Nigger's grave (Merged)
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To be honest I can't see why there is so much fuss about 'Nigger's' grave. Is there a memorial at Scampton for the airmen who lost their lives that fateful night? If not, there should be.
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Beagle - I dunno whether they did bury it or dumped it - my testimony is purely hearsay - (as was the Ch Tech's) - but it rang true at the time to all who heard it. - Unpopular CO, nasty dog, can't imagine there was much compassion going at the time.
I Garey - There was no fence in my day - just the slab. - The position of the plot in your photos is exactly where I remember it. If you look at the hangar on your first picture, you see a second floor office. Well, just out of shot to the left is the hangar entrance and to the left of that is a similar second floor office. - That was Gibson's (& all subsequent squadron commanders).
Goudie. - The events of that May night are well recorded at Scampton - and with due reverence. The upstairs dining room of the Airmen's Mess is where the full crew briefing was done. There is a plaque on the wall at the entrance describing this - the film makers got that bit right when they showed all the crews streaming into the building. The closing shot that shows Gibson talking to Wallis and then walking away into the sunrise is a bit iffy - what they would be doing down there on the domestic site is anybody's guess. In that shot, Gibson is walking towards the hangar we are discussing. As for other records - the Squadron had (I expect it still does) a Book of Remembrance printed on vellum with the names of all the men who were lost throughout WWII. Naturally those on the Dams Raid are the first entries.
It wasn't until the late 60's that the tech details of Upkeep (the bomb/mine) were declassified. When that happened there was a huge display mounted in the foyer to the Ops Block showing what it looked like, some of Wallis' hand notes and sketches and the actual operational order, signed by Harris, ordering the operation to proceed. The casualty list was also posted on the montage - no words were needed there, it spoke for itself. So be assured, Scampton hadn't forgot what happened and guarded its heritage jealously. (at least it did in my time).
Dan - Agreed, just the stone slab. But it did say more than just Nigger - there was definitely a bit about it being Gibson's dog and what was happening that night. I can't remember the text at this distance - after all it was 45 years ago that I last saw it.
You can actually see the grave on google-earth - zoom into the second hangar from the west and you'll spot it on the airfield side.
Edit : I've just seen the link on the earlier post that takes you to the Scampton photo album. Yep, the picture of the grave stone with the text on it is the one I saw and (however vaguely) remember.
I Garey - There was no fence in my day - just the slab. - The position of the plot in your photos is exactly where I remember it. If you look at the hangar on your first picture, you see a second floor office. Well, just out of shot to the left is the hangar entrance and to the left of that is a similar second floor office. - That was Gibson's (& all subsequent squadron commanders).
Goudie. - The events of that May night are well recorded at Scampton - and with due reverence. The upstairs dining room of the Airmen's Mess is where the full crew briefing was done. There is a plaque on the wall at the entrance describing this - the film makers got that bit right when they showed all the crews streaming into the building. The closing shot that shows Gibson talking to Wallis and then walking away into the sunrise is a bit iffy - what they would be doing down there on the domestic site is anybody's guess. In that shot, Gibson is walking towards the hangar we are discussing. As for other records - the Squadron had (I expect it still does) a Book of Remembrance printed on vellum with the names of all the men who were lost throughout WWII. Naturally those on the Dams Raid are the first entries.
It wasn't until the late 60's that the tech details of Upkeep (the bomb/mine) were declassified. When that happened there was a huge display mounted in the foyer to the Ops Block showing what it looked like, some of Wallis' hand notes and sketches and the actual operational order, signed by Harris, ordering the operation to proceed. The casualty list was also posted on the montage - no words were needed there, it spoke for itself. So be assured, Scampton hadn't forgot what happened and guarded its heritage jealously. (at least it did in my time).
Dan - Agreed, just the stone slab. But it did say more than just Nigger - there was definitely a bit about it being Gibson's dog and what was happening that night. I can't remember the text at this distance - after all it was 45 years ago that I last saw it.
You can actually see the grave on google-earth - zoom into the second hangar from the west and you'll spot it on the airfield side.
Edit : I've just seen the link on the earlier post that takes you to the Scampton photo album. Yep, the picture of the grave stone with the text on it is the one I saw and (however vaguely) remember.
