Westland Whirlwind Fighter
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Just found my piston engine book and the Peregrine was a direct descendent (incorporating Merlin developments) of the RR Kestrel, probably the best engine of the late 20s and 30s. Only 301 Peregrines were made, the components of 1000+ more going to produce the Vulture, essentially 2 Kestrels/Peregrines joined to a single shaft, and like the similar DB610 an expensive failure - remember the Avro Manchester.. .The Whirlwind had similar speed to contemporary single engined fighters and had about double the range.. .At the end of the war similar a/c were entering service on both sides of the atlantic in the form of the deHavilland Hornet and Grumman Tigercat, both being amongst the fastest piston engined a/c and with greater range than the early jets. Both had only short service careers and both ended up as twin seat night fighters, the radar op being buried in the fuselage.. .The twin mustang (P80/F80) was never a single seater, both fuselages having occupants. Originally the second seat was for a relief pilot, allowing extremely long patrols, but later fitted with radar, the operator then occupying the second seat.. .Of course both the Meteor and Me262 were single seater twins, mainly due to the relatively poor performance and reliability of the early jet engines.
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Mycroft:
I have just seen this thread and I was fascinated by what you have to say. It largely ties in with what I remember hearing from my father who flew in 137 Squadron. Sadly he died in 1963, but I still remember a lot of his tales, and I have his log books.
He was stationed at Matlaske, Norfolk, a satellite of Coltishall. The aircraft had a high takeoff and landing speed and quite a tall undercarriage. With the narrow runway at Matlaske and the ploughed land either side there were several accidents with planes leaving the runway and tipping up on their nose. This necessitated the rescue of the pilot dangling from this shoulder straps.
In recent years I have spoken to local residents a couple of miles away who remember them disappearing from view as they neared the runway and then reappearing briefly as they bounced up on landing.
He might have been wrong of course, but the old man was under the impression that had war not broken out when it did, putting Merlin production under pressure, the Whirlwind might have also been equipped with that engine.
It goes without saying that I would love to talk with anyone who as links with my father's old squadron
Cheers. ND
I have just seen this thread and I was fascinated by what you have to say. It largely ties in with what I remember hearing from my father who flew in 137 Squadron. Sadly he died in 1963, but I still remember a lot of his tales, and I have his log books.
He was stationed at Matlaske, Norfolk, a satellite of Coltishall. The aircraft had a high takeoff and landing speed and quite a tall undercarriage. With the narrow runway at Matlaske and the ploughed land either side there were several accidents with planes leaving the runway and tipping up on their nose. This necessitated the rescue of the pilot dangling from this shoulder straps.
In recent years I have spoken to local residents a couple of miles away who remember them disappearing from view as they neared the runway and then reappearing briefly as they bounced up on landing.
He might have been wrong of course, but the old man was under the impression that had war not broken out when it did, putting Merlin production under pressure, the Whirlwind might have also been equipped with that engine.
It goes without saying that I would love to talk with anyone who as links with my father's old squadron
Cheers. ND
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Westland Whirlwind fighter -Help needed
If any of you follow the discussions on the WIX board, http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org...ix1msgboard.mv , then you will know about our plan, to build a Westland Whirlwind from scratch. The replica, will be built in aluminium throughout, as opposed to magnesium, as per the original. The intention, is to build an EXTREMELY faithful replica, that will eventually taxi under it's own power, until such time, as it is placed on permanent display. To this end, we need your help. We have already been offered the A+P's for this aircraft, but we still need as many bits and drawings, as can physically be found. We need the powerplants, and any pieces of airframe, that might still be extant in the UK and elsewhere. We need crash locations or ditching locations for further investigation, or any information that can be offered. The projected time , at this moment, from "plans down" to first taxi, is 3 years. If you can help, please reply via this forum, or contact me, Tony King at [email protected]
Many thanks
Tony
Many thanks
Tony
Join Date: May 2001
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I have a set of volumes titled AIRCRAFT OF THE FIGHTING POWERS
dated 1939 to 1945.
One of them has plans and photographs for the WESTLAND WELKIN.
Now the sad bit, I know one of the volumes had the same on the WHiIRLWIND, I remeber looking at them.
I mentioned these books on another aviation website and a punter expressed a great interest, so Drapes being a generous cove packed up and sent him one volume,to somewhere in France no less, never heard another peep, so I had no idea if he had recieved same or it had gone adrift, so I hung on to the other four volumes.
