Westland Whirlwind Fighter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Planet Claire
Age: 63
Posts: 587
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don't quote me but I believe its a reference to the Whirlwinds cracking low altitude performance. For sure it was known as the 'crikey' in service. Presumably as you rattled along at strafing level with your 4 20mm's blazing away at our continental cousins, with the peregrines roaring away a matter of a few feet either side of your head and trees and bullets passing nearby that 'Crikey!!' might be an appropriate utterance?
Anyone else got an explanation? It was certainly quite an aircraft.
Anyone else got an explanation? It was certainly quite an aircraft.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Birmingham, England (sometimes)
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have - somewhere - a wartime picture of a Whirlwind (a rather tatty looking example ) with a caption mentioning is 'Crikey' nickname. My comment was meant to show that at least one other ppruner recognised the allusion
I always did like the design, such a pity that the engines were never given the development they needed. I recall they were half a Vulture and we all know how good they were in the Avro Manchester
Edited after a check on the above: the Perigrine was an update on the Kestrel. according to the Gunson big book of aircraft engines, so why it wasn't so successful is strange. the Vulture was two Perigrine blocks mounted together to produce an X engine. Whichever way it was neither did the business.
VnV...
I always did like the design, such a pity that the engines were never given the development they needed. I recall they were half a Vulture and we all know how good they were in the Avro Manchester
Edited after a check on the above: the Perigrine was an update on the Kestrel. according to the Gunson big book of aircraft engines, so why it wasn't so successful is strange. the Vulture was two Perigrine blocks mounted together to produce an X engine. Whichever way it was neither did the business.
VnV...
Last edited by VnV2178B; 7th Jun 2002 at 23:15.
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Portsmouth
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Peregrine
The real problem with the Peregrine was the development of the Merlin, which rapidly took over all the facilities at Derby and other RR plants, and as the Whirlwind was the only Peregrine-engined production a/c it was decided to cease production in 1942 after production of 301. With a the exception of a couple of development prototypes all Vulture production (538 in all) was used for the Manchester. The Vulture at 1,800 hp was comparable to the slightly later Griffin II but was much bulkier and had teething problems with the coolant system (it was treated as two seperate systems for the the cylinder blocks, but as the sytems were interconnected there could be cavitation problems).
Guest
Posts: n/a
As you can guess, the powerplants are our biggest headache.
We can't find any Peregrines or Vultures for that matter, unless there's one in a collection we haven't heard about.
At the moment, we are looking at the Falconer V-12 , which appears to have a close punch to weight ratio.
But, any leads on Peregrines will be much appreciated
Tony
We can't find any Peregrines or Vultures for that matter, unless there's one in a collection we haven't heard about.
At the moment, we are looking at the Falconer V-12 , which appears to have a close punch to weight ratio.
But, any leads on Peregrines will be much appreciated
Tony
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Northwest England
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Another interesting thing about their performance was their relatively high take off/landing speed. My father flew them in 137 Squadron. He told me of the difficulty of keeping them on the narrow runway at Matlaske, Norfolk after landing, and on more than one occasion a pilot was left dangling from his shoulder harness having run off into soft ground and tipping up on his nose, otherwise unharmed. I have also spoken to a local farmer who recalled seeing aircraft from his nearby farm dropping out of site on landing only to reappear above the hedges as they bounced down the runway!
My old man is, alas, no longer with us but his and his squadron's story is told at the small museum at RAF Coltishall.
Good luck to all with this project. It was such a good looking plane in spite of, or because of, its CRICKEY factor.
Cheers.
Niaga Dessip
My old man is, alas, no longer with us but his and his squadron's story is told at the small museum at RAF Coltishall.
Good luck to all with this project. It was such a good looking plane in spite of, or because of, its CRICKEY factor.
Cheers.
Niaga Dessip
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: England
Age: 77
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Westland Whirlwind fighter (not the heli)
Dear all,
During the Winter months at West London Aero Club, White Waltham, we run monthly talks. Last night's talk was about the Westland Whirlwind. We were privileged to hear from Alec Torrance, who flew these aircraft in WWII, and from Jim Munro, whose father had also flown this aircraft.
Jim has gathered a lot of information on the aircraft (from which it appears that the a/c did not deserve the poor reputation that it received), but is keen to hear more. Some Pathe news film has recently emerged, filmed at Warmwell (Dorset I believe). Jim is keen to receive any more information, particularly about any more film, and the fate of the one example that went to the USA for evaluation.
