VC10 records in 1987
Thread Starter
VC10 records in 1987
Apart from the flight that ZA147 flew non-stop to Perth there were a few other records set by VC10s in 1987. As far as we've been able to establish there were at least five, and probably six records that were set by two VC10s between the UK and the Falkland Islands over a period from 19 December to 22 December. One VC10 flew to Ascension Island on the 19th, continued on to Mount Pleasant on the 20th and flew back over the next two days via Ascension again. This netted four FAI ratified records for these stretches which were flown without using air-to-air refueling.
A second VC10 left the UK and flew non-stop to the Falklands, taking on fuel from ZA147 on the way over. This also was recorded as a record flight by the FAI. What we're not sure about is whether this happened again on the way back as we've not been able to find the details about this last record flight.
So now for the big question: who can fill in some more of the details about these flights? Specifically the details of the sixth flight from Mount Pleasant to the UK, the registrations of the VC10s involved and anything else worth mentioning.
I've already asked the FAI themselves but only three of these records are in their online database and they cannot dig through the archives just for this. I've got photos of the FAI certificates for the five flights mentioned above but these do not list the registrations. I do think that XV109 was one of the VC10s involved.
A second VC10 left the UK and flew non-stop to the Falklands, taking on fuel from ZA147 on the way over. This also was recorded as a record flight by the FAI. What we're not sure about is whether this happened again on the way back as we've not been able to find the details about this last record flight.
So now for the big question: who can fill in some more of the details about these flights? Specifically the details of the sixth flight from Mount Pleasant to the UK, the registrations of the VC10s involved and anything else worth mentioning.
I've already asked the FAI themselves but only three of these records are in their online database and they cannot dig through the archives just for this. I've got photos of the FAI certificates for the five flights mentioned above but these do not list the registrations. I do think that XV109 was one of the VC10s involved.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: UK
Age: 76
Posts: 620
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One VC10 flew to Ascension Island on the 19th, continued on to Mount Pleasant on the 20th and flew back over the next two days via Ascension again. This netted four FAI ratified records for these stretches which were flown without using air-to-air refueling.
BZZ to ASI 8.20
ASI to MPN 7.30
MPN to ASI 7.30
ASI to BZZ 8.25
The turn-round times for the aircraft were 1.30 at ASI and 2.00 at MPN.
Edit.....the above times are 'chock-to-chock'. I'm afraid that I didn't record the flight times.
BTW.....we didn't use air-to-air refuelling either.
Last edited by Airclues; 24th Nov 2013 at 21:52. Reason: spelling
One VC10 flew to Ascension Island on the 19th, continued on to Mount Pleasant on the 20th and flew back over the next two days via Ascension again. This netted four FAI ratified records for these stretches which were flown without using air-to-air refueling.
My logbook records:
19 Dec 1987 VC10K3 ZA149 Capt: Self Co-pilot Flt Lt H*w**t Duty: OP MEDAL TRAIL 3:05 Day/ 0:10 Night 0:30 Act IF, 1 x ILS, 1 x landing.
As I recall it, we took off at 1300, followed by a VC10C1 to which we gave enough fuel somewhere in the SW Apps so that it could fly direct to ASI with island holding reserve.
The VC10C1 captain would have been the 101 Sqn Tanker Training Flight pilot on board (Dave M*l**r?), not a 10 Sqn captain (much to their annoyance) as there were no 10 Sqn AAR qualified pilots in those days.
BEagle: It would appear that the FAI disagrees, and that there must have been another flight south on 19 Dec 87:
Fai Record File
And the matching certificate is annotated:
"Categorie A (sans ravitaillement en vol)"
And, as I understand, you are quite correct in stating that 10 Sqn pilots had not been AAR qualified by that time.
Fai Record File
And the matching certificate is annotated:
"Categorie A (sans ravitaillement en vol)"
And, as I understand, you are quite correct in stating that 10 Sqn pilots had not been AAR qualified by that time.
Thread Starter
VC10 records in 1987
The FAI certificates all say London. I think that they routed overhead London, or as near as possible and started the timing from that point. On the other end they all end at Port Stanley and not Mount Pleasant so I'm guessing that the records were timed from overhead to overhead.
