BOAC to the Caribbean
Oh, I do
About 3 weeks before the shutdown, autumn 1968, as a teenager, I flew with Eagle from Liverpool to London on One-Eleven G-ATPI. Alas I left my hat (like John Lennon used to have, latest fashion, apparently extremely expensive - well, for the time) in the seatback pocket. My mother hopped up and down about the loss no end, I was actually in correspondence with whatever passed for a lost property office at Eagle when they went under. It took about a year until its loss was "mentioned" for the last time.
ZFT, you don't happen to know where my hat is, do you ?
About 3 weeks before the shutdown, autumn 1968, as a teenager, I flew with Eagle from Liverpool to London on One-Eleven G-ATPI. Alas I left my hat (like John Lennon used to have, latest fashion, apparently extremely expensive - well, for the time) in the seatback pocket. My mother hopped up and down about the loss no end, I was actually in correspondence with whatever passed for a lost property office at Eagle when they went under. It took about a year until its loss was "mentioned" for the last time.
ZFT, you don't happen to know where my hat is, do you ?
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BOAC caribbean routes 1958, 1961 & 1964 time tables
As a very young boy ( hence my hazy recollection) I flew with my parents to London in above years. I was fortunate to get from this thread a 1962 time table (thanks!) which listed the very Britannia flight we took from Bogota to London and back in our June to Sept 1961 holiday. Great! (age 7+)
However the 1958 & 1964 flights are not so clear. The outbound flight in March 1958 was rather convoluted ( for varoius good reasons) via NY having flown from Barranquilla, Colombia on Avianca to Montego Bay then connecting there on to NY, on what I presume was by Pan Am, then by BOAC Stratocruiser to London. The return was more direct to Montego Bay from London ( with a refuelling stop at Bermuda I pressume) again to connect with the Avianca Super Constellation service to Barranquilla. ( age 4+ )
The July 1964 trip started in Barranquilla, via Pan Am DC-6B to Kingston where we took a BOAC B-707 flight to London via Montego Bay. However the 1962 time table does not show a more direct 707 route from Kingston to London, all shown are via NY, so I pressume the '64 routes had changed by then to exclude the NY stop on some shedules. I'm quite sure that Bermuda was not a stop in that flight but went straight from Montego Bay to London for a quite early AM arrival.
btw, the return trip was by ship at my mothers request (!) from Southampton to Cartagena (via Spain and Canarys)
If any one can help me with the detail of the 1958 and 1964 time tables I would be grately appreciative.
many thanks to all.
However the 1958 & 1964 flights are not so clear. The outbound flight in March 1958 was rather convoluted ( for varoius good reasons) via NY having flown from Barranquilla, Colombia on Avianca to Montego Bay then connecting there on to NY, on what I presume was by Pan Am, then by BOAC Stratocruiser to London. The return was more direct to Montego Bay from London ( with a refuelling stop at Bermuda I pressume) again to connect with the Avianca Super Constellation service to Barranquilla. ( age 4+ )
The July 1964 trip started in Barranquilla, via Pan Am DC-6B to Kingston where we took a BOAC B-707 flight to London via Montego Bay. However the 1962 time table does not show a more direct 707 route from Kingston to London, all shown are via NY, so I pressume the '64 routes had changed by then to exclude the NY stop on some shedules. I'm quite sure that Bermuda was not a stop in that flight but went straight from Montego Bay to London for a quite early AM arrival.
btw, the return trip was by ship at my mothers request (!) from Southampton to Cartagena (via Spain and Canarys)
If any one can help me with the detail of the 1958 and 1964 time tables I would be grately appreciative.
many thanks to all.
Last edited by b377; 20th Nov 2008 at 14:34.
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As a young lad I flew to the Caribbean accompanied by Mother & Brother by BOAC Connie from Heathrow staging through the Azores Bermuda to Jamaca in 1953 returning by BOAC Stratocruser from Jamaca staging through Bermuda Newfoundland to Heathrow in 1956. Happy Days!
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Bermuda stop for BOAC caribbean services
" As this 1957 BOAC ad shows services to Bermuda were flown by Stratocruisers."
