Press reports of accident at Duxford 10/07/11

[Brian Abraham]

Just to add to FL's history of the aircraft

(pinched in part from the Mil thread)

A68-192 G-HAEC " Big Beautiful Doll "
Type: CA-18 PR.22
Serial #: A68-192
Construction No: 1517
Delivered 1 AD ex CAC on 08/03/51. Never issued to operational unit. In storage at 1 AD and Tocumwal until sold 23/04/58. Registered VH-FCB 06/11/59 to 17/10/66. Exported to the Phillipines as PI-C651 and later to the UK and flying as G-HAEC.
1951: RAAF
1958: VH-FCB (F.C. Braund)
1961: (Jack McDonald)
1969: PI-C651 Philippines (Prontino Inc.)
1973: crashed on landing, rebuilt using 44-72917 (ex-Phillippine AF P-51). Some records say most of the bits and pieces used in the rebuild came from 44-72917 but the owners elected to keep the Australian identification.
1981: VR-HIU (Hong Kong)
1985: rebuilt "CV H", shipped to UK
1985: G-HAEC, "Ding Hao", "Missy Wong from Hong Kong", "RAAF A68-192"

I remember the early sixties when Jack McDonald used to display the aircraft at airshows in Australia. Painted bright red, and the attached photo does not do it justice.

[pigboat]

Who knows what the Skyraider pilot was thinking? He had just been involved in a collision which he probably thought he had caused, having very nearly crashed himself. Under the circumstances, I reckon my judgement would have been slightly affected. I personally would have done a slow speed handling check at altitude and then not changed configuration, but I wasn't there and didn't see what happened after the collision. And if he didn't, I wouldn't have blamed him.

Dan for what it's worth I agree. I would have observed that part of the right airfoil had departed the aircraft and would have had absolutely no idea what hidden structural damage, if any, had occurred. My cojones aren't big enough to change the aircraft configuration from one that is working to one that I hope will work. I would have landed flapless. 'Course it's all academic isn't it?

Connie that's some story about that Convair. Proof that elbow-bending with the right people can save yer butt.

[DHfan]

I speak as an enthusiast, not a pilot, but in answer to Dan Winterland's point about breaking from a vic, Flying Legends has been going since 1994 I believe. As a two day event with well over 20 aircraft in the Balbo each time, that makes upwards of 250 times the split had been done without incident. That suggests to me that if flown as briefed it works perfectly well.

As briefed is presumably the important bit.

[Heliport]

Perhaps it's time to move on from the flaps/no flaps distraction.

As Dan Winterland says:

What we should be asking is what went wrong

This excellent video by David Taylor (Postfade) includes a slow motion re-play.

Vimeo

H.

[Selfloading]

What went wrong

I was leading the 3rd element in the first section, and as I broke to land, the number two broke a little early and turned in tight so he couldn't see me anymore and he hit me with his wing and damaged my aircraft, and also damaged his own Aircraft

From the pilot of the Mustang.

[Dan Winterland]

''As a two day event with well over 20 aircraft in the Balbo each time, that makes upwards of 250 times the split had been done without incident. That suggests to me that if flown as briefed it works perfectly well.''

DH Fan

I would suggest is that the way is being done with the leader breaking first from a Vic, there is a considerable level of risk. There's a good reason why the standard formation break in many professional organisations (read Air Forces) is done from echelon with the leader breaking first. The leader should always be in view by the wingmen if done like this, therefore it's safe. The fact that this procedure has been done 250 times before without incident is irrelevant. Either they have got away with it until now or one accident in 250 breaks is the average for this procedure. Either way, it's far too high.

This is PPRuNe and we have a tradition of analysing each accident before the dust settles - something which I've tended to avoid. But I'm happy to wager a tenner that when the AAIB report is finally published, it will concentrate on how the break was done and also that there will be a change in the future.

[BOAC]

Actually, Dan, it doesn't matter a fig what you 'break' from - finger, echelon, box, diamond or whatever, as long as it is briefed, understood and properly flown.. The leader CANNOT always be in view of the wingmen, as once he/she 'breaks' then it is up to the next a/c to locate the lead after the break and position accordingly. A vic break leaves 2 and 3 'formating' on each other for a short while and then 3 needs to locate 2 after his break, and avoid (both!) as he did.

I suspect cessnapete in post #78 on the mil forum thread has given us the clue to what triggered the collision. I also read 'suggestions' that not everyone attended all the briefings.

Let's just be thankful that the P51 guy got out and the Skyraider survived too. That latest video shows just how late it was.

[Mike7777777]

The Skyraider is an ugly bugg@r (and none the worse for that), must have one of the highest max take off weights for a single prop aircraft.

[Cacophonix]

Rob Davies' laconic take on the incident and his low altitude bailout. See Selfloading's post

[BOAC]

Anything yet seen from the enquiry?

[VictorGolf]

Just looking at the videos again it is remarkable that the Skyraider completed a roll after the collision, with the outer wing missing. In other video stills the flaps appear to be down on the P-51 after the collision. Would that have been intentional or a result of the damage to the control runs?

[Nopax,thanx]

The engineer from the Skyraider said after the incident that the pilot still had lateral control; amazingly two of the three aileron hinges were still intact(ish) and the aileron itself was all there, albeit a bit bent; so I guess the roll was just the remains of the energy from the manoevre.

The aircraft's still in our hangar awaiting a replacement outer wing so it can go home. We too await the report with interest; shouldn't be long, what with all the evidence and two survivors to interview. Hats off to Rob, even our own pilots could scarcely believe that it was a survivable escape.

[stepwilk]

The Skyraider is an ugly bugg@r (and none the worse for that), must have one of the highest max take off weights for a single prop aircraft.

Not counting jets (F-35, F-105, MiG-27) and turboprops (Tupolev Tu-91), the Spad is exceeded in MTOW only--and only slightly--by the Martin Mauler and the Grumman Guardian. Both of those airplanes were short-lived and relatively unsuccessful operationally, while the Skyraider was a long-lived airplane with a hugely successful combat history. I'd give it the gold for that reason alone.

[Fantome]

These were taken at an airshow at Canberra on 18th April 1959, both of VH-FCB, which was registered to Frederick Christopher Braund, seen here topping up the glycol. The year before Chris paid 300 quid cash to a sergeant at the Tocumwal graveyard and flew her away.

[jindabyne]

Re- breaks.

The leader CANNOT always be in view of the wingmen

I'd argue that usually he SHOULD and that, as Dan suggests, this is why the echelon break is the safe convention. Most others involve either a crossover or out-of-sequence affair which are 'less' safe from close, and normally need specific briefing. That said, I'd acknowledge that for professional teams, any version is acceptable.

Let's just be thankful that the P51 guy got out and the Skyraider survived too

Amen to that!

[sitigeltfel]

Originally Posted by BOAC

Anything yet seen from the enquiry?

AAIB report now out.......

Air Accidents Investigation: P-51D Mustang, D-FBBD and Douglas AD-4N Skyraider, F-AZDP

[Nopax,thanx]

Well, the report is much what we expected to see, although it is at variance with one French version of events....

PEGASE.TV • Consulter le sujet - incident à Duxford

The belief from the other side of la Manche would appear to be that Rob broke, then flattened out and slowed, which led to him being not where the Skyraider pilot expected he would find him; still looking to his left and turning, he had the P-51 out of view, possibly in the sun, and the rest is history.

Now, I'm not going to say either way, as I was groundcrew for the show, and I also know the guys from la Ferte very well; this is just to add to the information that is already out there.