BOAC to the Caribbean

[pax britanica]

Mrs PB was watching an Agatha Christie's Miss Marple episode on SkY today set in Barbados in the 60s. My earlierst flights were UK to Barbados and it made me recall a wide variation of a/c types and routes over just a few years
Via JFK 747 /VC10
Via BDA 707-300
Direct 707-300
Direct SV10

It also set me wondering how BOAC flew to the eastern caribbean before this time in the early 70s because I don' think the RR engined 707s or Comets could make it non stop.

Anyone know how they would have got there in the 60s?

I also went to Bermuda many times and IIRC there was a BOAC shuttle from JFK to Bermuda as well

PB

[arem]

I started with BOAC in 1967 and at that time the carib ie BGI POS was served over Bermuda with the 707-436's -lots of nav time LHR-BDA and vv for those of us doing our Flt Nav licence

BDA was also served over JFK as was MBJ/KIN and NAS - the MBJ/KIN was under an Air Jamaica Flight number

At some stage the VC-10 served BGI etc over JFK and later the 707-336C/B did the non-stop ANU/BGI and onwards to CCS/BOG.CLX although these latter stations were served over JFK/KIN for some time with 707-400's.

BOAC were very fond of rotating aircraft types on these routes every couple of years

[gruntie]

In Dr No (1958) James Bond travelled to Jamaica on a Comet. As Ian Fleming resided in Jamaica, presumably it was, maybe, based on fact. But was the Comet around at the time?

[treadigraph]

I take it that it's a Comet in the book Gruntie? In the film it's a Pan Am 707, but I suspect that may have been product placement by Cubbie Broccolli! Mmmmm, Ursula Andress...

[Warmtoast]

In Dr No (1958) James Bond travelled to Jamaica on a Comet.

As this 1957 BOAC ad shows services to Bermuda were flown by Stratocruisers.



Given 007's fondness for bedding females at the slightest opportunity. An overnight flight to to Bermuda in a bed-equipped Stratocruiser woud have probably qualified him to be a founder member of the mile-high club!

[411A]

Ahhh, Stratocruisers, quite an aeroplane.
I flew 'em for awhile...one of the few aeroplanes (other than the DC-7) that would sometimes run out of oil before the fuel was gone.
FD built for comfort, though.
And, fast...300 knots TAS was possible, although usually flown slower for fuel economy.

[WHBM]

I have no record of the Comet 4s (introduced late 1958) serving any North Atlantic route other than the pioneering days to New York with a fuel stop. They were Africa/Asia medium-haul aircraft for routes with lots of stops.

Routing in the 1960s to Barbados etc was through either Bermuda or New York. This latter was used a lot. The VC10/707 split to the Caribbean varied over time but it was common to use the 707 through Bermuda and the VC10 through New York.

Before the 707 came along it was indeed the Stratocruiser. The routing to the Eastern Caribbean in 1956 was London-Gander-Montreal-Bermuda-Barbados-Port of Spain, likewise on from Bermuda to Jamaica. Some flights skipped Montreal, which does indeed seem an awful long way round.

[captain.speaking]

Don'y forget the Britannia - services in Summer 1959 from LHR to BGI/POS
were Britannia 300 via BDA [ LHR/BDA scheduled 12.15 block time ] twice weekly, and the KIN/MBJ route was via JFK and BDA or NAS three times per week.

[Jhieminga]

Originally Posted by WHBM

I have no record of the Comet 4s (introduced late 1958) serving any North Atlantic route other than the pioneering days to New York with a fuel stop. They were Africa/Asia medium-haul aircraft for routes with lots of stops.

According to Charles Woodley's 'BOAC, an illustrated history' the Comet 4 was used on routes to South America from 1960 on. Also in that year the Comet route to New York was extended to Nassau and Montego Bay. This was short lived as later that year Britannias took over that route.

[Hussar 54]

Would I be right in thinking that in the 60's BOAC ( or was it BOAC - CUNARD ? ) used to operate a MAN > JFK service which continued on down into Sth America ( Guyana, perhaps ? )

And slightly off topic, but certainly remember that at the same time, there used to be a SABENA service which stopped in MAN on its westbound to JFK, but I can't remember if it stopped at MAN eastbound....Any ideas why the MAN stopover ? Wouldn't have thought it was for refuelling, so did they have Fifth Freedom rights on that particular service even though BOAC were flying the route ?

[WHBM]

There were a number of European operators who stopped off in the UK in the early jet days of the 1960s. We recently had a discussion here about the SAS daily DC8 service from Prestwick to New York, coming through from Copenhagen. There were others as well.