Bermuda was a mandatory refueling stop for Strats and Britannias for all BOAC services to Caribbean not via JFK.( later, jets were OK without the stop)
Bogota, BOG was later (from late 60s) served by VC10s and 707s but all flights refueled in Caracas before the, presumably, nonstop oceanic crossing to back to LDN. Much later (70s thru Mid 80s) BCal served that same route with DC-10-30, with same stop at Caracas although the DC10 could do trip non-stop perfectly well. One reason is that BOG ibeing near 10,000 feet alt takeoff weight (max fuel with max payload) was a problem, so refueling at carcas at sea level was the solution.
In mid 80s BA re-acquired that exact route but with 747s (due to BCal take over by BA ?) until its very last flight to BOG in Feb 2005. A big shame as it was a very convenient service to BOG from UK. I never found out the real reason why BA stopped serving BOG after so many years.
Any offers?
Ofcourse 747s do the direct BOG-LDN easily, as can the 777, 767, and Air Bus 340, 330.
Bermuda was a mandatory refueling stop for Strats and Britannias for all BOAC services to Caribbean not via JFK.( later, jets were OK without the stop)
Bogota, BOG was later (from late 60s) served by VC10s and 707s but all flights refueled in Caracas before the, presumably, nonstop oceanic crossing to back to LDN. Much later (70s thru Mid 80s) BCal served that same route with DC-10-30, with same stop at Caracas although the DC10 could do trip non-stop perfectly well. One reason is that BOG ibeing near 10,000 feet alt takeoff weight (max fuel with max payload) was a problem, so refueling at carcas at sea level was the solution.
In mid 80s BA re-acquired that exact route but with 747s (due to BCal take over by BA ?) until its very last flight to BOG in Feb 2005. A big shame as it was a very convenient service to BOG from UK. I never found out the real reason why BA stopped serving BOG after so many years.
Any offers?
Ofcourse 747s do the direct BOG-LDN easily, as can the 777, 767, and Air Bus 340, 330.
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My first trip with BOAC after joining them, from East African, was a 707-436, LHR, JFK,(overnight), Freeport,Montego Bay, Kingston. We missed Kingston as we had overheated brakes in Mo' Bay and stayed the night there, before going to Kingston the next morning.
That was the only time I ever went to Freeport until after I retired.
There were many combinations of the flights to the islands as they changed every April and October, with the summer and winter timetables, as did the types of aircraft.
Speedbird 48
That was the only time I ever went to Freeport until after I retired.
There were many combinations of the flights to the islands as they changed every April and October, with the summer and winter timetables, as did the types of aircraft.
Speedbird 48
1958, 1964
"The outbound flight in March 1958 was rather convoluted ( for varoius good reasons) via NY having flown from Barranquilla, Colombia on Avianca to Montego Bay then connecting there on to NY, on what I presume was by Pan Am, then by BOAC Stratocruiser to London."
The 2/58 OAG shows Avianca leaving Barranquilla 1230 XWe, Kingston arr 1430 lv 1445, MBJ arr 1515. No BOAC to IDL until the following day; I'll check on PA.
(Turns out PA didn't fly Jamaica to NY; probably your only choices were Avianca or a BOAC DC-7C or a "BOAC" Viscount.)
"The July 1964 trip started in Barranquilla, via Pan Am DC-6B to Kingston where we took a BOAC B-707 flight to London via Montego Bay."
6/64 OAG shows PA 458 DC-7C Friday only lv Barranquilla 1130 arr KIN 1325-- no other PA flights on that route. Only one weekly BOAC (operated by BOAC-Cunard) doesn't go to NY, and conveniently for you that flight leaves KIN at 1400 Fr.
MBJ arr 1430 lv 1500
NAS arr 1620 lv 1705
BDA arr 2005 lv 2050
LHR arr 0820
The 2/58 OAG shows Avianca leaving Barranquilla 1230 XWe, Kingston arr 1430 lv 1445, MBJ arr 1515. No BOAC to IDL until the following day; I'll check on PA.
(Turns out PA didn't fly Jamaica to NY; probably your only choices were Avianca or a BOAC DC-7C or a "BOAC" Viscount.)
"The July 1964 trip started in Barranquilla, via Pan Am DC-6B to Kingston where we took a BOAC B-707 flight to London via Montego Bay."
