1979 Western Airlines 2605 information?
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1979 Western Airlines 2605 information?
Due to professional circumstances I happened to develop a private interest in aviation investigations. While searching for the Western Airlines 2605, Mexico City, 1979 accident I discovered that there is nothing at all on the web. It is like this crash never happened.
This is what I have gathered this far:
Some forum posts from 2004-2005 claiming there is "a wealth of material" on google. A few mentions of an actual report has been made and a few attempts to explain the crash - although that seems to be all hearsay or maybe not factual at least. Speculation about the relationship between the Capt and FO f.ex.
There is a small Wikipedia article about it, but no actual sources is referenced - no accident investigation f.ex.
A very brief mention on an NTSB Safety Recommendation makes me believe this accident actually occured.
I stumbled upon a site called tedbros with a few photos and a reference to someone called Eddy Valencia.
During my searches I have found no transcripts, no TV programmes (except for a one minute excerpt on YouTube), no Eddy Valencia, no CVR recordings, no accident report from SENTAM (Mexican aviation bureau at that time?), zilch, zero, nothing. All links from the old forum posts are gone, missing, wrong, uninformational, substituted or just plain dead.
I am astonished that all this information seems to have been available some years ago but now it is all gone. If anybody here might know a tidbit I would be glad to hear about it. If it is sensitive in any way, please let me know about it without bashing. I wasn't even out of my diapers when this particular accident happened.
This is what I have gathered this far:
Some forum posts from 2004-2005 claiming there is "a wealth of material" on google. A few mentions of an actual report has been made and a few attempts to explain the crash - although that seems to be all hearsay or maybe not factual at least. Speculation about the relationship between the Capt and FO f.ex.
There is a small Wikipedia article about it, but no actual sources is referenced - no accident investigation f.ex.
A very brief mention on an NTSB Safety Recommendation makes me believe this accident actually occured.
I stumbled upon a site called tedbros with a few photos and a reference to someone called Eddy Valencia.
During my searches I have found no transcripts, no TV programmes (except for a one minute excerpt on YouTube), no Eddy Valencia, no CVR recordings, no accident report from SENTAM (Mexican aviation bureau at that time?), zilch, zero, nothing. All links from the old forum posts are gone, missing, wrong, uninformational, substituted or just plain dead.
I am astonished that all this information seems to have been available some years ago but now it is all gone. If anybody here might know a tidbit I would be glad to hear about it. If it is sensitive in any way, please let me know about it without bashing. I wasn't even out of my diapers when this particular accident happened.
While searching for the Western Airlines 2605, Mexico City, 1979 accident I discovered that there is nothing at all on the web. It is like this crash never happened.
The investigation was, of course, under the jurisdiction of the Mexican authorities and I've never seen a published report. Having said that, I have a copy of the NTSB's database for that period, but that doesn't really throw much more light on the circumstances.
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Thank you very much DaveReid!
That seems to be the NTSB information I realized existed on this topic. I have downloaded it from your link. But this seems to be the only factual information about the crash available on the Web. The photos I saved are very unconfirmed and might very well be totally unrelated.
It is interesting that this crash seems to have vanished from the records, while older accidents are readily available. I would believe that the DC-10 would be the center of interest due to its accident history, cargo doors and the Air NZ event a bit later.
The Wikipedia article cites ICAO as a reference, but I have been unsuccessful in finding the source document (Circular 173-AN/109).
While this crash, according to the rumours, have more to do with CRM than materials and/or design of the airplane I still find it interesting to study, and if someone else wants to help me I would be most grateful.
That seems to be the NTSB information I realized existed on this topic. I have downloaded it from your link. But this seems to be the only factual information about the crash available on the Web. The photos I saved are very unconfirmed and might very well be totally unrelated.
It is interesting that this crash seems to have vanished from the records, while older accidents are readily available. I would believe that the DC-10 would be the center of interest due to its accident history, cargo doors and the Air NZ event a bit later.
The Wikipedia article cites ICAO as a reference, but I have been unsuccessful in finding the source document (Circular 173-AN/109).
While this crash, according to the rumours, have more to do with CRM than materials and/or design of the airplane I still find it interesting to study, and if someone else wants to help me I would be most grateful.
Accident Database: Accident Synopsis 10311979
You would presumably have seen the Air Disaster report and attached photo.
You would presumably have seen the Air Disaster report and attached photo.
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Thankyou Newforest.
While I had not come across that site before, it still lacks real sources and is very very limited information. No reference to the accident report. The link to the photos suggest there should be four photos, but there is only one that actually exists - the other ones are 404's.
Crew error can be lots of things and the rumours are so strange that I would like to confirm what is true and what is not.
While I had not come across that site before, it still lacks real sources and is very very limited information. No reference to the accident report. The link to the photos suggest there should be four photos, but there is only one that actually exists - the other ones are 404's.