All contributions gratefully received,
Best wishes,
Chris Royle
During the Winter months at West London Aero Club, White Waltham, we run monthly talks. Last night's talk was about the Westland Whirlwind. We were privileged to hear from Alec Torrance, who flew these aircraft in WWII, and from Jim Munro, whose father had also flown this aircraft.
Jim has gathered a lot of information on the aircraft (from which it appears that the a/c did not deserve the poor reputation that it received), but is keen to hear more. Some Pathe news film has recently emerged, filmed at Warmwell (Dorset I believe). Jim is keen to receive any more information, particularly about any more film, and the fate of the one example that went to the USA for evaluation.
All contributions gratefully received,
Best wishes,
Chris Royle
Gnome de PPRuNe
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Too close to Croydon for comfort
Age: 60
Posts: 12,635
Received 300 Likes
on
168 Posts
Was it the Whirlwind that routed the exhaust through a fuel tank? I hope soemone can convince me that one was erroneous... please....
In the 1950s, I was told that there was a Westland Whirlwind fighter 'behind the hangar' at Westland's Merryfield facility. I find this hard to believe as this was at least 10 years after the end of WWII. Perhaps it was one of the stored Welkins?
There were still gems to be found in those days - I once discovered a hangar full of Belgian registered CF-100s before being chased off by a security jobsworth!
The tunnels used for the vectored thrust Meteor trials were another interesting discovery.
There were still gems to be found in those days - I once discovered a hangar full of Belgian registered CF-100s before being chased off by a security jobsworth!
The tunnels used for the vectored thrust Meteor trials were another interesting discovery.
[QUOTE=BEagle]In the 1950s, I was told that there was a Westland Whirlwind fighter 'behind the hangar' at Westland's Merryfield facility. I find this hard to believe as this was at least 10 years after the end of WWII. Perhaps it was one of the stored Welkins?
In August 1960, we had a conducted tour of Merryfield by a bored naval rating who had sole charge of the place. Sadly, we did not find the rumoured Welkin and we looked behind the hangar. However, on a farm near the main entrance there was a float (possibly two, my memory is vague) from something like a Supermarine S.6b. Never seen anything written about this.
In August 1960, we had a conducted tour of Merryfield by a bored naval rating who had sole charge of the place. Sadly, we did not find the rumoured Welkin and we looked behind the hangar. However, on a farm near the main entrance there was a float (possibly two, my memory is vague) from something like a Supermarine S.6b. Never seen anything written about this.
In 1952, Meteor RA490 was modified by Westlands for a jet deflection system to be installed. This used 2 modified Nene 101 engines in specially extended nacelles. The jet efflux could either be deflected rearwards or downwards through ducts in the lower nacelles under the wing. Between 1953 and 1954 it was under test by Westlands; it was then transferred to the RAE before ending its days being used for firefighting purposes in 1957.
With deflection, the Meteor could fly at 70KIAS. One wonders how the pilots felt about engine failure in such a flight regime as this was long before the days of the rocket ejector seat!
The tunnels at Merryfield were 2 parallel concrete ducts of about 4 ft diameter (large enough for small boys to explore!). At one end they were fitted with 90 deg metal ducts facing upwards, I can't remember how the far end was terminated. I imagine the Meteor would be parked with the nacelle ducts over the tunnel entrances for engine ground runs.
The location was in a hardstanding opposite the GCA access off the easterly section of the taxiway to the north of RW26. There were access tracks to the taxiway from the Westlands site, but the hardstandings and tracks have all now been removed as the Westlands site is now a self-contained gypsy site.
I don't recall the floats you mention though, Atcham Tower. We didn't have anything like that at the farm by the entrance, but the Navy (and later, RAF) personnel living at Woodhouse Farm might have had something like that, perhaps?
With deflection, the Meteor could fly at 70KIAS. One wonders how the pilots felt about engine failure in such a flight regime as this was long before the days of the rocket ejector seat!
The tunnels at Merryfield were 2 parallel concrete ducts of about 4 ft diameter (large enough for small boys to explore!). At one end they were fitted with 90 deg metal ducts facing upwards, I can't remember how the far end was terminated. I imagine the Meteor would be parked with the nacelle ducts over the tunnel entrances for engine ground runs.
