The Wright brothers just glided in 1903. They flew in 1908.
Hello Simplex.
I think I'm seeing a pattern emerge.
Is this really about the Wrights or more to do with establishing criteria or parameters for what you consider the first practical aircraft flight?
So far we have...
No slopes (I mean geographically
).
No rails.
And certainly no catapults.
No skids.
Must have wheels.
Seen and documented by thousands.
Perform a figure-8.
How's life in France?
I think I'm seeing a pattern emerge.
Is this really about the Wrights or more to do with establishing criteria or parameters for what you consider the first practical aircraft flight?
So far we have...
No slopes (I mean geographically
).No rails.
And certainly no catapults.
No skids.
Must have wheels.
Seen and documented by thousands.
Perform a figure-8.
How's life in France?
And I think there is a "back door" to the Wiki issue. As you know, the Wright Brothers link is now blocked, due to vandalism, but this remains open...
Voisin 1907 biplane - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Go to Talk, and look at the bottom...
Easy! Make it the World's First Practical Aircraft with an Undercarriage.
Voisin 1907 biplane - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Go to Talk, and look at the bottom...
Easy! Make it the World's First Practical Aircraft with an Undercarriage.
Don't be silly Noyade. Henri Farman did not become a French citizen until 1937, so he couldn't possibly have been the first man to fly.
Santos Dumont was Brazilian, so that rules his 1906 adventure in the 14Bis out, so Léon Delagrange must have been the first man to fly, in his Voisin.
Santos Dumont was Brazilian, so that rules his 1906 adventure in the 14Bis out, so Léon Delagrange must have been the first man to fly, in his Voisin.
so he couldn't possibly have been the first man to fly.
Remember the Komet and the early Arado jets, you had to pick the bastards up at the end of the day. Not practical.
But the Voisin...well, it ticks all the boxes that Simplex has created.
This thread is not about the first to fly!
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sale, Australia
Age: 80
Posts: 3,832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The attached is a photo of Kitty Hawk. The circular road at the bottom encircles Kill Devil Hill, from where the 14th December "flight" took place using the 8° 50" slope.
The 17th December flights launched from the bottom of the red line, and the longest flight of the day (800 plus feet) terminated at the upper most part of the red line.
The launch point is a long, long way from the hill.
The 17th December flights launched from the bottom of the red line, and the longest flight of the day (800 plus feet) terminated at the upper most part of the red line.
The launch point is a long, long way from the hill.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Alaska
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Regarding Farman and Delagrange, it should be noted they were just test pilots and plane buyers. They can not be considered the designers of the airplanes they flew in 1907 and 1908.
Join Date: May 2014
Location: SoCal
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So, Mr. Simplex, if I follow your initial post and posts 190, 193, and 198, you’re steel trap of a mind is asking us to connect the following “logical” dots and agree with you that the Wrights didn’t fly until 1908:
(1) The Wright’s 1903 flight did not happen, because
(2) The Wright’s 1905 flight did not happen, because
(3) Scientific American’s 1906 article reported on responses from 11 witnesses that said the aeroplane was “pushed for a short distance by hand” [190] and that can’t possibly be true because the 1905 flight “was pulled by a falling heavy weight.” [193] which means the aeroplane would have been moving much too fast for anybody to push the aeroplane, and thus those witnesses lied, because
(4) The videos of the Wright’s 1908-1909 flights show the aeroplane being launched with a falling heavy weight that falls “in about two seconds” making it “ridiculous” to imagine somebody trying to run “even 0.5 sec along the side” [198].
Holy crap. Did I miss anything?
Your logic is totally crazy. More importantly, it’s demonstrably wrong given that it all hinges on your ultimate assertion that the YouTube video of the 1908-1909 flights somehow proves that men can’t run along side, when in fact if you look just a little bit closer, the video repeatedly shows just that. And, if there were also men running along the side of the aeroplane to stabilize the wing as it is accelerated forward by the falling weight in 1905, I suggest to you that it would have been reasonable for the 11 lay witnesses to have described their activity as “pushing.”
Oddly, you do not even acknowledge longer ron’s pithy reply in [199] where he notes that “Towards the end of that [1908-09] YouTube clip - you can clearly see a guy [running along the side] and stabilizing the wing tip whilst running with it for a few yards” (5:24-5:28 or so). As shown by the red arrow above, there’s also a guy running along side and stabilizing the wing tip in the 1908 flight in France too, around 1:16.
Here, have a watch. Go to 1:15 and then play.
(1) The Wright’s 1903 flight did not happen, because
(2) The Wright’s 1905 flight did not happen, because
(3) Scientific American’s 1906 article reported on responses from 11 witnesses that said the aeroplane was “pushed for a short distance by hand” [190] and that can’t possibly be true because the 1905 flight “was pulled by a falling heavy weight.” [193] which means the aeroplane would have been moving much too fast for anybody to push the aeroplane, and thus those witnesses lied, because
(4) The videos of the Wright’s 1908-1909 flights show the aeroplane being launched with a falling heavy weight that falls “in about two seconds” making it “ridiculous” to imagine somebody trying to run “even 0.5 sec along the side” [198].