6/64 OAG shows PA 458 DC-7C Friday only lv Barranquilla 1130 arr KIN 1325-- no other PA flights on that route. Only one weekly BOAC (operated by BOAC-Cunard) doesn't go to NY, and conveniently for you that flight leaves KIN at 1400 Fr.
MBJ arr 1430 lv 1500
NAS arr 1620 lv 1705
BDA arr 2005 lv 2050
LHR arr 0820
Last edited by Tim Zukas; 25th Nov 2008 at 02:23.
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1958 flight JFK from M/Bay
Great info many thanks indeed.
Regarding our 1958 trip:
Looking at my mother's passport, we left B/quilla on Avianca flight 670 on 25 March 1958. I presume arrival in Jamaica ( BWI) was in Montego Bay as that was the Avianca route which continued to NY.
Why we did not continue with flight had to do with my sister and I being ill ( throat infections) and grounded in Jamaica until 27/3/58 whence we continued to NY probably because of no BOAC flights available on that date.
I recall getting a lot of Pan Am presents on that flight to NY ( sheriff star badge, etc) so I presume it was Pan Am but I take your point that Pan Am did not serve M/Bay. We arrived North Terminal, Heathrow on 29/3/58 after one night stop in NY. i.e. flew by BOAC Statocruiser on 28/3/58. My take is that arriving at North terminal implies it was a BOAC flight from NY?
Our return trip in 1958, my mother's passpot shows an 'embarked' stamp dated 24 May 1958 London airport flying by BOAC to Jamaica, and arrived Ba/quilla Avianca flight 671 on 25 May 1958 from M/Bay I presume.
Your info re 1964 707 flight makes sense although I do not remember the interim stops perhaps I was asleep - I've always thought it was a direct flight to Ldn.
many thanks
Regarding our 1958 trip:
Looking at my mother's passport, we left B/quilla on Avianca flight 670 on 25 March 1958. I presume arrival in Jamaica ( BWI) was in Montego Bay as that was the Avianca route which continued to NY.
Why we did not continue with flight had to do with my sister and I being ill ( throat infections) and grounded in Jamaica until 27/3/58 whence we continued to NY probably because of no BOAC flights available on that date.
I recall getting a lot of Pan Am presents on that flight to NY ( sheriff star badge, etc) so I presume it was Pan Am but I take your point that Pan Am did not serve M/Bay. We arrived North Terminal, Heathrow on 29/3/58 after one night stop in NY. i.e. flew by BOAC Statocruiser on 28/3/58. My take is that arriving at North terminal implies it was a BOAC flight from NY?
Our return trip in 1958, my mother's passpot shows an 'embarked' stamp dated 24 May 1958 London airport flying by BOAC to Jamaica, and arrived Ba/quilla Avianca flight 671 on 25 May 1958 from M/Bay I presume.
Your info re 1964 707 flight makes sense although I do not remember the interim stops perhaps I was asleep - I've always thought it was a direct flight to Ldn.
many thanks
Last edited by b377; 30th Nov 2008 at 18:25.
You could have left MBJ on Pan Am, but they would have taken you to Miami and you would have changed airlines there to continue to NY.
The only direct MBJ-IDL flights on Thursday 27 March 1958 (according to the 2/58 OAG) were the Avianca L1049 that left at 1600 and arrived IDL at 2135, and the it-says-BOAC Viscount that left at 1345, stopped NAS 1535 to 1605, and arrived IDL 2020. The B377 to LHR left IDL at 1700 daily.
The only direct MBJ-IDL flights on Thursday 27 March 1958 (according to the 2/58 OAG) were the Avianca L1049 that left at 1600 and arrived IDL at 2135, and the it-says-BOAC Viscount that left at 1345, stopped NAS 1535 to 1605, and arrived IDL 2020. The B377 to LHR left IDL at 1700 daily.
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Jamaica to NY
Very interesting indeed.
Regarding the flight from MBJ to NY (which I had always thought was by Pan Am) I was wondering if (given the fact that Pan Am partly owned Avianca in those days and many Avianca planes were ex Pan Am inventory), they operated complementary services and probably covered each other so perhaps our flight to NY was in a Pan Am cover flight? This is rather far fetched though.