Thread Starter
We've found another statement that also points towards a refuelling for the BZN-ASI sector but as the FAI certificates clearly say 'without' I took this as having been confused with the other non-stop flight.
Well, LON to ASI via the great circle direct route wouldn't have been possible due to African overflight. So just nipping the tip of Africa via Gran Canaria and Dakar would mean distance of 3746 nm on a route similar to this:
FAI average speed equates to 445.114 kts, giving a flight time of 8:25. Add to that the requirement for island holding fuel and I'm still not sure how John managed it without AAR....
SW Apps = South West Approaches. Probably no further out into the Atlantic than 15°W?
SW Apps = South West Approaches. Probably no further out into the Atlantic than 15°W?
Last edited by BEagle; 25th Nov 2013 at 19:17.
Registered User **
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Botswana & Greece
Age: 68
Posts: 940
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
10 Sqn pilots had not been AAR qualified by that time.
Not sure of the distance but I think my longest range flight was Caracus to Brize on a Royal.Flt time 8hrs 20mins.
FAI average speed equates to 445.114 kts, giving a flight time of 8:25.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
VC10 C1 was no slouch when 'clean'.
A quick look in the log book shows:
17Mar85 XR810 - ASI-BZZ 8.40
and
22Oct86 XR808 - NAIROBI-LOSSIE 10.15
I do remember on the latter we were empty and ended up at FL430!
A quick look in the log book shows:
17Mar85 XR810 - ASI-BZZ 8.40
and
22Oct86 XR808 - NAIROBI-LOSSIE 10.15
I do remember on the latter we were empty and ended up at FL430!
Thread Starter
That sort of makes sense DaveReidUK! It would tie in with other aspects of the records.
The strange thing that remains puzzling is why the certificates state 'without aerial refuelling' while all the evidence points towards the use of just that during the flights to and from ASI. From another correspondence I've got this snippet:
"XV109 left Ascension to make the fastest transit to Mount Pleasant, and took on 20 Tonnes about 3 hours into the trip ".
That provides a registration for the VC10 that stopped at ASI, and also seems to confirm the refuelling in flight that was used on these flights, as was pointed out earlier from BEagle's logbook. Here's the certificate for that trip:
So there's an inconsistency here but BEagle also pointed out that going non-stop without inflight refuelling would have been problematic because of the island holding reserves that needed to be carried. It looks like there was a refuelling on both legs around two to three hours into the flight, from ZA149 flown by BEagle on the first outbound leg and from another 101 Sqn tanker three hours out from ASI (this may have been ZA147). Now why the FAI have overlooked this little fact is a mystery, but it doesn't take away from the achievements.
Summarising:
The strange thing that remains puzzling is why the certificates state 'without aerial refuelling' while all the evidence points towards the use of just that during the flights to and from ASI. From another correspondence I've got this snippet:
"XV109 left Ascension to make the fastest transit to Mount Pleasant, and took on 20 Tonnes about 3 hours into the trip ".
That provides a registration for the VC10 that stopped at ASI, and also seems to confirm the refuelling in flight that was used on these flights, as was pointed out earlier from BEagle's logbook. Here's the certificate for that trip:
So there's an inconsistency here but BEagle also pointed out that going non-stop without inflight refuelling would have been problematic because of the island holding reserves that needed to be carried. It looks like there was a refuelling on both legs around two to three hours into the flight, from ZA149 flown by BEagle on the first outbound leg and from another 101 Sqn tanker three hours out from ASI (this may have been ZA147). Now why the FAI have overlooked this little fact is a mystery, but it doesn't take away from the achievements.
Summarising:
- Halstead with XV109 from BZN to ASI, refuelled from ZA149 over the Atlantic, on 19 December 1987.
- Halstead again with XV109 from ASI to MPN, refuelled three hours away from ASI, perhaps from ZA147? On 20 December 1987.
- Halstead flew back from MPN to ASI on the 21st December 1987, with refuelling again? It's safe to assume that XV109 was used again.
- On the same day this VC10 left ASI again with Knapp in command, arriving in the UK on 22 December. Again no further details for this flight apart from what's on the certificate.