Crew error can be lots of things and the rumours are so strange that I would like to confirm what is true and what is not.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
The accident certainly happened. IIRC the landing runway didn't have lights, and the lights for the closed runway were on. Not exactly helpful.
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Western 2605
The most comprehensive description and analysis by far is in the December 1983 issue of Flying magazine pages 100 to 107.
http://books.google.com/books?id=8BV...page&q&f=false
Cheers!
http://books.google.com/books?id=8BV...page&q&f=false
Cheers!
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Thankyou very much Bob2!
That article was extremely helpful.
Now I wish to locate the ALPA report referred to in the article, and of course the official accident report.
I am not familiar with Google Books. Is there any way I can download this excellent article from there? I have not found any "download" button.
That article was extremely helpful.
Now I wish to locate the ALPA report referred to in the article, and of course the official accident report.
I am not familiar with Google Books. Is there any way I can download this excellent article from there? I have not found any "download" button.
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I think I know a little bit about this accident and the post above is pure conjecture along with a healthy dose of BS. Also, just for the record, Ernie Reichel, was the F/O, not the S/O on this flight.
Having flown Charlie Gilbert on at least 25 occasions on the DC6B, L188 and 707 I knew him best. Had flown with the two crew members several times each over a period of five years prior. This was a fatigue induced accident if there ever was one compounded by a number of irregular circumstances leading up to the departure. Reichel was going through a divorce so it's had to say where in mind was that night. No comments regarding the S/O.
One of the names mentioned early in this thread I believe was that of a Flight Attendant that survived the accident. If his stories regarding the Mexican authorities were to be beloved the US goverment should have banned any further bilateral aviation agreements between the two countries. Just say'n!
Having flown Charlie Gilbert on at least 25 occasions on the DC6B, L188 and 707 I knew him best. Had flown with the two crew members several times each over a period of five years prior. This was a fatigue induced accident if there ever was one compounded by a number of irregular circumstances leading up to the departure. Reichel was going through a divorce so it's had to say where in mind was that night. No comments regarding the S/O.
One of the names mentioned early in this thread I believe was that of a Flight Attendant that survived the accident. If his stories regarding the Mexican authorities were to be beloved the US goverment should have banned any further bilateral aviation agreements between the two countries. Just say'n!
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IGh
You are most helpful, I really appreciate that! Thankyou. Now I know where to look for further information, though maybe a bit gossip-y... ;-D
I will check with the library if they have access to any of the publications you mention.
That YouTube video was one of two things (the other was the NTSB paper) that confirmed to me that this crash actually had taken place. It is really scary, hearing those last 2-3 seconds.
Since it was a Mexican investigation, maybe they weren't so particular regarding publication of CVR sounds. This also implies that the report must be very hard to access, if it still exists even. Or am I just being a common turd for assuming that?
I wish I could get a copy of that TV program you mention, IGh. My web research concluded that there is such a program, but all links to it has gone all 404 on me.
And, yes, IGh, I know it is kind of lame to use the web as only source of information... but as this is a private interest (my professional life is more about materials, design, hardware, such things) I prefer to check out things on the web first. Usually that is sufficient, but in this case it proved to be a very disappointing source. Especially as I had no leads at all about where to look. That's why I asked here, and thanks to all you kind people I hope I find more information as to what really happened.
CRM is an intriguing and interesting field. Especially with so much gossip about this crash, some examples of gossip provided here for clarification:
"Capt didn't like FO so FO wanted to embarrass Capt because FO knew that they were landing on the wrong runway but didn't want to tell Capt so Capt would end up on the wrong runway and a spiteful FO could say "see everyone makes mistakes!"."
"No signs of disrespect between Capt and FO. FO tells Capt several times they are on the wrong track but Capt does nothing."
"Capt knew they were on the wrong track but for some reason couldn't change course."
"There was fog."
"There was no fog but it was too dark to see anything."
"It was not too dark but lights for 23L were lit while 23R was unlit."
"There were no lights and ATC is to blame."
"ATC did everything by the book."
"Western used to land at 23L even though it was closed."
"Capt was worried about landing because it was tricky."
"Capt had landed there hundreds of times - no biggie for him!"
And so on....
You are most helpful, I really appreciate that! Thankyou. Now I know where to look for further information, though maybe a bit gossip-y... ;-D
I will check with the library if they have access to any of the publications you mention.
That YouTube video was one of two things (the other was the NTSB paper) that confirmed to me that this crash actually had taken place. It is really scary, hearing those last 2-3 seconds.
Since it was a Mexican investigation, maybe they weren't so particular regarding publication of CVR sounds. This also implies that the report must be very hard to access, if it still exists even. Or am I just being a common turd for assuming that?
I wish I could get a copy of that TV program you mention, IGh. My web research concluded that there is such a program, but all links to it has gone all 404 on me.