You guessed it the volume that has vanished is the one with the details of the WHIRLWIND.
The 1945 edition does have as I said details of the WHELKIN.
ps, If your organisation is interested these books contain as far as I can see drawings plans photographsand details of every aircraft of the second world war period, they will only finish up in a skip when Drapes pops his cloggs so if you drop me a line you may certainly have them .
dated 1939 to 1945.
One of them has plans and photographs for the WESTLAND WELKIN.
Now the sad bit, I know one of the volumes had the same on the WHiIRLWIND, I remeber looking at them.
I mentioned these books on another aviation website and a punter expressed a great interest, so Drapes being a generous cove packed up and sent him one volume,to somewhere in France no less, never heard another peep, so I had no idea if he had recieved same or it had gone adrift, so I hung on to the other four volumes.
You guessed it the volume that has vanished is the one with the details of the WHIRLWIND.
The 1945 edition does have as I said details of the WHELKIN.
ps, If your organisation is interested these books contain as far as I can see drawings plans photographsand details of every aircraft of the second world war period, they will only finish up in a skip when Drapes pops his cloggs so if you drop me a line you may certainly have them .
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I have a vague recollection of hearing of some Whirlwind engines (Merlins?) in Canada. I am really scouring my memory banks here, it may have been on Barnstormers.
Good luck with a monster of a project. If the original was built of magnesium I guess you will need some luck finding original parts. Still it never ceases to amaze me what kind of thing shows up.
Good luck with a monster of a project. If the original was built of magnesium I guess you will need some luck finding original parts. Still it never ceases to amaze me what kind of thing shows up.
The Wirlwind's engines were Rolls-Royce Peregrines. I guess finding those will be a huge problem, if not an improbability. Even RR lost interest in developing the engine during the war and this was one of the main reasons that the Wirlwind didn't reach it's true potential.
It's a great looking aircraft! I will definitively be watching out for it if you can get it built!
It's a great looking aircraft! I will definitively be watching out for it if you can get it built!
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Thanks Drapes,
Yes, definite interest, shame about the Whirlwind Volume, but a fabulous series of books Can you e-mail me off forum, to hammer out the details?
The plan is to skin the aircraft in aluminium, as magnesium, is a little bit impractical, from a durability and cost point of view !
It is a pretty amazing aircraft. what it could have done with merlins, is anyones guess, but I imagine, very much a single seat mossie...
Thanks to all who are contributing, keep racking the brain cells, we need everything, photos, info etc, nothing too small, and nothing refused!
Best regards
Tony
Yes, definite interest, shame about the Whirlwind Volume, but a fabulous series of books
Can you e-mail me off forum, to hammer out the details?The plan is to skin the aircraft in aluminium, as magnesium, is a little bit impractical, from a durability and cost point of view !
It is a pretty amazing aircraft. what it could have done with merlins, is anyones guess, but I imagine, very much a single seat mossie...
Thanks to all who are contributing, keep racking the brain cells, we need everything, photos, info etc, nothing too small, and nothing refused!
Best regards
Tony
Join Date: Oct 1998
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Meteor
Have looked at a photo and line drawing I was struck by the similarity of the fin and tail plane to the Meteor. Was there someone involved common to both a/c during the design stage?
solotk, good luck with the project. On the basis it will be a taxiable replica, why bother with engine authenticity?
I know of one guy who built an extremeley accurate Hurricane replica and powered it with a car engine (a Jag V12). This gave the right number of cylinders, the right sound and enough grunt to fast taxi the aeroplane.
The Jag V12 would fit in the slim nacelles of the Whirlwind better than anything I can think of cos the Peregrines were quite a lot smaller than a Merlin. The Jag engines (£500 each from the local scrapyard) would be a lot cheaper than Merlins (£15-£20k) too
I know of one guy who built an extremeley accurate Hurricane replica and powered it with a car engine (a Jag V12). This gave the right number of cylinders, the right sound and enough grunt to fast taxi the aeroplane.
