M6 Kegworth on BBC News
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I've corrected that line in the Wikipedia page and added a link to the AAIB report which is also referenced at the page bottom.
Have there been changes in engine-out landing approaches for twins since Kegworth (steeper 'flaps-15' approaches for example)? Was covering the M1 with a slab in line with East Midlands runway considered?
Have there been changes in engine-out landing approaches for twins since Kegworth (steeper 'flaps-15' approaches for example)? Was covering the M1 with a slab in line with East Midlands runway considered?
Was covering the M1 with a slab in line with East Midlands runway considered?
A30 at Heathrow, M8/9 at Edinburgh, A79 at Prestwick, M23 at Gatwick (and the railway line too, presumably), etc, etc ...
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Yes, I suppose slabbing over the MI 'ditch' would be 'creating a precedent' in the minds of the bureaucrats . What about low-power steeper approaches with one engine inoperative?
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
I think a lot was learnt from that accident. Several years ago I had to shut down an engine on a 737 because of low oil pressure. During the subsequent diversion to the "nearest suitable" I checked with the FO several times "Which engine was the warning associated with? Which engine have we shut down?"
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Are the cabin crew and passengers ever included in CRM diagnostic thinking/double checking (assuming there's time) when an incident occurs which the crew can't see (engines, rear of aircraft)?
ISTR a former RAFAT Manager, R.. T........e, by then also a former airline captain, spent a fair bit of time on TV, explaining the differences between glass and analogue instruments
A30yoyo,
not long after the Kegworth crash we had an engine fire on take off on a C130K. I was the ALM and reported this to the Captain but there were no indications on the gauges of a problem. As I was by then very experienced on the Herc he took my word for it shut the engine down and landed overweight.We were carrying a load of ammo so it may have concentrated the mind! During the write up he actually referred to the Kegworth incident and how if the cabin crew had been involved the outcome may well have been different.
So your point is well made.
not long after the Kegworth crash we had an engine fire on take off on a C130K. I was the ALM and reported this to the Captain but there were no indications on the gauges of a problem. As I was by then very experienced on the Herc he took my word for it shut the engine down and landed overweight.We were carrying a load of ammo so it may have concentrated the mind! During the write up he actually referred to the Kegworth incident and how if the cabin crew had been involved the outcome may well have been different.
So your point is well made.
if only one of the cabin crew had popped in the flight deck and said Skipper the left one is throwing out tin cans and sparks ....BBC Radio Leicester - Jim Davis, Kegworth - 25 years on new programme - last 60 minutes of show
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I knew both Kevin & Dave prior to joining Midland (Kevin from meeting him in the Glasgow Flying Club bar on his GLA nightstops /Dave from my Flying Instructor course which he completed at the same time ) which only went to reinforce the "it could have happened to anybody" feeling. They were both average line pilots, contrary to the public slagging they took from the AIB engineering inspector, & later BM's chief pilot & various directors. The funny handshake guys stuck together to make sure as much blame as needed was put their way, and the other factors were suitably diluted.
I was in the Orion/Brit Sim at EMA when it happened, on my 737 TR Conversion, & will never forget being greeted at the end of the session by the Sim Ginger Beer "One of your 73's has gone in up at the airport" / "where, off the side ? off the end ?" / "No, on the bloody motorway !" . . .we were shell-shocked.
My significant other knew I was on my TR & probably knew I was only at the Sim stage, but, pre mobile phones I remember the telephone lines being totally overwhelmed & being unable to call home till next day.
I positioned home the next day & had to witness the sight of the arriving relatives on a special flt from BFS being mobbed by the baying press. I think my nature was a bit softer in these days,as, in the same situation today, Nikons would be inserted where they were never designed to go . . . journalistic scum.
It has formed the centre piece of more CRM courses than I care to remember, and has indeed been "done to death", but many valuable lessons were learned.
