Victor cockpit visibility?
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Not sure about the inside/out view, but for the spectator, you have to admit, the Victor was the most aesthetic of the 3, both in the air and on the ground
Old Ned
Would that be the same airshow and the same Raymond Baxter they wheeled out of the hangar to comment on the Jaguar display - when in fact it was an F111?
Old Ned
Would that be the same airshow and the same Raymond Baxter they wheeled out of the hangar to comment on the Jaguar display - when in fact it was an F111?
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great display aircraft but having been involved with all three, consider it to have been the least use operationally of the trio.
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Art Field, do not duck down Sir.I to was privileged to fly all three. I will stand shoulder to shoulder with you.
I enjoyed the Valiant, loved the Victor and thought the Vulcan was overated.
I enjoyed the Valiant, loved the Victor and thought the Vulcan was overated.
Arters, are your comments directed towards the airframes per se, or their suitability for the role in which you flew them?
I don't doubt that the Victor was a better tanker (except, perhaps, from the receiver's point of view) than the Vulcan - but as a reasonably agile low level bomber, the Vulcan beat the pants off that Handley Page device!
The Valiant was only ever an 'interim' solution for the V-force.
I don't doubt that the Victor was a better tanker (except, perhaps, from the receiver's point of view) than the Vulcan - but as a reasonably agile low level bomber, the Vulcan beat the pants off that Handley Page device!
The Valiant was only ever an 'interim' solution for the V-force.
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Old Hairy, thanks for your support, glad not to be alone.
Beags. I was thinking in the wider sense than as just Tankers, both the Valiant and Victor were used productively long term in multi roles as well as Main Force. The Vulcans were concentrated on the Nuclear side and perhaps a little of a luxury when the Navy took that role. I have not forgotten The Falklands nor the subsequent small Tanker fleet.
Beags. I was thinking in the wider sense than as just Tankers, both the Valiant and Victor were used productively long term in multi roles as well as Main Force. The Vulcans were concentrated on the Nuclear side and perhaps a little of a luxury when the Navy took that role. I have not forgotten The Falklands nor the subsequent small Tanker fleet.
Very true. But with the demise of the Valiant, the need to introduce further Victor Mk1 tankers became an imperative. Then the Mk2 saga of politics and defence cuts, Blue Steel and Skybolt pretty well sealed the fate of the Victor as a bomber.
I understand that the original HP design for a Mk2 Victor tanker was rather better than the Woodford design for converting B2s to K2s?
As for the nuclear role of the Vulcan post-68, I don't know how much emphasis was given to the secondary conventional role in later years? Certainly on 35 we didn't have the role - instead our secondary role was the boredom of boat-spotting in the tedious MRR role. I suspect that the defence chiefs weren't quite so 'purple' in those days - which probably helped to maintain the RAF's strategic bombing capability until it was thown away with the demise of the Vulcan post-82.
At its peak numerical strength in Dec 62-Apr 63, the UK's deterrent force consisted of the V-force with no less than 22 squadrons of aircraft - and 20 Thor missile bases each with 3 missile pads.
Whereas today.......
At least we got to fly some pretty iconic aircraft, Arters!
I understand that the original HP design for a Mk2 Victor tanker was rather better than the Woodford design for converting B2s to K2s?
As for the nuclear role of the Vulcan post-68, I don't know how much emphasis was given to the secondary conventional role in later years? Certainly on 35 we didn't have the role - instead our secondary role was the boredom of boat-spotting in the tedious MRR role. I suspect that the defence chiefs weren't quite so 'purple' in those days - which probably helped to maintain the RAF's strategic bombing capability until it was thown away with the demise of the Vulcan post-82.
At its peak numerical strength in Dec 62-Apr 63, the UK's deterrent force consisted of the V-force with no less than 22 squadrons of aircraft - and 20 Thor missile bases each with 3 missile pads.
Whereas today.......
At least we got to fly some pretty iconic aircraft, Arters!
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Seeing out ...
Of the three V-bombers, the (pilots') visibility out of the Victor was far and away the best - glazing in front and to the sides as well as overhead. The other two were "like flying my mum-in-law's upstairs flat through the letter-box" ...
in the upper-air role for which it was designed, the Victor was great - if it got its wheels up after take-off: the early Mk.1s, at least, had things called "tip-hooks" to catch the bogies as they tilted upwards before retraction, but they didn't always catch properly, or the micro-switches didn't "make", so then came plenty of time going round in circles to get down to max. landing weight (and yes, a gentle touch & go didn't work ...).
