1979 Western Airlines 2605 information?
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Side step
Poor wording on my part. Thanks for your post. What I meant was that I don't believe the crew ever intended to make a side step during this approach and landing. I don't know for sure but I don't think it was ever briefed as such.
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Now I have read the scans you posted, IGh.
Spooky, if you read Pg106_high_Lts.png scanned from the Circular and provided by IGh, on 1.10.1 it states that the approach was made with ILS from 23L with a "change-over" to 23R (this is also referred to as "transition" on 112.png). This must have been briefed as other aircraft used the same approach into the airport (see 115and6.png)
There is no mention of any CRM issues at all. No mention of any animosity on the flight deck. And, as IGh says, one gets the impression that it is the Capt who is PF. The short CVR snippet on that TV show also gives that impression. Thus, it would be extremely interesting to find the ALPA submission on this. I have tried Google but to no avail. Their archive goes back only to 2001 (at least for non-members) it seems.
Some things got clearer from this report. The runway lights on 23R were working. Lights on 23L were not. It was sunset but not dark. To land on 23R one had to make a "change-over" or "transition" from the ILS in 23L. The crew were on the right track when about 1000 feet above the runway but drifted left and descended into fog - not clear in which order that happened though. They did ignore minima and no call-outs were made. The aircraft landed with one pair of landing gears on 23L and one pair on the grass beside it. They might have seen a truck before executing the go-around but they struck the truck and ripped off the landing gear, then wobbled away and hit another vehicle and consequently never regained control as they scraped the ground into a building.
Very interesting chain of events. I would like to see a CVR transcript. Oh geez, I'm so nerdy. Sorry about that folks. You have been an immense help to me and I really appreciate that!
Spooky, if you read Pg106_high_Lts.png scanned from the Circular and provided by IGh, on 1.10.1 it states that the approach was made with ILS from 23L with a "change-over" to 23R (this is also referred to as "transition" on 112.png). This must have been briefed as other aircraft used the same approach into the airport (see 115and6.png)
There is no mention of any CRM issues at all. No mention of any animosity on the flight deck. And, as IGh says, one gets the impression that it is the Capt who is PF. The short CVR snippet on that TV show also gives that impression. Thus, it would be extremely interesting to find the ALPA submission on this. I have tried Google but to no avail. Their archive goes back only to 2001 (at least for non-members) it seems.
Some things got clearer from this report. The runway lights on 23R were working. Lights on 23L were not. It was sunset but not dark. To land on 23R one had to make a "change-over" or "transition" from the ILS in 23L. The crew were on the right track when about 1000 feet above the runway but drifted left and descended into fog - not clear in which order that happened though. They did ignore minima and no call-outs were made. The aircraft landed with one pair of landing gears on 23L and one pair on the grass beside it. They might have seen a truck before executing the go-around but they struck the truck and ripped off the landing gear, then wobbled away and hit another vehicle and consequently never regained control as they scraped the ground into a building.
Very interesting chain of events. I would like to see a CVR transcript. Oh geez, I'm so nerdy. Sorry about that folks. You have been an immense help to me and I really appreciate that!
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You really don't want to hear the CVR and I'm sure that it's not available to anyone in the public domain. From the time they hit the truck until they impacted the building they knew they were gonners and the CVR clearly shows that. Damn near hit a BA 747 that was load pax at the terminal. All accidents like this one are horrific and this one ranks right up there with the worst.
Should be home this weekend and I'll look for the ALPA report,
Should be home this weekend and I'll look for the ALPA report,
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ALPA report
Searched high and low and cannot find the report. Last resort I sent an email to a former WAL pilot that was an investigator on the accident. If I get a positive response I'll let you know.
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Spooky you are most helpful and I am very thankful for your efforts. Please feel assured that I in no way, shape or form expect you to do anything for me, a mere stranger on the Internet. You have been extremely kind as is!
I do feel like I need to clarify myself: I do not long for any CVR recording, only the transcript would be nice. I heard enough CVR excerpts from that short TV clip on Youtube linked to earlier in this thread.