Last edited by Once_an_Erk; 26th Mar 2009 at 22:23.
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You've got your dates scrambled, Blacksheep.
1968 was the 25th Anniversary and on that anniversary the Squadron was presented with new colours by H.M. The Queen (accompanied by the Duke of E.).
This was my second tour at Scampton, and I narrowly avoided that parade by being on QRA that week.
The Queen lunched in the Officers Mess that day but The Duke of Ed went down to the Airmens Mess and chose steak at the servery and sat down with some of the lads and tucked in. - Great PR!
The 617 hangar had its floor washed with pure avgas (smoking was banned throughout the camp all day). Then they painted it grey and put the display aircraft in there. One Vulcan, one Victor and one Canberra. The chippies knocked up a walk up ramp into the Victor (one couldn't expect HM to climb the ladder into the Vulcan).
There was talk of the party visiting QRA but it was decided the HTP fuel in the Blue Steels was too much of a hazard, so they stayed away. Instead they watched a 4 ship scramble off the ORP.
After the Royal Party left there was an anniversary "Do" in the Officers Mess and Barnes Wallis may well have been a guest, but I never heard of him turning up at the hangar - a buzz like that would have been all around the station like lightning.
The Sgt's Mess also had a thrash paid for by 617 and the Airmen had a Dance in the NAAFI with a (quite) famous pop group (who I can't remember) as the star turn. - Again paid for by Squadron funds.
The 50th Anniversary was 1993 - I was out of the service by then and I would have thought Barnes Wallis was dead so I don't think he turned up at 2 hangar then, either.
1968 was the 25th Anniversary and on that anniversary the Squadron was presented with new colours by H.M. The Queen (accompanied by the Duke of E.).
This was my second tour at Scampton, and I narrowly avoided that parade by being on QRA that week.
The Queen lunched in the Officers Mess that day but The Duke of Ed went down to the Airmens Mess and chose steak at the servery and sat down with some of the lads and tucked in. - Great PR!
The 617 hangar had its floor washed with pure avgas (smoking was banned throughout the camp all day). Then they painted it grey and put the display aircraft in there. One Vulcan, one Victor and one Canberra. The chippies knocked up a walk up ramp into the Victor (one couldn't expect HM to climb the ladder into the Vulcan).
There was talk of the party visiting QRA but it was decided the HTP fuel in the Blue Steels was too much of a hazard, so they stayed away. Instead they watched a 4 ship scramble off the ORP.
After the Royal Party left there was an anniversary "Do" in the Officers Mess and Barnes Wallis may well have been a guest, but I never heard of him turning up at the hangar - a buzz like that would have been all around the station like lightning.
The Sgt's Mess also had a thrash paid for by 617 and the Airmen had a Dance in the NAAFI with a (quite) famous pop group (who I can't remember) as the star turn. - Again paid for by Squadron funds.
The 50th Anniversary was 1993 - I was out of the service by then and I would have thought Barnes Wallis was dead so I don't think he turned up at 2 hangar then, either.
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1968 was the 25th Anniversary
The Royal Air Force in which I served was founded on 1st April 1918 and the 50th anniversary took place on 1st April 1968. Although I served at RAF Waddington at the time, I was at Scampton on that day with the Pipes and Drums of No.1 Group, Bomber Command. In attendance as guest of honour was the Right Honourable Denis Healey MP, who was at the time Minister of Defence. Being attracted by our highland dress, Barnes Wallace stopped a group of we bandsmen for a chat, during which he mentioned that he had caused a panic among the VIP guests when he disappeared - by going to a different 617 Sqn Hangar to the one in which they had gathered.
Perhaps his memory was scrambled, but I doubt it; he was an extremely sharp fellow, definitely not the bumbling old professor type portrayed in the movie.
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Ah. we're talking different anniversaries.
I'm talking about the Dams Raid anniversary - which I assumed was germane to this thread.
I missed the RAF's birthday party, being in Tengah staging a Blue Ranger aircraft through to Oz for Blue Steel test firing.
I'm talking about the Dams Raid anniversary - which I assumed was germane to this thread.
