makes me laugh. I doubt if you could draw a frise aileron, let alone understand it. What did you do, look up adverse aileron yaw, find someone british and copy it down? COME ON


Kitbag adds that pictures add nothing of value. Oh, you mean like putting the Queen on your money?


All I've seen is a pathetic attempt to lessen the impact of the Wrights. Fine, over here we can take things like that. But we smile a knowing smile and shake our heads over those who missed out. We understand that it makes them feel better.

Last edited by skyhighfallguy; 22nd Jun 2015 at 00:42.
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Old 22nd Jun 2015, 00:59
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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Quantity and Quality

Those who support the Whitehead seem to believe that the volume of reprinted rewritten stories which appeared during 1901 about Whitehead flying somehow proves the case.

You might just as well say Lydia Pinkham's Vegetable Compound for the relief of female ailments was a true cure-all since her ads were in almost every issue of every newspaper printed in the US during the last quarter of the 19th century.

In the matter of WIlbur and Orville Wright vs Whitehead, it is also the quality of the evidence that matters. The Wrights produced a stack of contemporaneous diaries, notes and photos documenting every step of their progress - and what did Whitehead do ? He scribbled in aeronautical books that he had stolen from the Buffalo Public Library in 1897... he gave extensive self-promotional quotes to newspaper reporters... he made totally unsubstantiated and for the time patently absurd claims and excuses (such as a circling flight some 7 miles over Long Island Sound in winter) and that his machines couldn't be photographed in flight because they were too speedy, and that he had gone some 4-1/2 miles in a glider in the 1890's...

If this sort of historical novel is your area of interest then Ms. Brinchman's book will be a satisfying read. If, however, you prefer fact to fiction and reality to myth, try Tom Crouch's "The Bishop's Boys."
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Old 22nd Jun 2015, 01:22
  #86 (permalink)  
 
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Skyhifallguy is doing pretty well for a troll
He is, but it's rare to get one of this quality. Not since the days of SSG and his subsequent personas.
But I think the wrights invented the airplane
You are entitled to think whatever you like, but an argument needs to be backed with facts, which thus far you have failed in doing. If indeed we accept that the Wrights did invent the aeroplane, the question becomes, "why did they not patent it". All the patent fights were over the use of means of control, not the fact that others were building aeroplanes. Ipso facto, they did not invent the aeroplane. And no one is taking anything away from the Wrights achievements which were magnificent, although their subsequent actions put aeronautical development in the US back many, many years, to the extent US military aviators had to fly foreign aircraft during WW1, and the US industry built British designed aircraft.
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Old 22nd Jun 2015, 03:13
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I think the requisite elements were in some way known well known, at least identified, decades before the Wrights, before 1903: Lift, propulsion, some form of stability and control. The problem was less in identifying these, and more finding practical solutions. The mechanically-experienced Wrights applied their knowledge of lightweight bicycle structures to solve the problems.

But they did more: They saw the deficiencies in their competitors' designs, and studied and experimented to overcome those problems. Experimentation yielded efficient airfoil designs, not only of wings, but of propellers as well.

And so by the time they had settled on a physical design of the Flyer, the challenge was to fly it. They had prepared for this by flying a series of gliders. Here they learned the need for three-axis control.

So the Wrights contribution was not so much a single invention, but in perfecting the combination of known arts to create a working vehicle.
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Old 22nd Jun 2015, 03:40
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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megan

why didn't they patent the airplane? because their attorney, one of the finest patent attorneys of the time, told them the best way to protect their invention. It was a legal decision.

AS to the wrights slowing things down in the US, after the patent wars were won, things took off just fine.

And while it is true that in World War 1 our air service was not up to the european standards and we did fly Spads and other planes, we caught up quickly. WAR moves things along quickly and World War 1 had been going for quite awhile before we came in. We tried to stay out of that war.


And then of course ever since then, our planes have been the best. The first plane to fly from North America to Europe was a US plane in 1919.