Holy crap. Did I miss anything?Your logic is totally crazy. More importantly, it’s demonstrably wrong given that it all hinges on your ultimate assertion that the YouTube video of the 1908-1909 flights somehow proves that men can’t run along side, when in fact if you look just a little bit closer, the video repeatedly shows just that. And, if there were also men running along the side of the aeroplane to stabilize the wing as it is accelerated forward by the falling weight in 1905, I suggest to you that it would have been reasonable for the 11 lay witnesses to have described their activity as “pushing.”
Oddly, you do not even acknowledge longer ron’s pithy reply in [199] where he notes that “Towards the end of that [1908-09] YouTube clip - you can clearly see a guy [running along the side] and stabilizing the wing tip whilst running with it for a few yards” (5:24-5:28 or so). As shown by the red arrow above, there’s also a guy running along side and stabilizing the wing tip in the 1908 flight in France too, around 1:16.
Here, have a watch. Go to 1:15 and then play.
Simplex has never answered any questions LOL
He just goes on to his next illogical conclusion or reiterates an older illogical conclusion !
So come on Simplex - what is your nationality ?
And what precisely is your personal angle on this matter ? for you it seems to be an obsession !
I am british - so it makes no difference to me who is regarded as the first to make a powered/controlled flight !
He just goes on to his next illogical conclusion or reiterates an older illogical conclusion !
So come on Simplex - what is your nationality ?
And what precisely is your personal angle on this matter ? for you it seems to be an obsession !
I am british - so it makes no difference to me who is regarded as the first to make a powered/controlled flight !
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Alaska
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am british - so it makes no difference to me who is regarded as the first to make a powered/controlled flight !
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Alaska
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
you do not even acknowledge longer ron’s pithy reply in [199] where he notes that “Towards the end of that [1908-09] YouTube clip - you can clearly see a guy [running along the side] and stabilizing the wing tip whilst running with it for a few yards”
Yes, there is somebody running for max. 1 sec along the side of the right wing but he does not create the impression of pushing the plane. The theory that so many witnesses (who saw the plane in different days) had been misled by a guy running in the same direction with the plane and all reached the conclusion that the man had pushed the plane, running as fast as he could, is simply not credible. When somebody pushes a heavy object, he moves slowly and you can see the person struggling to make that thing (ex. a car) go forward.
Regarding the catapult, it was an "optional feature?"
But by September, they didn't need a slope, a hill, strong winds or a catapult, right?
One hour two minutes and fifteen seconds - 9 September 1908 at Fort Myer Virginia...
Take off performance was still a bit of a sticking point though. In 1904 the Wrights started using a crude catapult picture of replica. It was an optional feature, as Wilbur Wright showed during a 1908 demonstration. During an attempt to set an FAI time to altitude record, the officials disqualified him on account of his "assisted takeoff". Wilbur promptly redid the attempt without the catapult and promptly set a new record.
How can I believe the two inventors were able to fly more than 30 minutes in Oct. 1905 over a flat pasture near Dayton if they still needed a hill and strong winds to stay in the air as late as May 1908.
One hour two minutes and fifteen seconds - 9 September 1908 at Fort Myer Virginia...
Last edited by Noyade; 6th Jun 2014 at 11:31.
Cunning Artificer
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The spiritual home of DeHavilland
Age: 76
Posts: 3,127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If having someone run alongside holding a wing to stabilise the aircraft and having a catapult haul the aircraft up to flying speed means that it can't be decribed as a truly controlled flight . . .
. . . then there's an awful lot of glider pilots on this bulletin board who can't fly.
. . . then there's an awful lot of glider pilots on this bulletin board who can't fly.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Alaska
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Take off performance was still a bit of a sticking point though. In 1904 the Wrights started using a crude catapult ... . It was an optional feature, as Wilbur Wright showed during a 1908 demonstration. During an attempt to set an FAI time to altitude record, the officials disqualified him on account of his "assisted takeoff". Wilbur promptly redid the attempt without the catapult and promptly set a new record."
"Description
This is probably Wilbur Wright's altitude record setting flight of December 18, 1908. During this flight Wilbur broke his own endurance record and also set a world altitude record of 115 meters. The flight took place at Camp d'Auvours near Le Mans, France. The flight won the Aero Club de la Sarthe prize for altitude. Also visible is the launching derrick and two marker balloons measuring altitude of 100 meters."
Source: http://timestraveler.blogs.nytimes.c...ype=blogs&_r=0
I have also found an article (see below) about an altitude record set by W. Wright in Dec. 1908 but the fact he took off without the help of a catapult is not mentioned.