OTOH if we did travel to NY by Avianca L1049 then the provenence of all the Pan Am goodies are a mistery. Our flight to London from NY was by BOAC B377 as far as I know, but I do not rule out the possibility that we flew on a Pan Am Stratocruiser instead. I wish I had more clues.
One way or another our Stratocuiser flights were at the end of an Era as I have read that BOAC had phased them all out by 1959.
Regarding the flight from MBJ to NY (which I had always thought was by Pan Am) I was wondering if (given the fact that Pan Am partly owned Avianca in those days and many Avianca planes were ex Pan Am inventory), they operated complementary services and probably covered each other so perhaps our flight to NY was in a Pan Am cover flight? This is rather far fetched though.
OTOH if we did travel to NY by Avianca L1049 then the provenence of all the Pan Am goodies are a mistery. Our flight to London from NY was by BOAC B377 as far as I know, but I do not rule out the possibility that we flew on a Pan Am Stratocruiser instead. I wish I had more clues.
One way or another our Stratocuiser flights were at the end of an Era as I have read that BOAC had phased them all out by 1959.
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A fascinating thread. Rather off-thread but here goes:
WHBM: Any chance of posting a BOAC summer 1958 timetable as you did for the Oct. 1962 timetable? We lived in Sudan in 1958-61 and a good night out in those days was to have dinner on the roof terrace at Khartoum airport. I recall BOAC Britannias and Comet 4's, SAA DC7B's, Alitalia and KLM DC6B's, Air Liban and Ethiopian DC6B's, plus many others. I recall the first BOAC Comet 4 arriving on the inaugural London-Jo'burg run, some time in 1959 I think. The clientele in the roof top restaurant stood up and clapped as it landed. KRT was quite an interesting airport in those days as virtually every Europe-East and South Africa flight seemed to stop there.
We flew from KRT to Cairo via with refuelling stop at Port Sudan on a Sudan Airways DC3 on one occasion, and yours truly (aged 9) was invited to sit in the right hand seat and make a few gentle turns! My first flying lesson! No-one I told thought much of it at the time.
We also flew KRT-Wadi Halfa-Benghazi-Rome-Gatwick in a Transair Viscount 800 in May 1959. The tarmac was melting at Benghazi, with the result that the pax trod sticky tarmac all over the new carpet, much to the disgust of the hostie. Gatwick was very new, and I believe we were one of the first aircraft to use the new terminal. While refuelling at Rome, the inaugural commercial Caravelle flight passed through, Air France, routing Paris-Rome-Athens-Istanbul.
Maybe I should start a Khartoum 1950's thread with this posting?
WHBM: Any chance of posting a BOAC summer 1958 timetable as you did for the Oct. 1962 timetable? We lived in Sudan in 1958-61 and a good night out in those days was to have dinner on the roof terrace at Khartoum airport. I recall BOAC Britannias and Comet 4's, SAA DC7B's, Alitalia and KLM DC6B's, Air Liban and Ethiopian DC6B's, plus many others. I recall the first BOAC Comet 4 arriving on the inaugural London-Jo'burg run, some time in 1959 I think. The clientele in the roof top restaurant stood up and clapped as it landed. KRT was quite an interesting airport in those days as virtually every Europe-East and South Africa flight seemed to stop there.
We flew from KRT to Cairo via with refuelling stop at Port Sudan on a Sudan Airways DC3 on one occasion, and yours truly (aged 9) was invited to sit in the right hand seat and make a few gentle turns! My first flying lesson! No-one I told thought much of it at the time.
We also flew KRT-Wadi Halfa-Benghazi-Rome-Gatwick in a Transair Viscount 800 in May 1959. The tarmac was melting at Benghazi, with the result that the pax trod sticky tarmac all over the new carpet, much to the disgust of the hostie. Gatwick was very new, and I believe we were one of the first aircraft to use the new terminal. While refuelling at Rome, the inaugural commercial Caravelle flight passed through, Air France, routing Paris-Rome-Athens-Istanbul.
Maybe I should start a Khartoum 1950's thread with this posting?
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And another little bit off from the orginal thread....
I remember one time I was in JNB in the 70's ( or might have been the 60's or even the 80's - too many miles on the clock ) and I saw a VC10 operating from JNB to TYO or might have been HKG....