Tragic, and could have so easily been repeated just afterwards a few junctions further down the M1 when BM launched another 73 out of EMA (to eventually arrive in Luton sharpish) with no seals on oil chip detectors. . .that was a close one.
I don't know what happened to the guys, last I heard Kevin was not too well & he & his erstwhile partner were no longer an item, think Dave has no involvement in aviation, but I stand to be corrected on both points.
Sympathies to those still suffering in one form or another 25 years on.
I was in the Orion/Brit Sim at EMA when it happened, on my 737 TR Conversion, & will never forget being greeted at the end of the session by the Sim Ginger Beer "One of your 73's has gone in up at the airport" / "where, off the side ? off the end ?" / "No, on the bloody motorway !" . . .we were shell-shocked.
My significant other knew I was on my TR & probably knew I was only at the Sim stage, but, pre mobile phones I remember the telephone lines being totally overwhelmed & being unable to call home till next day.
I positioned home the next day & had to witness the sight of the arriving relatives on a special flt from BFS being mobbed by the baying press. I think my nature was a bit softer in these days,as, in the same situation today, Nikons would be inserted where they were never designed to go . . . journalistic scum.
It has formed the centre piece of more CRM courses than I care to remember, and has indeed been "done to death", but many valuable lessons were learned.
Tragic, and could have so easily been repeated just afterwards a few junctions further down the M1 when BM launched another 73 out of EMA (to eventually arrive in Luton sharpish) with no seals on oil chip detectors. . .that was a close one.
I don't know what happened to the guys, last I heard Kevin was not too well & he & his erstwhile partner were no longer an item, think Dave has no involvement in aviation, but I stand to be corrected on both points.
Sympathies to those still suffering in one form or another 25 years on.
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Often, Pprune responses to incidents (of varying severity) degenerate into arguments and postulations about how passengers behaved and their comments afterwards. I found some of the personal experiences quoted in the article below quite profound. From those who realised something was amiss ie, the baker who noticed the engine failure mentioned by the captain was referring to the wrong engine, to those whose lives were irreversibly transformed by the horror of the experience and who still suffer today.
Maybe some of the armchair 'pilots and passengers' posting here (who I accept may never have been near an aircraft) will think of this the next time they are ready to scoff at a report of an emergency landing or depressurization.
BBC News - Kegworth air disaster: Plane crash survivors' stories
Maybe some of the armchair 'pilots and passengers' posting here (who I accept may never have been near an aircraft) will think of this the next time they are ready to scoff at a report of an emergency landing or depressurization.
BBC News - Kegworth air disaster: Plane crash survivors' stories
captnplaystaion
thanks for your nice response
the radio programme today had a short interview with MB and he said Kevin died 6-9 months ago
I had lost touch so was saddened to hear this today
BBC Radio Leicester - Jim Davis, Kegworth - 25 years on
New documentary about the accident go to last 60 minutes
the radio programme today had a short interview with MB and he said Kevin died 6-9 months ago
I had lost touch so was saddened to hear this today
BBC Radio Leicester - Jim Davis, Kegworth - 25 years on
New documentary about the accident go to last 60 minutes
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ancientaviator62
Well your Hercules initiative may have contributed to your making it to ancientaviator status.....does current CRMthink include the Captain or his messenger pro-actively going back and asking the passengers and/or cabin crew 'what they saw' (given the luxury of time) when the incident could not be seen from the cockpit? (Aviate, Navigate, Communicate, Investigate?)
Well your Hercules initiative may have contributed to your making it to ancientaviator status.....does current CRMthink include the Captain or his messenger pro-actively going back and asking the passengers and/or cabin crew 'what they saw' (given the luxury of time) when the incident could not be seen from the cockpit? (Aviate, Navigate, Communicate, Investigate?)
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rog747
Sad to hear that, I am guessing he wasn't exactly cherishing the date looming on the horizon. He never came across as bitter on the couple of times I met him afterwards, more an inner sadness that he felt other aspects had been ignored in the rush to behead a scapegoat.