I missed the RAF's birthday party, being in Tengah staging a Blue Ranger aircraft through to Oz for Blue Steel test firing.
Barnes WALLIS (correct spelling) died late '70s I think. I remember providing radar service to the 617 Vulcan which did the flypast at his funeral (Leatherhead?).
About 1963 I was still at school and we had a visit to Weybridge/Brooklands where we were ushered into the great man's office in the old race control tower (now part of the museum) and were told he still came to work a couple of days a week. One of his 'Swallow' VG models was on display there.
About 1963 I was still at school and we had a visit to Weybridge/Brooklands where we were ushered into the great man's office in the old race control tower (now part of the museum) and were told he still came to work a couple of days a week. One of his 'Swallow' VG models was on display there.
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Laurence, The original plaque from Nigger's grave is at Woodhall Spa, next to the 617 Dam Busters Memorial.
Blacksheep. Could it be that the 1968 ceremony of which you speak was the Stand Down of Bomber Command. I have photographs here of Barnes Wallis, Leonard Cheshire, Arthur Harris and Dennis Healey, all there on that day.
PS. Stop Press! Above is almost certainly correct. See http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafwaddington/...2F265256F8.pdf
where it says of Waddington Pipe Band - Page 26 -
1968 was a very significant year, it was the 50th anniversary of the formation of the Royal Air Force and Bomber Command was amalgamated with Fighter Command to form Strike Command. Denis Healy, the then Labour Defence Secretary, visited Scampton to review the Bomber Command stand down ceremony in April. Other guests included an ex Scampton airman Group Captain Leonord Cheshire VC. Denis, (fresh from cancelling the RAF’s TSR 2 project) inspected the band outside the Officers Mess.
Blacksheep. Could it be that the 1968 ceremony of which you speak was the Stand Down of Bomber Command. I have photographs here of Barnes Wallis, Leonard Cheshire, Arthur Harris and Dennis Healey, all there on that day.
PS. Stop Press! Above is almost certainly correct. See http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafwaddington/...2F265256F8.pdf
where it says of Waddington Pipe Band - Page 26 -
1968 was a very significant year, it was the 50th anniversary of the formation of the Royal Air Force and Bomber Command was amalgamated with Fighter Command to form Strike Command. Denis Healy, the then Labour Defence Secretary, visited Scampton to review the Bomber Command stand down ceremony in April. Other guests included an ex Scampton airman Group Captain Leonord Cheshire VC. Denis, (fresh from cancelling the RAF’s TSR 2 project) inspected the band outside the Officers Mess.
Last edited by forget; 27th Mar 2009 at 11:56.
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Erk Thanks for the info. I can't recall any such memorial during my time there. Good to know though.
I was on 617 '58-60, during which, the Queen Mum presented the Squadron Colours.
Bags of bullsh!t as you can imagine with the usual parades. I was on the Guard Of Honour, which I quite enjoyed at the time.
In the hangar there was a complete mockup of the the dams raid with a Lanc flying across the water on a wire then a puff of smoke and the 'dam' burst. Nigger's grave was tarted up too, for the occasion.
There were no airworthy Lancs in the UK at the time so a RCAF Lanc was flown over to do the flypast. Four of the Lanc aircrew were corporals and no arrangements had been made to entertain them (The RAF assumed the NCO aircrew would be at least Sergeants) so a few of us young corporals were given a wedge of money and ordered to take them into Lincoln on a couple of nights for meals and drinks. A good time was had by all!
I was on 617 '58-60, during which, the Queen Mum presented the Squadron Colours.
Bags of bullsh!t as you can imagine with the usual parades. I was on the Guard Of Honour, which I quite enjoyed at the time.
In the hangar there was a complete mockup of the the dams raid with a Lanc flying across the water on a wire then a puff of smoke and the 'dam' burst. Nigger's grave was tarted up too, for the occasion.
There were no airworthy Lancs in the UK at the time so a RCAF Lanc was flown over to do the flypast. Four of the Lanc aircrew were corporals and no arrangements had been made to entertain them (The RAF assumed the NCO aircrew would be at least Sergeants) so a few of us young corporals were given a wedge of money and ordered to take them into Lincoln on a couple of nights for meals and drinks. A good time was had by all!
forget, Healey was hardly 'fresh', I would think.