Was this a scheduled service ?
If so, what about Traffic Rights ? And Crew Deployment ? And where was the refuelling stop ?
I remember one time I was in JNB in the 70's ( or might have been the 60's or even the 80's - too many miles on the clock ) and I saw a VC10 operating from JNB to TYO or might have been HKG....
Was this a scheduled service ?
If so, what about Traffic Rights ? And Crew Deployment ? And where was the refuelling stop ?
I used to operate various parts of this flight in the late 80s on a 741. At the time is was the longest air route in the world routing LHR-ANC-TYO-HKG-CMB-SEZ (or was it MRU?)-JNB and v.v. As there were other services to all the various stops the crews did only part of the trip. I remember doing the NRT-HKG bit and HKG-CMB and vv. I also remember operating CMB-SEZ?-JNB and then returning via NBO to LHR. By the time I did it there were only 2 services a week and it stopped soon afterwards.
There were full traffic rights on all sectors (except, I guess, for the tech stop in ANC).
There were full traffic rights on all sectors (except, I guess, for the tech stop in ANC).
Last edited by Flightwatch; 4th Dec 2008 at 14:57.
These services operated for quite a while,something like 1975-84,with a mixture of VC10/707/747.I doubt if many in this country knew they existed.
In 1983 it was a 747 JNB/SEZ/CMB/HKG/OSA/NRT/ANC/LHR.
I flew on the HKG/LHR portion that year and remember a very long flight.We sat in ANC for 3 hours as a favourable wind would have put us in LHR in the middle of the night.
In 1983 it was a 747 JNB/SEZ/CMB/HKG/OSA/NRT/ANC/LHR.
I flew on the HKG/LHR portion that year and remember a very long flight.We sat in ANC for 3 hours as a favourable wind would have put us in LHR in the middle of the night.
Thread Starter
Back in the 707 VC10 days I belie this was quite a complex exercise to get the plane and crews in the right place at the right time. I believe but am not certain that on the VC 10 it was a LHR-HKG aircraft that went on from HK to Japan and then flew back down the rout e described to Jo Burg and back to HK where it was inserted back into the LHR -HK schedule. As someone mentioned I think it only operated two days per week and the crews slipped in Sez on the southern leg and then operated a SEZ-JNG and return had another layover and then returned to HK. HK-Japan was another there and back shuttle.
I am reasonable sure about this as I was lucky enough to meet up with a BOAC Steward who was part of a crew I met up with n the mid east a couple of years earlier and helped them survive a dreary layover in Qatar though use of my car and access to alcohol. I found myself promptly moved up front on the HK London section and had a very nice trip for the period that crew was on board. During that period he told me he had been n the run down to Joburg and had enjoyed several nice days in the Seychelles Of course in those days there would have been a couple or more stops between LHR and HK.
I also had a friend who was 707 pilot who told me it was a popular trip being quite a long one with nice layovers in interesting laces and a break from some f the more routine trips he did across the Atlantic
Not 100% sure of the facts but I think I am partly right and it was a truly unusual if not unique and wonderfully romantic sounding air link. Over time I managed to get to all the places it called at except Colombo but never used the actual route itself.
PB
I am reasonable sure about this as I was lucky enough to meet up with a BOAC Steward who was part of a crew I met up with n the mid east a couple of years earlier and helped them survive a dreary layover in Qatar though use of my car and access to alcohol. I found myself promptly moved up front on the HK London section and had a very nice trip for the period that crew was on board. During that period he told me he had been n the run down to Joburg and had enjoyed several nice days in the Seychelles Of course in those days there would have been a couple or more stops between LHR and HK.
I also had a friend who was 707 pilot who told me it was a popular trip being quite a long one with nice layovers in interesting laces and a break from some f the more routine trips he did across the Atlantic
Not 100% sure of the facts but I think I am partly right and it was a truly unusual if not unique and wonderfully romantic sounding air link. Over time I managed to get to all the places it called at except Colombo but never used the actual route itself.