B O R I N G ...
in the upper-air role for which it was designed, the Victor was great - if it got its wheels up after take-off: the early Mk.1s, at least, had things called "tip-hooks" to catch the bogies as they tilted upwards before retraction, but they didn't always catch properly, or the micro-switches didn't "make", so then came plenty of time going round in circles to get down to max. landing weight (and yes, a gentle touch & go didn't work ...).
B O R I N G ...
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Victors rool OK
Ahhhh.... the Victor cockpit views from Senior Pilot bring the memories back.
Swivelling the Nav Plotter's armchair 180 degrees, looking DOWN and acting as an extremely sarcastic Check Pilot for the 2 numpties up front. Only joking, genus piloti.
Some of you may remember my Captain - Bill Palmer. A japester par excellence on the ground but totally different airborne - went on to fly umpteen thousands of Captain hours with Swissair.
The Co-Pilot - poor Dave Mallett - on leaving the RAF he joined No 3 Sqn RRAF - was killed in a Jan 1977 Dakota incident whilst on a low level supply mission in Rhodesia.
Victor layout compared to the Vulcan? No comparison - flew a few times on competition umpiring duties in B Mk 2s from Waddo and Scampton. As heard on a TV programme the other evening - "Flying downstairs in a Vulcan was akin to travelling backwards in a windowless coal cellar."
As for Vulcan emergency evacuation? I well remember part of my Vulcan flight safety briefing (XM652 Sqn Ldr Lamont) - if the nose wheel leg is down, jump off the steps, grab hold of the leg, swing round and away you go. As he was a 2 and a half ringer unknown to me discretion overcame valour. But my thoughts were - "aye right, you have got to be fecken joking. I am full NOT of tricks like that."
My most energising 'brown adrenalin' experience of the Victor Cockpit view. Zooming along at FL390 M0.88, there was an explosion in the front cockpit (about 5 times as loud as 9mm practice on the pistol range) and the cockpit filled with dense smoke. Without any prior warning the canopy jettson lever had been activated. I swivelled around to front cockpit view expecting I know not what.
I should explain - this was on a 3 times round the UK 10hr training sortie for overseas deployment (fully re-tanked half way through). After about 5 hours Bill was a bit sore in the arse and swapped seats with the Nav Radar for a 10 min or so break. Dave M was doing his pilot thing.
Yup - you've guessed it. The Nav Radar (a very tall individual) was grappling around under the LHS seat to lower same. He pulled the wrong lever.
The Canopy DID NOT jettison. And at that height and speed I thank the Good Lord. To this day I am uncertain as to why - the reason I was given was cabin pressure <> outside air pressure. That seemed a bit odd to me ie the Captain would have to depressureise prior to ejection?
Any Victor piloty person care to amplify on this?
Swivelling the Nav Plotter's armchair 180 degrees, looking DOWN and acting as an extremely sarcastic Check Pilot for the 2 numpties up front. Only joking, genus piloti.
Some of you may remember my Captain - Bill Palmer. A japester par excellence on the ground but totally different airborne - went on to fly umpteen thousands of Captain hours with Swissair.
The Co-Pilot - poor Dave Mallett - on leaving the RAF he joined No 3 Sqn RRAF - was killed in a Jan 1977 Dakota incident whilst on a low level supply mission in Rhodesia.
Victor layout compared to the Vulcan? No comparison - flew a few times on competition umpiring duties in B Mk 2s from Waddo and Scampton. As heard on a TV programme the other evening - "Flying downstairs in a Vulcan was akin to travelling backwards in a windowless coal cellar."
As for Vulcan emergency evacuation? I well remember part of my Vulcan flight safety briefing (XM652 Sqn Ldr Lamont) - if the nose wheel leg is down, jump off the steps, grab hold of the leg, swing round and away you go. As he was a 2 and a half ringer unknown to me discretion overcame valour. But my thoughts were - "aye right, you have got to be fecken joking. I am full NOT of tricks like that."
My most energising 'brown adrenalin' experience of the Victor Cockpit view. Zooming along at FL390 M0.88, there was an explosion in the front cockpit (about 5 times as loud as 9mm practice on the pistol range) and the cockpit filled with dense smoke. Without any prior warning the canopy jettson lever had been activated. I swivelled around to front cockpit view expecting I know not what.
I should explain - this was on a 3 times round the UK 10hr training sortie for overseas deployment (fully re-tanked half way through). After about 5 hours Bill was a bit sore in the arse and swapped seats with the Nav Radar for a 10 min or so break. Dave M was doing his pilot thing.