Wislon's apology for a government murdered the TSR2 on 1965 - not long after that idiot Mountbottom had stuck his knife in the project, spreading doubt about its viability wherever anyone would listen to him.
Wislon's apology for a government murdered the TSR2 on 1965 - not long after that idiot Mountbottom had stuck his knife in the project, spreading doubt about its viability wherever anyone would listen to him.
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forget: I should have asked you right from the start! So that is the explanation! But it looks terrible with just the chiselled surface left behind. Why was it considered necessary to do this?
Laurence
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BEagle - I shall go to my grave convinced that Healey, Wilson & a few others of that gang were not only "fellow travellers" but on the Kremlin payroll!
Wilson was probably honeytrap compromised when he was on the British Aid mission to Moscow for the last couple of years of the War.
He worked for Stafford Cripps - and look what a traitorous bustard he was!
Yanks with a sense of history (and a long memory) (yes, I know, a rare species) have never forgiven us for him giving the Russians the Nene engine - which made the Mig 15 possible and all the carnage that caused among the US B-29s in Korea. Fortunately we had already given the cousins the secret of the all-flying tailplane (which made the F-86 superior).
Wilson was probably honeytrap compromised when he was on the British Aid mission to Moscow for the last couple of years of the War.
He worked for Stafford Cripps - and look what a traitorous bustard he was!
Yanks with a sense of history (and a long memory) (yes, I know, a rare species) have never forgiven us for him giving the Russians the Nene engine - which made the Mig 15 possible and all the carnage that caused among the US B-29s in Korea. Fortunately we had already given the cousins the secret of the all-flying tailplane (which made the F-86 superior).
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Once an Erk - re your post 23, I'm pretty sure that on another dambuster thread, a more knowledgeable chap than I stated that they used RAF Hemswell for the filming..........It's 4 hangars are of the same type(c?) and approximate layout.
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Yep, Hemswell is very similar to Scampton, Hangars and layout-wise. I wouldn't be surprised if they did do some filming there - it was much later that Hemswell became a Thor base.
I do know that the sequence shots of the Lancs taking off in 3 ship formation was done at Coningsby (it was the only place they could find that had a long enought stretch of grass without any giveaway concrete in the background (Scampton was a grass field when the raid took place).
The scenes - supposedly at Reculver - where they watched the tests (failing) were done on the sand dunes at the Wainfleet bombing range (Just outside Skegness)
The scenes of the crews going into the briefing was most definitely the Scampton airmen's mess - Hemswell wasn't that much of a Scampton twin. The final scene shows Gibson and Wallis just a few steps up the road from the Scampton airmen's mess entrance - alongside SHQ. -Again definitely Scampton.
There were two scenes I wondered about. One was where the Lancs are being delivered and you see them taxiing up the peritrack past a large black hangar - There was such a hangar at Scampton - it was taken over and used by MT as a garage - but the topography seemed wrong - Around there Scampton is almost as flat as a billiard board and there seemed to be rising ground around that hangar in the film. Then there were the scenes of the crews waiting for transport out to the aircraft. I suppose it could have been shot outside the Scampton hangars, but something felt wrong about it - couldn't put my finger on it, just didn't have a familiar feel to it.
I do know that the sequence shots of the Lancs taking off in 3 ship formation was done at Coningsby (it was the only place they could find that had a long enought stretch of grass without any giveaway concrete in the background (Scampton was a grass field when the raid took place).
The scenes - supposedly at Reculver - where they watched the tests (failing) were done on the sand dunes at the Wainfleet bombing range (Just outside Skegness)
The scenes of the crews going into the briefing was most definitely the Scampton airmen's mess - Hemswell wasn't that much of a Scampton twin. The final scene shows Gibson and Wallis just a few steps up the road from the Scampton airmen's mess entrance - alongside SHQ. -Again definitely Scampton.