I guess we should remain happy for him he survived that long ,given the extent of his injuries, although his quality of life subsequently was not the best.
Edited to say, this from another forum
May 18, 12, 4:30 pm
Unfortunately Kevin's funeral was today.
The bit of the investigation which didn't get highlighted was "What was the conversion training for the pilots for 737-300 to 737-400 at that time and why did it change so dramatically afterwards?
Sad to hear that, I am guessing he wasn't exactly cherishing the date looming on the horizon. He never came across as bitter on the couple of times I met him afterwards, more an inner sadness that he felt other aspects had been ignored in the rush to behead a scapegoat.
I guess we should remain happy for him he survived that long ,given the extent of his injuries, although his quality of life subsequently was not the best.
Edited to say, this from another forum
May 18, 12, 4:30 pm
Unfortunately Kevin's funeral was today.
The bit of the investigation which didn't get highlighted was "What was the conversion training for the pilots for 737-300 to 737-400 at that time and why did it change so dramatically afterwards?
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I recently went to a lecture by a researcher in Human Factors, who used Kegworth as one of his examples.
IIRC he mentioned that the conversion training for the new 737s was poor, and didn't emphasise that the air supplied to the cockpit and cabin came from the engine on the opposite side to the one used in early models of 737. This meant that when the pilots smelled smoke they assumed it was coming from the "other" engine, which they duly shut down.
In addition, the policy at the time was that cabin crew should not distract the pilots in an emergency, so the information from the pax was not passed on.
IIRC he mentioned that the conversion training for the new 737s was poor, and didn't emphasise that the air supplied to the cockpit and cabin came from the engine on the opposite side to the one used in early models of 737. This meant that when the pilots smelled smoke they assumed it was coming from the "other" engine, which they duly shut down.
In addition, the policy at the time was that cabin crew should not distract the pilots in an emergency, so the information from the pax was not passed on.
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out of interest (maybe) I used to work with someone who was on that flight. The person had a very 'devil may care' attitude and didn't get stressed too much. Over a few beers one day he said that he was on the Kegworth flight, but as he hated flying he got tanked up before take off.
As he staggered to his seat he was asked by a couple of girls if he would change seats. He didn't mind and plonked himself down. In his drunken stupor he says that he vaguely recalls 'a real commotion' in the cabin, and then nothing ........for weeks.
Apparently, he was in coma and eventually came round. In the meantime, his family thought he was dead as the girl he changed seats with died in the crash.
From that day he treated each day as a bonus, hence his very relaxed attitude?
Regards,
C23
As he staggered to his seat he was asked by a couple of girls if he would change seats. He didn't mind and plonked himself down. In his drunken stupor he says that he vaguely recalls 'a real commotion' in the cabin, and then nothing ........for weeks.
Apparently, he was in coma and eventually came round. In the meantime, his family thought he was dead as the girl he changed seats with died in the crash.
From that day he treated each day as a bonus, hence his very relaxed attitude?
Regards,
C23
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
4Greens, have to agree with you. RAF transport aircraft were all fitted that way (still are?), and research has shown that it improves survivability considerably. However, we're in the chicken/egg situation where no manufacturer will produce them because of public perception, and the public don't know because no aircraft are fitted that way.
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A swift search on Pprune 'rear facing seats' brings up (amongst other threads)
http://www.pprune.org/aviation-histo...nder-tail.html
which suggests rear facing seats expose passengers more to flying debris in a hard deceleration but also gives a few examples of airliners which had at least partial rear facing seats (Trident, BAC 1-11) and mentions BUA BAC1-11s on military charters with all rear-facing seats
http://www.pprune.org/aviation-histo...nder-tail.html
which suggests rear facing seats expose passengers more to flying debris in a hard deceleration but also gives a few examples of airliners which had at least partial rear facing seats (Trident, BAC 1-11) and mentions BUA BAC1-11s on military charters with all rear-facing seats