The Jag V12 would fit in the slim nacelles of the Whirlwind better than anything I can think of cos the Peregrines were quite a lot smaller than a Merlin. The Jag engines (£500 each from the local scrapyard) would be a lot cheaper than Merlins (£15-£20k) too
Tony,
you may find some info in the Public Record office. the following being the files I'm aware of (although I've not got round to looking at them yet!):
AVIA 15/317
(AIRCRAFT: Design and Development: Fighters and Fighter-Bombers (Code 6/3): Proposals for development of Westland Whirlwind fighter 1940)
AIR 2/2821
(AIRCRAFT: Fighter (Code B, 5/6): Whirlwind single-engined single seater day and night fighter: specification F37/35
1935-1944 )
AIR 16/326
(Westland P9 Whirlwind aircraft )
1939 Sept.-1942 Sept.
AVIA 46/122
(Westland Whirlwind )
AVIA 15/2360
(AIRCRAFT: Design and Development: Fighters and Fighter-Bombers (Code 6/3): Consideration of design for production of Westland fighter to specification F37/35
1938-1939 )
The PRO catalogue doesn't tell you what's in the files, so it may have useful things like drawings, or a series of letters that are of no practical benefit but which might be of interest.
Also, there is a book (that you've probably either got or seen, but in case not) Victor Bingham, Whirlwind: The Westland Whirlwhind Fighter (Airlife, 1987) ISBN: 1 85310 004 8. This has appendices giving things like wing area, dihedral, etc, etc.
Hope that this may be of some help; good luck!
you may find some info in the Public Record office. the following being the files I'm aware of (although I've not got round to looking at them yet!):
AVIA 15/317
(AIRCRAFT: Design and Development: Fighters and Fighter-Bombers (Code 6/3): Proposals for development of Westland Whirlwind fighter 1940)
AIR 2/2821
(AIRCRAFT: Fighter (Code B, 5/6): Whirlwind single-engined single seater day and night fighter: specification F37/35
1935-1944 )
AIR 16/326
(Westland P9 Whirlwind aircraft )
1939 Sept.-1942 Sept.
AVIA 46/122
(Westland Whirlwind )
AVIA 15/2360
(AIRCRAFT: Design and Development: Fighters and Fighter-Bombers (Code 6/3): Consideration of design for production of Westland fighter to specification F37/35
1938-1939 )
The PRO catalogue doesn't tell you what's in the files, so it may have useful things like drawings, or a series of letters that are of no practical benefit but which might be of interest.
Also, there is a book (that you've probably either got or seen, but in case not) Victor Bingham, Whirlwind: The Westland Whirlwhind Fighter (Airlife, 1987) ISBN: 1 85310 004 8. This has appendices giving things like wing area, dihedral, etc, etc.
Hope that this may be of some help; good luck!
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Because the difference between the replica, and the flyer, is about 400k Genghis
Such bothersome things as certification , suitable powerplants etc, as the peregrines were not produced in any great quantity , and are extinct.
We did think about building a full scale replica from wood, powered by Orendas or falconer V-12's, but a member of the syndicate pointed out, if we were going to build a wooden flyer, we may as well build a DH103 Hornet from scratch!
Which is also being considered, as the plans are available, and using modern techinques, producing the 2 halves of the fuselage is inexpensive, and a piece of p**s)
Tony
Such bothersome things as certification , suitable powerplants etc, as the peregrines were not produced in any great quantity , and are extinct.
We did think about building a full scale replica from wood, powered by Orendas or falconer V-12's, but a member of the syndicate pointed out, if we were going to build a wooden flyer, we may as well build a DH103 Hornet from scratch!
Which is also being considered, as the plans are available, and using modern techinques, producing the 2 halves of the fuselage is inexpensive, and a piece of p**s)
Tony
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Hornet
Solotk - I seem to remember that when I went to the Mosquito museum they had the concrete former for the Hornet fuselage and I think there was a Merlin for sale recently which was a hornet specific mark
Clive Du Cros' heavily modified Jag engine put out around 400hp. Even in standard form they put out around 250-300hp. More than sufficient for fast taxiing I would have thought
If you were prepared to sacrifice performance and internal originality but maintain the external form couldn't it be built via a PFA Permit with a couple of Rover V8 engines? There must be more bodies who would give time/money to a flying replica than a to a static one even one as worthy as this.
The Rover V8 was used in a Chipmunk once. It looked lovely. Mmm maybe I'll start a thread about that.
If you were prepared to sacrifice performance and internal originality but maintain the external form couldn't it be built via a PFA Permit with a couple of Rover V8 engines? There must be more bodies who would give time/money to a flying replica than a to a static one even one as worthy as this.
The Rover V8 was used in a Chipmunk once. It looked lovely. Mmm maybe I'll start a thread about that.