And, yes, IGh, I know it is kind of lame to use the web as only source of information... but as this is a private interest (my professional life is more about materials, design, hardware, such things) I prefer to check out things on the web first. Usually that is sufficient, but in this case it proved to be a very disappointing source. Especially as I had no leads at all about where to look. That's why I asked here, and thanks to all you kind people I hope I find more information as to what really happened.
CRM is an intriguing and interesting field. Especially with so much gossip about this crash, some examples of gossip provided here for clarification:
"Capt didn't like FO so FO wanted to embarrass Capt because FO knew that they were landing on the wrong runway but didn't want to tell Capt so Capt would end up on the wrong runway and a spiteful FO could say "see everyone makes mistakes!"."
"No signs of disrespect between Capt and FO. FO tells Capt several times they are on the wrong track but Capt does nothing."
"Capt knew they were on the wrong track but for some reason couldn't change course."
"There was fog."
"There was no fog but it was too dark to see anything."
"It was not too dark but lights for 23L were lit while 23R was unlit."
"There were no lights and ATC is to blame."
"ATC did everything by the book."
"Western used to land at 23L even though it was closed."
"Capt was worried about landing because it was tricky."
"Capt had landed there hundreds of times - no biggie for him!"
And so on....
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Spooky.
Yes, I read about fatigue somewhere, that is correct! But it is so hard to know what is fact and what is fiction in this crash. I am inclined to believe that might be due to lack of reliable sources.
May I PM you for further information from a first hand source?
Yes, I read about fatigue somewhere, that is correct! But it is so hard to know what is fact and what is fiction in this crash. I am inclined to believe that might be due to lack of reliable sources.
May I PM you for further information from a first hand source?
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Fist off all and this is very important, the airplane did not just land on the wrong runway, it didn't land on the runway but rather the main was off the side of the runway in the dirt. So it's unlikely Ernie was simply watching the Capt land on the wrong runway as stated.
This flight was many hours late departing LAX. They called out a reserve crew because the original crew was going to be out of duty time. I forget just late it was or how much noticed the reserve had. As I recall the F/O commuted down from his home in Seattle so that must have added to the stress at the start of the flight. The Capt had been up since early that morning departure and if I'm not mistaken had spent some time flying a P51 that he has access to. All in not a good start for a crew that should have been taking it easy.
Captain Gilbert was an enlisted Marine during WWll in the Pacific. He may have been a little rough around the edges but certainly not a Captain who ran rough shod over his fellow crew members. Interestingly he took a leave of absence from Western while he was flying Captain on the DC6B to work for Japan Airlines. I think he just wanted get to know what the Japanese were like when they weren't shooting at each other.
This flight was many hours late departing LAX. They called out a reserve crew because the original crew was going to be out of duty time. I forget just late it was or how much noticed the reserve had. As I recall the F/O commuted down from his home in Seattle so that must have added to the stress at the start of the flight. The Capt had been up since early that morning departure and if I'm not mistaken had spent some time flying a P51 that he has access to. All in not a good start for a crew that should have been taking it easy.
Captain Gilbert was an enlisted Marine during WWll in the Pacific. He may have been a little rough around the edges but certainly not a Captain who ran rough shod over his fellow crew members. Interestingly he took a leave of absence from Western while he was flying Captain on the DC6B to work for Japan Airlines. I think he just wanted get to know what the Japanese were like when they weren't shooting at each other.
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Spooky.
Thankyou so much for that information. I haven't read anywhere else that they landed off the runway.
Do you have any written sources to this piece of information? Or can you point me in the proper direction to find any source for my self?
I still wonder if I may PM you.
_______________________
IGh, I all of a sudden realized that I have used some of your information regarding the TWA841 incident! Thankyou for providing me with that, albeit unknowingly. TWA841 is interesting in several aspects:
1) It was a material/design failure.
2) It involved no loss of life.
3) And yet there were plenty of materials, reports, photos, TV-programs etc to document the event.
Western 2605 involved loss of many people's lives, it was propably due to CRM failure (although that can't be confirmed at this point) and still there is nothing available on the Web.
These two accidents occured the same year. Strange.
Thankyou so much for that information. I haven't read anywhere else that they landed off the runway.
Do you have any written sources to this piece of information? Or can you point me in the proper direction to find any source for my self?
I still wonder if I may PM you.
_______________________
IGh, I all of a sudden realized that I have used some of your information regarding the TWA841 incident! Thankyou for providing me with that, albeit unknowingly. TWA841 is interesting in several aspects:
1) It was a material/design failure.
2) It involved no loss of life.
3) And yet there were plenty of materials, reports, photos, TV-programs etc to document the event.
Western 2605 involved loss of many people's lives, it was propably due to CRM failure (although that can't be confirmed at this point) and still there is nothing available on the Web.
