Nigger's grave (Merged)

[DC10RealMan]

I have just got back from the RAF Memorial at Runnymede having put some flowers there in memory of the aircrew of 96 RAF bombers who failed to return from the Nuremburg Raid which happened 65 years ago tonight. I always put the same message "To the memory of all the lads of RAF Bomber Command 1939-1945 on this the 65th anniversary of the Nuremburg Raid 30-31 March 1944. Thank you for my future from an "After the War kid"
Every year I put the flowers next to Leslie Francis (Darky) Gilkes name.

[sled dog]

mtanzo, do you wish to re-write history ? The dog WAS called Nigger, fact. I seem to recall that my mother had a rather grand coat, which ,according to her, was "Nigger Brown " in colour. Different times, different phraseology.

[stepwilk]

I think part of the problem is that most posters here are British, or at least "Empire." They simply don't understand the resonance of the word in the United States. It's as though I, an American, called Prince Charles a bloody ******. To us, "bloody" is what happens to your handkerchief when you get a nosebleed, and ****** is...well, utterly meaningless.

Edit: Funny! I see that pprune's software has even censored the w-word I used.

[forget]

Every year I put the flowers next to Leslie Francis (Darky) Gilkes name.

Here's Darky's one way trip. From Lost Bombers - World War II Lost Bombers

Lancaster ED493. 9 Squadron. Hamburg. 2nd/3rd August 1943

Airborne 2236hrs 2 Aug 43 from Bardney. Believed shot down by a night-fighter (Ofw Karl-Heinz Scherfling, 1V./NGJ1) and crashed 0333 into the sea NW of Bergen aan Zee on the Dutch coast. Three now lie in Bergen op Zoom War Cemetry; Sgt Reid is buried in Texel in Den Burgh General Cemetery and three have no known graves. Sgt Gilkes came from Siparia, Trinidad. Sgt D.Mackenzie KIA Sgt R.H.Jones KIA P/O T. McCall KIA Sgt R.Reid KIA Sgt G.A.Filleul KIA Sgt L.F.Gilkes KIA Sgt W.M.Welsh KIA "

[Opssys]

If Nigger's gravestone has been removed for 'Politically Correct' reasons, then this is a minor example of the ever increasing airbrushing and sanitizing of history by the PC brigade and is to say the least niggardly.*

Whilst I consider the usage of Nigger as extremely offensive when used either to describe, or worse denigrate a person today, but it is an unchangeable fact that it was in general use both historically and up until relatively recent times.

From recently hearing a conversation in West London accents where the word was used extensively, it appears that providing you are of West Indian descent, then using the term is perfectly acceptable even in the 21st Century, but now it depends on who is using it!

*Niggardly - Mean, Ungenerous, first used 12th centrury and predates words such as Negro by a least a century and a half. therefore should not cause offence (except apparently in an office in New York, but that is maybe an urban myth).

[Double Zero]

Upkeep etc

Wet Wet Wet,

I'd be very grateful if you would explain the " reverse engineering by the Germans ".

I've often wondered why the weapon wasn't used more by the UK thereafter - wasn't it the Highball on Mosquito's ? Stand to be corrected.

I knew about that, but carrying them in tandem is a new one on me, and the airframe C of G / engineering must have been very much on the limits ?

As for the Germans, did they ever actually get such a thing operational or even to testing status ?

Apologies for hitting with several questions at once, but you have me intrigued !

DZ

[PPRuNe Pop]

The quest for name justifications is as useless as a chocolate fireguard. We each have names, and give our pets names. IMHO it has got nothing to with the pseudo army of do-gooders and they should get a life.

Nigger, the 617 Squadron mascot, is a fact. It is history and no one has the power to change it.

[DennisK]

PC changes

I'm sure many ppruners will be aware of the Fawlty Towers episode where our dear Major refers to the relative definitions of our Asian and West Indian cousins. I'm just waiting for the next re-run to see how long it has taken the Beeb to remove what they consider the offending words.

Roll on our PC cousins!

DennisK

[Winco]

I watched a film or programme the other night, where nearly all of the characters were all black people. In it, every one of them called each other 'Nigger' at some stage or other. I also remember watching a black stand-up comedian a while ago who again, freely used the N word constantly.

I too now find it offensive to refer to black people by that word, although I do remember the time (not so long ago) when it was common practice, even in the RAF.