Saturday, Dec. 19, 1908
Flying yesterday in Le Mans, France, Wilbur Wright set new aeroplane records for time and altitude, as he flew for 1 hour 53 minutes and 59 seconds in the morning and, in a later flight, reached an altitude of 360 feet. The previous records, both his, were 1 hour 31 minutes and 51 seconds, and 240 feet. “Mr. Wright attained an average height of 24 feet this morning, and the distance was officially measured as 61½ miles, which does not include the wide sweeps and turns made during the flight. He descended only because the oil feeder got out of order. … Mr. Wright made his record for height and won the Sarthe Club’s prize in the afternoon when the atmospheric conditions were less favorable. At first it was thought that the violence of the breeze would compel him to postpone his effort, but, undaunted, he launched his machine and circled around and around the field. When soaring at ninety feet a sudden gust of wind caught the aeroplane sideways, causing it to plunge violently backward. The spectators were terrified, but Mr. Wright remained unperturbed and soon righted the craft. At the end of ten minutes the wind had moderated and the aeroplane soared upward and passed high over a line of captive balloons, marking a distance of 300 feet.”
Source: http://timestraveler.blogs.nytimes.c...ype=blogs&_r=0
Join Date: May 2014
Location: SoCal
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Are you eetrojan the same as longer ron? Your styles are identical.
One thing longer ron and I have in common, however, is that we both speak English as our native language. You, on the other hand, incorrectly interpreted "My respect ... went up..." to be an idiom that means loss of respect [003].
If English is a second language for you, it would explain quite a few of your misunderstandings.
What nationality are you? Is English your native tongue?
Yes, there is somebody running for max. 1 sec along the side of the right wing but he does not create the impression of pushing the plane. The theory that so many witnesses (who saw the plane in different days) had been misled by a guy running in the same direction with the plane and all reached the conclusion that the man had pushed the plane, running as fast as he could, is simply not credible. When somebody pushes a heavy object, he moves slowly and you can see the person struggling to make that thing (ex. a car) go forward.
So. You now acknowledge "there is somebody running for max. 1 sec along the side" (thank you for that concession), but oddly you still insist that it's "not credible" to conclude that all the witnesses were "misled" into believing the plane was being "pushed" based on a man running along side the plane while holding the wing. Thus it seems, you continue to cling to your wildly extrapolated thesis that those eleven witnesses "lied" and, therefore, everything about the Wright's pre-1908 flights is false.
Amazing insight you have, especially since your knowledge of what "all the witnesses" said is based on very thin hearsay evidence, namely Scientific American's hearsay summary that "From the replies received, it would seem that the aeroplane rested on a single rail 40 feet long, was pushed for a short distance by hand, ..." (emphasis added).
In my opinion, lay witnesses could plausibly describe a man who visibly runs with the aeroplane's wingtip, even if only for a second, as "pushing" the aeroplane.
I trust that you won't continue to dismiss all eleven witnesses as liars based on your misunderstanding of the scope of the English word "pushed."
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Alaska
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Scientific American, in its Jan. 25, 1908 edition, credits the Wright Brothers, A. M. Herring and Gustave Whitehead as producing the first successful heavier-than-air flying machines despite the fact that only claims made by the three inventors existed that time and no credible witness, beyond any doubt. Articles like this, written in apparently serious publications, spread the myths of Herring, Whitehead and the Wright brothers as the first aviators.
"In view of the above-mentioned facts, while giving to M. Farman the credit for first publicly demonstrating that it is possible to fly in all directions, both with, against, and across a light wind, we nevertheless wish to recall to the aeronautical world the fact that to America belongs the credit of producing the first successful motor-driven aeroplane, and that to such men as the Wright brothers, A. M. Herring, and Gustave Whitehead — men who under the tutelage of Lilienthal and Chanute, have begun with gliding flight and gradually worked their way forward to the production of a self propelled aeroplane in all its details, including the gasoline motor — belongs the real credit of having produced the first successful heavier-than-air flying machines."
Source: "The Farman Aeroplane Wins the Deutsch-Archdeacon Prize.", Scientific American, pag. 54, Jan. 25, 1908, https://archive.org/stream/scientifi...ge/n0/mode/1up
"In view of the above-mentioned facts, while giving to M. Farman the credit for first publicly demonstrating that it is possible to fly in all directions, both with, against, and across a light wind, we nevertheless wish to recall to the aeronautical world the fact that to America belongs the credit of producing the first successful motor-driven aeroplane, and that to such men as the Wright brothers, A. M. Herring, and Gustave Whitehead — men who under the tutelage of Lilienthal and Chanute, have begun with gliding flight and gradually worked their way forward to the production of a self propelled aeroplane in all its details, including the gasoline motor — belongs the real credit of having produced the first successful heavier-than-air flying machines."
Source: "The Farman Aeroplane Wins the Deutsch-Archdeacon Prize.", Scientific American, pag. 54, Jan. 25, 1908, https://archive.org/stream/scientifi...ge/n0/mode/1up