Please do not interpret my words as anything other than a humble wish upon a star from my side. I shall do my best to try and locate anything by myself (sometimes with a helpful pointer from more educated people) as I, again, do not expect anyone to do it for me.
As mentioned, yes, this is a horrifying story - more so, I believe, because very few seems to know anything about this. The information you people so generously provided has shown that there may be several lessons to be learned years ahead of its time. Crew fatigue seems to have played a part in this play. What if there had been empahized actions against crew fatigue already in 1979 - then there may have been a whole lot of happy campers flying on Colgan in 2009... and who knows how many other accidents avoided since.
I do feel like I need to clarify myself: I do not long for any CVR recording, only the transcript would be nice. I heard enough CVR excerpts from that short TV clip on Youtube linked to earlier in this thread.
Please do not interpret my words as anything other than a humble wish upon a star from my side. I shall do my best to try and locate anything by myself (sometimes with a helpful pointer from more educated people) as I, again, do not expect anyone to do it for me.
As mentioned, yes, this is a horrifying story - more so, I believe, because very few seems to know anything about this. The information you people so generously provided has shown that there may be several lessons to be learned years ahead of its time. Crew fatigue seems to have played a part in this play. What if there had been empahized actions against crew fatigue already in 1979 - then there may have been a whole lot of happy campers flying on Colgan in 2009... and who knows how many other accidents avoided since.
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Hi there.
Recently i found a series of pics of this accident taken from a helicopter.
At that time my dad worked for the insurance company in charge of all the mexican government assets. The photos show an aerial perspective of the wreckage and how parts of the wings landend on top of some houses near Mexico City's airport.
Since i found the photos i started reading about the accident online.I want to share the pics but sadly the sharing button in here is blocked.
I would appreciate a lot if someone tells me how i can configure this for sharing.
Regards.
Recently i found a series of pics of this accident taken from a helicopter.
At that time my dad worked for the insurance company in charge of all the mexican government assets. The photos show an aerial perspective of the wreckage and how parts of the wings landend on top of some houses near Mexico City's airport.
Since i found the photos i started reading about the accident online.I want to share the pics but sadly the sharing button in here is blocked.
I would appreciate a lot if someone tells me how i can configure this for sharing.
Regards.
Since i found the photos i started reading about the accident online.I want to share the pics but sadly the sharing button in here is blocked.
I would appreciate a lot if someone tells me how i can configure this for sharing.
I would appreciate a lot if someone tells me how i can configure this for sharing.
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First off all and this is very important, the airplane did not just land on the wrong runway, it didn't land on the runway but rather the main was off the side of the runway in the dirt. So it's unlikely Ernie was simply watching the Capt land on the wrong runway as stated.
This flight was many hours late departing LAX. They called out a reserve crew because the original crew was going to be out of duty time. I forget just late it was or how much noticed the reserve had. As I recall the F/O commuted down from his home in Seattle so that must have added to the stress at the start of the flight. The Capt had been up since early that morning departure and if I'm not mistaken had spent some time flying a P51 that he has access to. All in not a good start for a crew that should have been taking it easy.
Captain Gilbert was an enlisted Marine during WWll in the Pacific. He may have been a little rough around the edges but certainly not a Captain who ran rough shod over his fellow crew members. Interestingly he took a leave of absence from Western while he was flying Captain on the DC6B to work for Japan Airlines. I think he just wanted get to know what the Japanese were like when they weren't shooting at each other.
This flight was many hours late departing LAX. They called out a reserve crew because the original crew was going to be out of duty time. I forget just late it was or how much noticed the reserve had. As I recall the F/O commuted down from his home in Seattle so that must have added to the stress at the start of the flight. The Capt had been up since early that morning departure and if I'm not mistaken had spent some time flying a P51 that he has access to. All in not a good start for a crew that should have been taking it easy.