And simply so many other accomplishments that it would take too long to list. But should I try?

For all practical purposes, the wrights invented the airplane. But that only is true if you mean an airplane that really worked, flew and was controllable. others were also rans. just because something had wings and a prop didn't make it a real airplane. I've seen airplanes with wings and a prop hung from a carnival ride, really what plane was even close to the wrights in 1903 and in the years just after that? There were planes that staggered into the air and slipped around turns with rudders. Or other planes with ailerons that turned terribly because those designers didn't understand what the Wrights understood.

Those "in the know" know the wrights invented the airplane. They have been honored in many ways including a newly planned movie to be made about them.

When TWA got their first constellation airliners , howard hughes went to Dayton, Ohio and took Orville for a ride OUT OF RESPECT for the contribution the wrights made.

I really don't care what the eurocentric defenders think. Their rationale is less than truthful. But they only fool themselves.

Just think of all the movies about cacey, santos dumont, bleriot, curtiss, or langley. Just think about all of the statues and honors to these people that didn't quite figure it out.

So dear euros, go rent, "those magnificent men in their flying machines" and dream of what might have been.
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Old 22nd Jun 2015, 07:37
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Nobody mention Alcock & Brown, Kohl, Sputnik or Gagarin or even von Braun, we'll cause the old troll to have a fit.

why didn't they patent the airplane? because their attorney, one of the finest patent attorneys of the time, told them the best way to protect their invention. It was a legal decision.
and the correct one of course, because it would have failed on every level.


Best to remember that Hollywood is entertainment, not historical fact.
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Old 22nd Jun 2015, 08:04
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The first plane to fly from North America to Europe was a US plane in 1919
Yes they did, by puddle jumping across the Atlantic using a string of ships as navigational aids and took eleven days.



Just over two weeks after them, two British lads managed the feat by going non stop. Which was the greater effort? An effort by a group with the where with all of an entire nation behind them via the military, or two individuals employed by an aircraft manufacturer?

Stop the willy waving, all contributed in their own way.

Lets say we change the subject as to who was first in space, or the first supersonic transport, or who was first across the Pacific.
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Old 22nd Jun 2015, 08:38
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Shall we ignore the troll?

A more prospective topic is suggested by Megan:
And no one is taking anything away from the Wrights achievements which were magnificent, although their subsequent actions put aeronautical development in the US back many, many years, to the extent US military aviators had to fly foreign aircraft during WW1, and the US industry built British designed aircraft.
For my money, the Wrights were the first to combine an adequate motor with an adequate (just) system of control, as the result of a proper research and development programme, and so get priority, if it has to be apportioned. But it is surprising that aviation didn't proceed much faster in the USA than it did. The little I know suggests that Curtiss was the big mover; he actually produced an aircraft that was used in WW I (by the US and the RNAS), and one that might have managed an Atlantic crossing non-stop.

Can we tell how much the slower progress in the US was due to the commercially minded Wrights waging a patent war, compared to a "Watch me, mes amis" attitude of the Europeans? There are, perhaps, even implications for IP law, in which the US has always been idiosyncratic, and often wrong.
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Old 22nd Jun 2015, 09:09
  #92 (permalink)  
 
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As dear old Frank Zappa once said, A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it is not open.

Excellent quote, very apt.

Time to listen to some more Zappa too, cheers 7-cylinder man!
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Old 22nd Jun 2015, 09:18
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Those who have the stamina might like to refer back to the long running thread on this forum:
Many of the points about( and defending ) the Wrights against their American ( i.e. Alaskan) based detractor were from Europe ( myself included) and other sites around the world.