There were two scenes I wondered about. One was where the Lancs are being delivered and you see them taxiing up the peritrack past a large black hangar - There was such a hangar at Scampton - it was taken over and used by MT as a garage - but the topography seemed wrong - Around there Scampton is almost as flat as a billiard board and there seemed to be rising ground around that hangar in the film. Then there were the scenes of the crews waiting for transport out to the aircraft. I suppose it could have been shot outside the Scampton hangars, but something felt wrong about it - couldn't put my finger on it, just didn't have a familiar feel to it.
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Hemswell it was. See below - History of Skeggy. 
I'd give you my own History of Skeggy, hot summer of '64 out of Coningsby ....... then again, perhaps not. 
Dam Busters Filmed at Skegness | Official Skegness History Website
I'd give you my own History of Skeggy, hot summer of '64 out of Coningsby ....... then again, perhaps not. Dam Busters Filmed at Skegness | Official Skegness History Website
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Thanks for that, Forget.
Gibraltar Point at Skeggy is the North Eastern tip of the Wainfleet Range - as I'm sure you know being Coningsby orientated.
Just for the hell of it I watched the Daily Mail DVD this afternoon (hadn't seen the film for a long time) and thinking "Hemswell" a lot dropped into place.
The outside of the hangars waiting for transport still bothered me - it looked wrong and after a few re-runs and frame freezes I was more convinced than ever that it wasn't Scampton. (Just to be picky, they were lounging around outside 3 Hangar - not 2 Hangar {617s}) . All the shots of the aircraft out on the field being serviced, bombed up etc also had "wrong" backgrounds - it wasn't Scampton.
And a final nit-pick. One shot showed .50 Calibre belts of ammo going into the back of what looked suspiciously like a Lincoln.
So I'll settle for Hemswell for a lot of the outdoor airfield shots.
Gibraltar Point at Skeggy is the North Eastern tip of the Wainfleet Range - as I'm sure you know being Coningsby orientated.
Just for the hell of it I watched the Daily Mail DVD this afternoon (hadn't seen the film for a long time) and thinking "Hemswell" a lot dropped into place.
The outside of the hangars waiting for transport still bothered me - it looked wrong and after a few re-runs and frame freezes I was more convinced than ever that it wasn't Scampton. (Just to be picky, they were lounging around outside 3 Hangar - not 2 Hangar {617s}) . All the shots of the aircraft out on the field being serviced, bombed up etc also had "wrong" backgrounds - it wasn't Scampton.
And a final nit-pick. One shot showed .50 Calibre belts of ammo going into the back of what looked suspiciously like a Lincoln.
So I'll settle for Hemswell for a lot of the outdoor airfield shots.
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The book and the film didn't really tell you much, other than it was sort of round and bounced along the water. The trick was to give it back-spin and get the dynamics of speed and height for release spot on.
Once you've seen one (they've got one at Brooklands, RAF MUseum, Cosford and probably elsewhere) and you figure out the spin trick it is all so bloody obvious how it worked - but like everything else that is beautiful in its simplicity, somebody had to think it up in the first place, so everyone else could say "I could've done that!" - Think catseyes. And, of course, Upkeep needed a decent grasp of maths.
One of the aircraft that went in en-route didn't explode and the Germans had the whole thing reverse engineered in a couple of weeks. They even improved the design by fitting it up with rockets to put the spin on. I've seen a film of that one being tested and, oh boy, did it zing along the water.
Why they were never developed for anti-shipping use I don't know - maybe some forummers can enlighten us.
Once you've seen one (they've got one at Brooklands, RAF MUseum, Cosford and probably elsewhere) and you figure out the spin trick it is all so bloody obvious how it worked - but like everything else that is beautiful in its simplicity, somebody had to think it up in the first place, so everyone else could say "I could've done that!" - Think catseyes. And, of course, Upkeep needed a decent grasp of maths.
One of the aircraft that went in en-route didn't explode and the Germans had the whole thing reverse engineered in a couple of weeks. They even improved the design by fitting it up with rockets to put the spin on. I've seen a film of that one being tested and, oh boy, did it zing along the water.
Why they were never developed for anti-shipping use I don't know - maybe some forummers can enlighten us.
If you look at the scenes with aircraft in the far background, the Lincoln's 'Bay Windows' are evident.