That said, we must not ever let the PC brigade try to change and re-write the course of history. As PPrune Pop says, Nigger (the dog) really did exist, and we must never lose sight of that and other such matters.

I am extremely saddened if the dogs headstone has been removed, for whatever reason. Scampton, 617 Sqn and the raids are real facts. Their place in history is secured and will live on for ever, but things must not be changed to accomodate the PC brigade who, all too often, seem to be a bunch of white people, hell-bent on forcing their beliefs on others!

I don't know many black people, but I do know a few and none of them give a toss frankly. They understand that the war happened and things were/have been said which at the time were perfectly fine, but perhaps not so now. I just wish the PC brigade would find something a little more constructive to do with their lives rarther than trying to convince the world that some things didn't happen, by deleting it from view.

Winco

[Double Zero]

Well,

as schools don't have 'blackboards' any more * but now have 'chalkboards' nothing will surprise me; in the town still hopefully a distance from me, one is faced on every visit by groups of let's say ethnic ( Asian ) youths.

I can say from personal experience that they are much more likely to break into one's car & pinch the CD player than engage in combat.

You're much more likely to run into physical trouble if faced with a few drunken white slobs, or ( relatively unlikely there ) Afro-English types spoiling for a fight.

I once had the misfortune to have a job in that town - Crawley ; one evening our company's back door was blocked by a top-of the-range Porsche 911 GT3 or similar ( I'm not a particular petrol-head ), and was amazed to see a guy who must have been under 20yrs old get out - happened to be Asian in appearance.

When I mentioned this, as in how the hell did he insure it, to the old hands, they all replied " Oh that's this patch's drug dealer "...

Well known apparently, even down to his schedule, but no police action.

I suppose it was out of their remit, as in not a law abiding motorist, or a chum of the chief constable's who requires personal info' from the central computer to sell on - I reckon that scheme is one of the most disgusting things I've ever heard of.

-------------------

* Even in my day, wipe dry-boards & marker pens were taking over

[ZH875]

Originally Posted by Winco

I don't know many black people,

Neither do I, but I do know many BROWN people, yet they insist on being known as Black, WHY?


Who gives a what colour people are, as long as they live by the rules of the country they have chosen to live in.

[DennisK]

Minor thread drift

Aplogies for hogging two consecutive posts, but just thinking over the 617 story, it was in 1994 that as a rotary man, I picked up Richard Todd from Crawley (where he was appearing at the Hawthe theatre) to fly him to Derwent Water where the 50th anniversary of the 'Dams Raid' was to be celebrated.

I flew Mr Todd on his own low-level 'Dambuster Run' towards the dam at the required 60 ft ... but in nothing more adventurous than the Bell Jetranger. (sorry I don't know how to post the picture.) Later, on the dam parapet, I met one of the Aussie crew who had flown on the original raid. The 'Reds' put on their usual fantastic display which was followed by a Lancaster run and a Tornado which I estimated at all of 400 knots as it whipped over the dam. 'Twas a gorgeous sunny day and it was estimated that some 100,000 bods were picknicking on the hills of the Derwent Valley. A special occasion that only the Brits do really well.

Topic drift .. with all the Chief Techs on here ... who can tell me the functions of the 'Orange Putter' and 'Blue Satin' as fitted to the Canberra B2? I'm commisioned to write an adjacent article and it would be nice to get things right.

Final story. Following my February LOOP article regarding what became known as 'the Bates ejection' following a Canberra B2 tail plane runaway, (oddly tho' Bates didn't actually eject - he made a standard bale-out through the escape hatch) ... the man himself, Eric Bates now 80 and living in Oz, e-mailed me to say how my story had taken him back nearly sixty years. The power of the internet! To my knowledge only two pilots ever managed to evacuate the Canberra that way. Both, being Eric Bates and 'Gusty' Gale will be at the Hendon Canberra reunion in May.

Take care all,

Dennis Kenyon.

[Double Zero]

PPrune Pop,

That's the obvious snag though, isn't it?!

We allow free speech here, and I wouldn't have it any other way; hopefully anyone of any colour if saying anything too stupid will just be regarded a prat.

Unfortunately this arrangement is not reciprocal.

[forget]

'Blue Satin'. Green I think. Doppler Nav, Ground Speed and Drift.

Orange Putter - Tail Warning Radar.