The location was in a hardstanding opposite the GCA access off the easterly section of the taxiway to the north of RW26. There were access tracks to the taxiway from the Westlands site, but the hardstandings and tracks have all now been removed as the Westlands site is now a self-contained gypsy site.
I don't recall the floats you mention though, Atcham Tower. We didn't have anything like that at the farm by the entrance, but the Navy (and later, RAF) personnel living at Woodhouse Farm might have had something like that, perhaps?
Well that's exactly what I thought it must have been! The Welkins were put into store after WWII, I wonder where the others went....
May I ask how you know? And when was it there?
May I ask how you know? And when was it there?
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: France
Posts: 289
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was a QFI at Merryfield 1952 until it closed as an AFS, from memory in 1954, when you were running around Ilton and district in grubby short pants.
Alongside the Welkin was a Hamilcar, which at one stage in its life had been the powered version, plus the tunnels of which you speak and often a Wyvern which H.Penrose had been or was going to test.
Bon chance mon brave.
Alongside the Welkin was a Hamilcar, which at one stage in its life had been the powered version, plus the tunnels of which you speak and often a Wyvern which H.Penrose had been or was going to test.
Bon chance mon brave.
TheVillagePhotographer.co.uk
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Cotswolds UK
Posts: 1,078
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Only piece I have ever read of the Whirlwind in combat, was in one of the late Roland Beamont's books (Phoenix into ashes, maybe?) It told of a mission to France with his Typhoons and I think, the Whirlwinds of 263 Sqn. Only a fw pages, but for the Whirlwind tyro, it might be interesting.
Conan
Conan my dear chap, please do not resurrect old threads when there one on the same subject already running. Ta!
Conan
Conan my dear chap, please do not resurrect old threads when there one on the same subject already running. Ta!
Ah yes, of course. We've PPRuNed before!
I remember the Wyverns - particularly the noise they made! Not as bad as the later Sabres which Westlands would test 7 days a week.
I'm glad you've confirmed the tunnels existed as no-one would believe me! Did you ever see the deflected-jet Meteor? It was probably there in 1953-54 when you were QFI-ing and I hadn't even started nuresry school!
I understand that 208 AFS became 10 FTS and then 9 FTS in 1954, before disbanding in Feb 1955. I was just too young to remember that period, but vaguely remember the Bassingbourn Canberras which were at Merryfield until late 1956 before the FAA arrived.
I was amazed to learn that the Welkin had a wingspan of 70 ft! Must be close to a record for a single seat fighter.
I remember the Wyverns - particularly the noise they made! Not as bad as the later Sabres which Westlands would test 7 days a week.
I'm glad you've confirmed the tunnels existed as no-one would believe me! Did you ever see the deflected-jet Meteor? It was probably there in 1953-54 when you were QFI-ing and I hadn't even started nuresry school!
I understand that 208 AFS became 10 FTS and then 9 FTS in 1954, before disbanding in Feb 1955. I was just too young to remember that period, but vaguely remember the Bassingbourn Canberras which were at Merryfield until late 1956 before the FAA arrived.
I was amazed to learn that the Welkin had a wingspan of 70 ft! Must be close to a record for a single seat fighter.
I think RAE may have built their own set of tunnels. They consisted of a pair of ducts entering the ground at about a 30 deg angle then exiting about 50ft further along situated roughly at the northern end of The Diamonds where the access road to the new control tower enters the apron (ie just east of Y9 Bldg). They were covered in undergrowth in RAE days and were only exposed when DERA's Experimental Flying Wing departed and the ground was partially cleared. It was obvious they were for some sort of jet engines, but I could never figure out what aircraft due to the angle of entry into the ground; the distance between the two would have been about Meteor engine - engine width and I seem to remember they had a curving metal shield on the bottom to prevent soil erosion.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: France
Posts: 289
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry BEagle but I do not remember the Meteor, old age you know.
The Welkin certainly was a large aircraft, I assume that there were hopes that it was going to perform well at high level.
As for the Wyvern, I agree that it was noisy except on several occasions when it was everybody out of the circuit, Mr P has another flame out!!
The Welkin certainly was a large aircraft, I assume that there were hopes that it was going to perform well at high level.
As for the Wyvern, I agree that it was noisy except on several occasions when it was everybody out of the circuit, Mr P has another flame out!!