Captain Gilbert was an enlisted Marine during WWll in the Pacific. He may have been a little rough around the edges but certainly not a Captain who ran rough shod over his fellow crew members. Interestingly he took a leave of absence from Western while he was flying Captain on the DC6B to work for Japan Airlines. I think he just wanted get to know what the Japanese were like when they weren't shooting at each other.
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Medinmay
While researching this accident I discovered many different stories about Capt G. Some says he and his accident FO were not on good terms, other discounts this claim. Hard to know what is fact and what is rumour.
While researching this accident I discovered many different stories about Capt G. Some says he and his accident FO were not on good terms, other discounts this claim. Hard to know what is fact and what is rumour.
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I've read this forum before and thought of posting. My dad was the S/O. On the night of the crash when my mom dropped him off at the bus he said he had a bad feeling about that night. I've heard that captain was on the F/O about not being professional. f/o was going through a divorce. I've heard they used the CVR for training to remind people to get along in the cockpit.
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I have never heard any reference to this CVR being used in any sort of CRM training, and certainly not at Western or DAL.
The fact that there is no NTSB report on this accident is troubling to say the least.
The fact that there is no NTSB report on this accident is troubling to say the least.
It's not the NTSB's place to issue reports on accidents where a foreign AIB has carried out the investigation.
Incidentally the NTSB URLs have changed, the 1980 Safety Recommendations letter is now located at http://www.ntsb.gov/safety/safety-re.../A80_59_60.pdf
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Okay Dave I understand, but a US air carrier, operating an N registered aircraft, with US citizens would normally generate such a report? The only official report I have ever seen on this accident was the one that ALPA produced, and I have since lost that document. What report are you referring to that was compiled in lieu of an NTSB report?
Thanks for you contributions on this website
Thanks for you contributions on this website
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Hello Gents,
I realize this is now years ago but I was hoping to bring this thread back to life.
As other in here I am also intrigued by the utter lack of info on this accident.
After reading up on it a bit lately, I have also come across the book written by Eduardo Valenciana, one of the surviving cabin crew members - this is a mighty interesting read to say the least. His story makes clear how the Mexican authorities back then pretty much hijacked the investigation and kept the NTSB guys from getting anywhere near the wreckage - while locals were literally looting luggage.
I would be very interested to read the ALPA report on it, has anyone managed to get their hands on that?
Many thanks in advance and apologies again for digging up an old thread.
Bob
I realize this is now years ago but I was hoping to bring this thread back to life.
As other in here I am also intrigued by the utter lack of info on this accident.
After reading up on it a bit lately, I have also come across the book written by Eduardo Valenciana, one of the surviving cabin crew members - this is a mighty interesting read to say the least. His story makes clear how the Mexican authorities back then pretty much hijacked the investigation and kept the NTSB guys from getting anywhere near the wreckage - while locals were literally looting luggage.
I would be very interested to read the ALPA report on it, has anyone managed to get their hands on that?
Many thanks in advance and apologies again for digging up an old thread.
Bob
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You might find Eduardo on Facebook. I don't use FB, but I know a lot of the flight Attendants touch base there from time to time. Have you contacted ALPA directly with a request for this information?
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Hi Spooky,
I am not on FB either.. I’ve sent him an email on his website where he states he has a link to the ABC 20/20 documentary from back when, but no joy.
Never tried ALPA directly, is that worth a try?
I am not on FB either.. I’ve sent him an email on his website where he states he has a link to the ABC 20/20 documentary from back when, but no joy.
Never tried ALPA directly, is that worth a try?
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Well you know they created report, so I'm just suggesting it would be worth a try. If you don't ask, you will never know. I heard the CVR recording on line a couple of years ago and was very surprised that it existed for general disemination. What is the point of your interest other perhaps a morbid curiosity?
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Well you know they created report, so I'm just suggesting it would be worth a try. If you don't ask, you will never know. I heard the CVR recording on line a couple of years ago and was very surprised that it existed for general disemination. What is the point of your interest other perhaps a morbid curiosity?
I am just curious to read some details on it, always find the investigations interesting and there isn’t anything on this one.