PB
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BOAC to the Caribbean
BOAC was operating the service from Heathrow to the West Indies via Bermuda from 1963 at least, as I flew to and fro in their "Rolls-Royce" 707s as a schoolboy.They were in fact the 707-436, a R-R version of one of the other Series that Boeing built. Bermuda was the compulsory re-fuelling stop, and from that hub they served Kingston, Montego Bay, Mexico City, Port of Spain, Antigua, and no doubt others. We usually left London at 1615 local, arriving at TXKF in the early evening. From my point of view, departures from Bermuda for London were at 23.59, so how they got to say, Kingston and back in time I'm not too sure! From about 1964 the VC-10 and Super VC-10s appeared on the route as well.
Reading the last 2 posts by Pax Britanica and Saltykettle made me get my old log books out. I was lucky enough to fly VC10s from 1964 to '78 and many people have asked me which were my favourite routes. Two come to mind, the Caribbean ones via New York and Nassau or via Bermuda and on to Montego Bay, Kingston and Lima, or Port of Spain, or Mexico City.
But perhaps my favourite of all was the triangular Indian Ocean route. The crew itinerary varied but typically went something like this:- London - the Gulf (Bahrain, Dhahran, Abu Dhabi or Dubai) - Colombo - Hong Kong - Colombo - Seychelles - Jo'burg - Blantyre - Dar es Salaam - Khartoum - London. Or the other way round flying down through Africa via Addis Ababa to Jo'burg and then across to the Seychelles - Colombo - Hong Kong and back to London via India and the Middle East.
This trip took about 10 days and covered a marvellous variety of aeronautical interest - high altitude airfields, the monsoon in India, flying through and parallel to the ITCZ, the narrow runway at Blantyre, African ATC!! and of course Hong Kong itself. And if done in winter often some snowy or icy weather at London. Altogether a delightful mixture of cultural and flying enjoyment - and we had time off to do things unlike today's rat race.
But perhaps my favourite of all was the triangular Indian Ocean route. The crew itinerary varied but typically went something like this:- London - the Gulf (Bahrain, Dhahran, Abu Dhabi or Dubai) - Colombo - Hong Kong - Colombo - Seychelles - Jo'burg - Blantyre - Dar es Salaam - Khartoum - London. Or the other way round flying down through Africa via Addis Ababa to Jo'burg and then across to the Seychelles - Colombo - Hong Kong and back to London via India and the Middle East.
This trip took about 10 days and covered a marvellous variety of aeronautical interest - high altitude airfields, the monsoon in India, flying through and parallel to the ITCZ, the narrow runway at Blantyre, African ATC!! and of course Hong Kong itself. And if done in winter often some snowy or icy weather at London. Altogether a delightful mixture of cultural and flying enjoyment - and we had time off to do things unlike today's rat race.
Last edited by Bergerie1; 14th Oct 2011 at 12:24.
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My memory of BOAC to the Caribbean was there was no definate route,or at least they kept changing, except that to Barbados, so I looked up my log book and here goes
28/06/69-- New York--Mo Bay-- Kingston --Lima
Off Chocks to On chocks 10hrs and 02 minutes and 3 sectors
06/09/69--- LHR --Antigua return Antigua -- Bermuda-- London
14/08/70---LHR--Barbados [crew slip] --Bardados-- Caracus-- Bogota
27/04/74---LHR-- Bermuda [crew slip]--Bermuda--Kingston-- Panama.
All the above operated by Super VC-10
In those days New York was a big hub for BOAC with flights to the Caribbean -The west coast and Pacific- and Bermuda
28/06/69-- New York--Mo Bay-- Kingston --Lima
Off Chocks to On chocks 10hrs and 02 minutes and 3 sectors
06/09/69--- LHR --Antigua return Antigua -- Bermuda-- London
14/08/70---LHR--Barbados [crew slip] --Bardados-- Caracus-- Bogota
27/04/74---LHR-- Bermuda [crew slip]--Bermuda--Kingston-- Panama.
All the above operated by Super VC-10
In those days New York was a big hub for BOAC with flights to the Caribbean -The west coast and Pacific- and Bermuda
It was indeed - part of the reason why BA built their own terminal there. A Trivial Pursuit type question is what were the first two BA 747 routes when they came in during 1971. No 1 was Heathrow to New York, which is fairly obvious, No 2, started just days later was New York to Bermuda.