In all this there was one demonstrably ignorant and pathetically xenophobic troll ( glendalegoon)whose offensive, irrational and finally unacceptably ad hominem remarks became so ridiculous that he was banned by the mods from the forum.
We now have a remarkable coincidence dear readers , that shows that it really is a small world.
In his post #200 on that thread glendalegoon informed us that :
By the way. I am greatly interested in the Wrights for may reasons, most should be obvious. But one reason is that the first man killed in a flight with the Wrights was a graduate of the same high school that I graduated from.
Now we have the recently joined member skyhighfallguy in his post #73 on this thread who also tells us that:

I've taken a keen interest in the wrights and really can't stand so many naysayers and history rewriters. The first passenger casualty, Lt Selfridge , lost during an Orville Wright flight graduated from the same high school I did.
I wonder if they know each other? .........

Last edited by Haraka; 22nd Jun 2015 at 11:10. Reason: Sp
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Old 22nd Jun 2015, 09:57
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Bravo Haraka!
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Old 22nd Jun 2015, 10:48
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Those who have the stamina might like to refer back to the long running thread on this forum..
Ah c'mon Haraka, that thread was fun! What did we get in the end - something like 30,000 views?
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Old 22nd Jun 2015, 15:06
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Hi Noyade,
Yes the thread was good for a long while, until it became obvious that the Pro- Voisin O.P. didn't really have much of substance to support his allegations and then the discussion just wallowed. I think what must have been the final straw for the mods was when a rather nasty and unjustified attack was launched on Tom Crouch, which could have headed in a direction towards possible legal consequences.
On the Tom Crouch side, I see we have carrolfgray ( presumably the same from huffington scientific) joining us.
If you have the time Carrol, in addition to the current, you might like to plow through the rest of this old thread :

http://www.pprune.org/aviation-histo...1908-a-10.html

Hopefully you will see that most ppruners on this forum are capable of reasoned, constructive and convivial debate.
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Old 22nd Jun 2015, 17:13
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Bobby Brown seems fairly apt!

Roxy and Elsewhere, Overnight Sensation and the Black Page awaiting my attention at the weekend.
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Old 22nd Jun 2015, 22:38
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Lets say we change the subject as to who was first in space, or the first supersonic transport, or who was first across the Pacific.
You could throw in east-to-west across the Atlantic.


The now banned troll has clearly spent far too much time in the Smithsonian, where American aeronautical firsts are trumpeted to the exclusion of the rest of the world. I can never understand the mentality, the USA has achieved amazing things in aeronautics, and are clearly in a world leading position - but this seems to lead many to deny that the rest of the world has ever achieved anything.


A few (okay, 15) years ago, I was at an SETP symposium in Regensberg where we had a paper from a German TP, I think probably Horst Phillip, who presented attempts to build and fly a replica of the Whitehead aircraft. I may have his paper tucked away in a drawer somewhere, but from memory the basic conclusion was that it was a horrible flying machine, but was capable of controlled powered flights for short periods - not unlike the Wrights.


Personally I think that the Wrights got lucky with a set of dead-end design solutions, Whitehead probably managed a short unimpressive hop not worthy of the history books as he didn't then develop it, and the various Brits in 1908 were only doing marginally better.

For my money, the aeroplane as we now recognise it was invented by Louis Bleriot circa 1908 - the Bleriot VIII is substantially the form of most modern aeroplanes, which he reached after a lot of serious research experimentation, and continued with afterwards with the very impressive Bleriot XI that crossed the English Channel.

G
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Old 25th Jun 2015, 00:15
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At risk of giving this hornet's nest another stir, does anyone know if a true flying replica of the Wrights' 1903 Flyer (including a working replica of the engine they used) has ever been built and proven to fly in anything other than a extended glide?
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Old 25th Jun 2015, 02:35
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The answer is yes. See here http://wright.nasa.gov/replica/rep1905.html

The replica flying. I know flights of 30 minutes were made, and the pilot was subsequently seriously injured in a crash which sounded very much as if the pitch sensitivity introduced a PIO.



Should you wonder about the comment re sensitivity in pitch, see here and you may understand why.



A replica engine running


Last edited by megan; 25th Jun 2015 at 03:03. Reason: Add info
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