[BEagle]

....as schools don't have 'blackboards' any more * but now have 'chalkboards'

First came across this nonsense during CFS groundschool. The humourless female edyookashun hossifer insisted on it....

As there were no 'ethnic minorities' to offend, just this silly woman, we decided it would become the 'w*gboard'..... She nearly had a pink fit; obviously had never come across aircrew taking the pi$$ before!

But for total PC-lunacy, you have to go to the USAF. The F-15 community were told that they weren't allowed to say 'head-to-head' or 'outside the box' as it might be offensive to females....

We told them that this made it impossible to refer to our sausage-munching chums by their oft-used nickname....and also pretended to complain about their use of a certain word which was highly offensive to our female officers. Of course, being Spams, they were horrified and asked which word was causing the offence.

So we told them....."Bush".

Only then did they realise it was a wind-up.

[goudie]

Green Satin it was Forget

I often flew in the Canberra jump seat. ISTR there was a small handle one had to turn prior to kicking the door out. Eric and Gusty were lucky I think!

Does one still get 'black-balled from the Club these days?

[Once_an_Erk]

DennisK -

Blue Silk OR Green Satin.

Blue Silk was an early attempt at sideways looking radar that produced a sort of roller map etched onto heat sensitive paper - same sort of stuff used in early fax machines. i.e. it was used as a recce device. It was very rare it worked and it quietly went away. I never saw it myself, but when I was first posted to 12 we still had 2 old B2s that had the equipment racks for it in the back hatch.

Green Satin - Doppler navigation equip. In the Canberra the antenna system was in a bay twixt No 1 Engine and the wingroot with a dielectric panel cover. The Tx/Rx and Tracker (computer) cans were in the back hatch. It worked much better in Canberras than it ever did in Vulcans (even when the Vs were upgraded to Mk2) Possibly due to the fact that Vulcans had a similar layout in the form of an offset aerial system and a very, very long cable that carried analog computational signals to the Nav's display in the cabin. This cable (although) shielded, took a tortuos route over the engines, through the bomb and nosewheel bays to get there - picking up extraeneous "noise" on the way.

Orange Putter. Tail Warning x-band radar. The radar head formed the tailcone of the aircraft - (also fitted to Valiants and early Mk1 Vulcans and Victors). In the Canberra, the pilot had a tiny 'scope just under the coaming at about 11 o'clock. It represented a sort of rear view mirror with any returns appearing as a blip in the relevant quarter. At 1000 yds the blip grew wings - unsurprisingly known as "wings range". It was sarcastically suggested that it was so useless that it might as well have been wired up to the ejector seats as by the time it gave any warning you were done for anyway. There was also audio alerts fed into the headset - these were invariably turned off because of spurious fales warnings. Our aircraft were using LABS attacks and through the fullness of time almost all the aeroplanes managed to throw the Orange Putter radar heads down the range when the high g pull-ups became too much for the 4 bolts holding the thing on. They were replaced at first, but this became considered a fruitless excercise and eventually all our squadron aircraft but 2 had aluminium tali cones. The space left by the missing electronics was usefully employed as a stash for duty free fags and cigars on return from sunspots in Luqa and Idris.

In short - Orange Putter was junk.

Edit: Thinking back, the Green Satin Panel was outboard of No 1. - couldn't have been inboard as the wheel was there.

2nd Edit: I was right first time - Green Satin panel was aft of the wheel well. (just googled up an old drawing)

[Once_an_Erk]

Clarification of last post.

Just had no2 grandson rummage through the attic for my early course notes.

Blue Silk was a development of Green Satin for slower stuff - think they had it on Shacks.

Blue Shadow was the sideways looking spy stuff that made maps on bog rolls.

[Once_an_Erk]

Wet Wet Wet -

The backspin was to make it cling to the dam wall as it sank - thereby ensuring maximum shockwaves into the concrete at detonation - spinning also gave it a certain gyroscopic directional stability effect. The speed/height combo determined the number of bounces you got over 600 yards. (or so it said on the blurb on the Scampton Ops block montage)

[Once_an_Erk]

Beagle, I completely agree Labs are normally soft as wet mud, BUT the landlady of the Royal Oak at Mareham-le-Fen had a pair of blacks called Peggy & Suzy.
Peggy was quite capable of licking her victims to death - Suzy would have your hand off as soon as look at you.