- Lumb with another VC10 flying from the UK to MPN using two inflight refuellings, one of which was a record in itself, 54 tonne from ZA147. Having left on 19 December, the VC10 stayed in the air for 15 hours 45 minutes arriving at MPN on 20 December.
- This aircraft flew back the next day, non-stop again but I don't have the details of this flight.
Last edited by Jhieminga; 26th Nov 2013 at 17:39.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Neither here nor there
Age: 80
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry to chuck in a bit more confusion but I seem to recall that BZZ Staish, Chris Lumb took XV109 non-stop BZZ - MPN (Beg pardon, BEagle, should that be EGVN-EGYP?) on or about 19 Dec 87 and was refuelled by a VC10K launched out of ASI. Might the FAI Chit refer to OH ASI to OH Port Stanley without refuelling? I say Chris Lumb took the aircraft but, of course he was not necessarily the captain and it would have required an augmented crew to do the trip so who was driving when I couldn't say. I also remember that the record was nearly trumped a few days later when a Tristar K launched out of Brize at about 1630 on Christmas Eve to take some medical kit to treat a seriously ill soldier (I think) in FI. I heard that the turn round at ASI was completed in record time and that the total transit time to MPN, even with the stop, was not far short of the record set by the VC10 a few days earlier. Gave a whole new meaning to 216's motto "Dona Ferens" - life-saving medical kit so much more Christmassy than big black bomb! It was a good end to a week in which, I reckon, each of the Brize squadrons acquitted itself well.
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Arfer Minnit
I seem to recall that BZZ Staish, Chris Lumb took XV109 non-stop BZZ - MPN
There are three more for the LON-ASI, MPN-ASI and ASI-LON legs but we haven't found the matching one for the non-stop return leg yet.
Don't worry about more confusion... we'll get it sorted somehow! I do know that this FAI record file lists XV109 as the airframe that landed at ASI on the way back. I assumed from that and from another conversation that it would have been that VC10 that flew the four legs via ASI. Either myself or the FAI might be wrong or they switched VC10s at MPN.... all possible of course.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: UK
Age: 76
Posts: 620
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Disregarding false sectors (flying overhead etc) so as to achieve a 'record' could somebody tell me how the average VC10 times between BZZ and MPN compared with the 'chock-to-chock' times given in my post;
BZZ to ASI 8.20
ASI to MPN 7.30
MPN to ASI 7.30
ASI to BZZ 8.25
Having flown both the VC10 and the 747, I would put my money on the 747 being faster.
BZZ to ASI 8.20
ASI to MPN 7.30
MPN to ASI 7.30
ASI to BZZ 8.25
Having flown both the VC10 and the 747, I would put my money on the 747 being faster.
Thread Starter
Airclues, I've now found the times from the 1987 record attempts:
BZZ - ASI: 8.12 (with AAR)
ASI - MPN: 7.41 (with AAR)
MPN - ASI: 6.51
ASI - BZZ: 8:10
Looks like the 747 only has the VC10 beat on one sector! The times above may not be chock to chock though but it's the best I can do I'm afraid.
I've also got another confirmation that indeed the flights to MPA via ASI did use AAR, as already mentioned by BEagle. The return flights via ASI were unrefuelled though. Quite why the FAI recorded the first two sectors as being unrefuelled is a very good question that we probably won't find the answer to. I'll add more information later once I've got everything tidied up for the website.
BZZ - ASI: 8.12 (with AAR)
ASI - MPN: 7.41 (with AAR)
MPN - ASI: 6.51
ASI - BZZ: 8:10
Looks like the 747 only has the VC10 beat on one sector! The times above may not be chock to chock though but it's the best I can do I'm afraid.
I've also got another confirmation that indeed the flights to MPA via ASI did use AAR, as already mentioned by BEagle. The return flights via ASI were unrefuelled though. Quite why the FAI recorded the first two sectors as being unrefuelled is a very good question that we probably won't find the answer to. I'll add more information later once I've got everything tidied up for the website.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: UK
Age: 76
Posts: 620
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MPN - ASI: 6.51
EDIT; Of course the 747 is in a different FAI weight category, so the faster times wouldn't affect the record.
Last edited by Airclues; 22nd Dec 2013 at 20:47.