Yup - you've guessed it. The Nav Radar (a very tall individual) was grappling around under the LHS seat to lower same. He pulled the wrong lever.
The Canopy DID NOT jettison. And at that height and speed I thank the Good Lord. To this day I am uncertain as to why - the reason I was given was cabin pressure <> outside air pressure. That seemed a bit odd to me ie the Captain would have to depressureise prior to ejection?
Any Victor piloty person care to amplify on this?
Glad this thread's been revived - wasnt on PPrune when it was current. To get back to the original point of the thread, Pete Biggadike, ex 214 crew chief has posted some nice pics from his website on here V-Force Reunion - Gallery. The pics in question show the view when receiving and are on page 3, but there are plenty of others to satisfy those strange types who prefer Valiants and Vulcans (see Art Field's post about thread hijack!).
On cockpit vis, I understand the early Victors had no windscreen wipers - all part of Fred HP's very slippery design before they started sticking bits and bobs on the outside. They were consequently a nightmare to taxi in the rain and the windscreen wiper mod soon came along. Anyone verify this?
On cockpit vis, I understand the early Victors had no windscreen wipers - all part of Fred HP's very slippery design before they started sticking bits and bobs on the outside. They were consequently a nightmare to taxi in the rain and the windscreen wiper mod soon came along. Anyone verify this?
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Marham 69. As far as I can remember (We are going back a bit now) the canopy did not go because the cabin had not depressurized when the jettison handle was pulled. The depressurizing was initiated by the Abandon Aircraft switch on the Captains left window panel which would, when the cabin differential became zero, allow the canopy to be lifted off by the aerodynamic effect over it. I remember Bill Palmer only too well having had the quarter next to his.
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Marham 69, I was sad to hear of Dave Mallet's fate in your post. I trained, drank and caroused with him at Acklington, and often wondered what happened to him. A real character, who was always smiling and in the midst of many a merry jape.
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Artfield
I've never flown a V bomber so can't pretent to be qualified to speak on why the Victor canopy didn't go when the jettison was pulled inadvertantly. But from first principles, a pressurised cockpit ought to have helped it on its way!
If the cockpit had been de-pressurised first, then there might have been some aerodynamic "suck" which kept it in place but with say 5-7 psi pressure differential it ought to have gone with a bang.
Just my 2 cents worth - I stand by to be corrected....
MB
If the cockpit had been de-pressurised first, then there might have been some aerodynamic "suck" which kept it in place but with say 5-7 psi pressure differential it ought to have gone with a bang.
Just my 2 cents worth - I stand by to be corrected....
MB
Last edited by Madbob; 29th Jul 2009 at 17:07.
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I may be digging myself deeper into the mire here but I think the canopy was held by latches or seals that could not release fully until the the removal of pressure differential. As I say I'm dragging back into my memory, after all we are talking Victor 1's here, they went out in the late 70's.
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Art Field
Just about right, The canopy was held in place by a series of latches and was sealed by an inflatable rubber seal. You may remember the seal's gas bottle attached to the canopy. It was located just above the ejector seat and was inflated to 1800 psi. The integrity of the latches was checked by ensuring that the canopy rigging tool, located in the cabin near the left hand pilots consul, would pass through the the three rigging holes on the forward edge of the canopy, just on the pilots eye line. I was on 543 Sqn when the Marham canopy release incident happened, it certainly caused some consternation amongst the aircrew. IIRC we had to apply some extra markings to the canopy release handle. Having worked on both the Victor and Vulcan (44R Sqn Crew Chief) the cabin of the Victor was like sitting in a green house compared with the Vulcans " Black Hole of Calcutta"
Just about right, The canopy was held in place by a series of latches and was sealed by an inflatable rubber seal. You may remember the seal's gas bottle attached to the canopy. It was located just above the ejector seat and was inflated to 1800 psi. The integrity of the latches was checked by ensuring that the canopy rigging tool, located in the cabin near the left hand pilots consul, would pass through the the three rigging holes on the forward edge of the canopy, just on the pilots eye line. I was on 543 Sqn when the Marham canopy release incident happened, it certainly caused some consternation amongst the aircrew. IIRC we had to apply some extra markings to the canopy release handle. Having worked on both the Victor and Vulcan (44R Sqn Crew Chief) the cabin of the Victor was like sitting in a green house compared with the Vulcans " Black Hole of Calcutta"