These two accidents occured the same year. Strange.
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No PMs at this time as I'm pretty busy for the next week or so. I believe I may have the ALPA report on this accident and if so I would be happy to share it. It's not in my current location so I'll have to look for it when I get back home next week.
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Thanks for that post IGh.
Just a point that should be noted. WAL's SOP's called for the S/O to verbalize the altitude callouts by observing the radio altimeter display on the Captains panel during the landing. I'm pretty sure this was an industry SOP prior to the audio feature that was added later.
Just a point that should be noted. WAL's SOP's called for the S/O to verbalize the altitude callouts by observing the radio altimeter display on the Captains panel during the landing. I'm pretty sure this was an industry SOP prior to the audio feature that was added later.
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IGh, that was immensely helpful.
Thankyou SO much for those scans!
If you ever come to ARN, Sweden, I'll be happy to buy you a beer or two for your efforts.
Thankyou SO much for those scans!
If you ever come to ARN, Sweden, I'll be happy to buy you a beer or two for your efforts.
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IGh
I haven't had time to read the whole Circular, but I downloaded all scans, and hope to get some free time tomorrow. I browsed the pages briefly and didn't see any emphasis on crew work time, but that might very well be because of my short glance at the documents.
It is nice to have some real information at last, not relying on gossip, rumours and fairy tales.
Although... it is not unheard of that accident investigations, or results thereof, has been manipulated - knowingly or unknowingly - to suit someone's needs. This was, I believe, more prevalent during the 1970's than during other times. The major things that I come to think of are the infamous DC-10 cargo doors. TWA841 is another incident that my gut feeling says has not been thoroughly investigated.
Sadly the cargo door story should repeat itself. United811. I can't believe that those in charge didn't listen to the engineers and learn the lessons from the DC-10. It is totally incomprehensible.
Ouch. Sorry about thread drift now. Back on topic.
Yes, that ILS thing is peculiar. Rumours has it that they had nothing at all for the open runway so all pilots were told to sidestep from the glideslope at a certain point so they would land on the open runway. I can understand such a procedure when done in nice weather with lots of visibility, but to use that as a standard procedure for instrument flights, during nights or in low visibility is indeed... unusual.
Thankyou IGh for your efforts.
I haven't had time to read the whole Circular, but I downloaded all scans, and hope to get some free time tomorrow. I browsed the pages briefly and didn't see any emphasis on crew work time, but that might very well be because of my short glance at the documents.
It is nice to have some real information at last, not relying on gossip, rumours and fairy tales.
Although... it is not unheard of that accident investigations, or results thereof, has been manipulated - knowingly or unknowingly - to suit someone's needs. This was, I believe, more prevalent during the 1970's than during other times. The major things that I come to think of are the infamous DC-10 cargo doors. TWA841 is another incident that my gut feeling says has not been thoroughly investigated.
Sadly the cargo door story should repeat itself. United811. I can't believe that those in charge didn't listen to the engineers and learn the lessons from the DC-10. It is totally incomprehensible.
Ouch. Sorry about thread drift now. Back on topic.
Yes, that ILS thing is peculiar. Rumours has it that they had nothing at all for the open runway so all pilots were told to sidestep from the glideslope at a certain point so they would land on the open runway. I can understand such a procedure when done in nice weather with lots of visibility, but to use that as a standard procedure for instrument flights, during nights or in low visibility is indeed... unusual.
Thankyou IGh for your efforts.
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USA-phraseology and a graphical depiction
. . . don't believe ... any reference to a side step in this accident.
NTSB proposed (?from the alpa-submission?) that that lack of the phraseology, and lack of a graphical-depiction, was the main problem: leading to the pilots' omission / misconception of the final maneuver needed to align with the other rwy 23R.
http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/recletter.../A80_59_60.pdf
The exchange-argument of communication, between NTSB and FAA, are found in the history of the recommendation:
history
FAA's initial reaction to that ntsb-rec':
. . . THE SIDESTEP MINIMUMS ARE PUBLISHED ON THE CHART ALONG WITH STRAIGHT-IN MINIMUMS ... AND CIRCLING MINIMUMS. A SEPARATE ... CHART OF THE SIDESTEP MANEUVER IS NOT WARRANTED ... A HINDERANCE.... PILOT MUST UNDERSTAND HIS ATC CLEARANCE IF HE IS TO SELECT THE SIDESTEP MINIMUMS . . .
. . . We remain concerned that aircrews can be misled by the sidestep maneuver procedures as they are portrayed on standard US instrument approach charts, and we believe there is a need for a plan view of the sidestep maneuver for clarity. We note that Jeppesen has revised the Mexico City instrument approach chart indicating the transition to runway 23R for landing. This action would be responsive to the board's expressed concern if it were applied to all charts . . .
Last edited by IGh; 28th Jan 2014 at 23:14.