These rights stemmed from the prop aircraft days, when rights had been negotiated to pick up passengers at the transatantic refuelling stops. Carriers carried on into the jet era as they hoped to pick up extra revenue. BOAC were the same, stopping at Frankfurt, Zurich, etc on the way to Asia. With time it became unprofitable to do so and they faded away.

Yes for part of the 1960s the BOAC transatlantic services were branded as BOAC-Cunard. Cunard (Queen Mary/Elizabeth ships) had got into an arrangement with British Eagle in the early 1960s and bought some 707s for transatlantic/Caribbean routes, things got mired in licence difficulties with the USA, BOAC saw their chance and offered a better deal to Cunard who went for it. If I were British Eagle I would say I was shafted. The main benefit to BOAC was it rid them of a potential significant competitor.

I did once hear that a number of the more senior stewards on BOAC had transferred from Cunard as the shipping sde ran down, there being some staffing arrangement.

[renfrew]

Yes,there were some really weird routings.
For example in 1971, BA537 Manchester/Prestwick/New York/Antigua/Barbados/Trinidad/Georgetown.
I don't think there would have been much demand for Prestwick/Georgetown!

[The SSK]

Schedules would change from one season to the next, but a recurring pattern was that one of the daily LHR–JFK services (the 505) would continue down to Jamaica (MBJ/KIN) via Bahamas (FPO/NAS) while the 537 MAN/PIK/JFK would continue on to the E. Caribbean (Barbados, Trinidad), some continuing to Lima. They would connect in JFK for passengers to transfer one to the other..There would also be a frequent ANU/BGI/POS service via Bermuda, continuing to either Georgetown or Bogota/Caracas. Plus other bits and pieces to/through BDA/Bahamas/Jamaica and on to Mexico.

There was also a Bermuda-Miami shuttle connecting with the London flights, since at that time LON-MIA was not in the UK-US bilateral.

And a very exotic Qantas flight (QF581) on a Saturday which went London – Bermuda – Nassau – Mexico City – Acapulco – Papeete – Nandi – Sydney. I used to check it in occasionally, and passengers (often on emigrant tickets) would ask what the routing was, you would see their eyes getting wider with every stop.

[DCDriver]

BOAC-Cunard 707-436 at BGI in Feb 1965


and a 707-465 in March 1967

[pax britanica]

Thanks to all for the interesting recollections in reponse to my question.

I imagine then that reliable non stop LHR-BGI only came with the 707 -336 all the others stopping in Bermuda . I know the SV10 could do LHR-BGI because I flew back on one but often not with a full load as I got bumped off one. I had wondered in the Britannia which had quite long range was able to make it but seemingly not.

I didnt know there was a BDA- MIA shuttle, there was definatelya bda-jfk shuttle but BDA -MIA was never a popular route as unlike the Caribbean islands Bermudas natural links were to NYC and Boston

Anyway, very kind of people to share some thoughts and for the nice 707pics. Thats how an airport should look isnt it , one plane and you walk through a mini avenue of Oleanders in bloom to get to it.

PB

[WHBM]

Was the Bermuda-Miami sector not always routed through Nassau/Freeport ? And didn't the flight number change at the Bahamas stop ?

Here's the complete BOAC timetable for 1962 :

http://timetableimages.com/ttimages/complete/ba62/

and here's the Caribbean services page directly :

http://timetableimages.com/ttimages/...62/ba62-11.jpg

[ZFT]

WHBM,

If I were British Eagle I would say I was shafted. The main benefit to BOAC was it rid them of a potential significant competitor.

Oh we were shafted - well and truly.

(An ex British Eagle) ZFT

[The SSK]

Was the Bermuda-Miami sector not always routed through Nassau/Freeport ? And didn't the flight number change at the Bahamas stop ?

Yes, you're right. Was working from part 2 of a Summer 69 ABC - all the routing details are in the other part. Four weekly BA674 MIA-NAS or MIA-FPO, connecting with the BA672 to LHR via BDA.

I worked during the 1970s in the planning office for Western Routes (US & Canada). There was also an Eastern Routes and a Southern Routes (Latin America plus Africa). The Eastern and Western guys saw a lot of each other but the Southern Routes people were seldom to be seen, they worked night and day dreaming up new complications to their schedules, particularly the Caribbean ones.

[WHBM]

ZFT :

Thanks for the interesting confirmation; my only knowledge on this is as a business analysis guy (day job) and airline history buff (evenings/weekends) looking at it 45 years after the event.

Harold Bamberg was probably equally as good at shafting others for his own benefit as well, which would be how Eagle was built up. It's dog eat dog out there.

[ZFT]

It's only 40 years since the demise!! November 1968.

Harold Bamberg may well of had his faults but British Eagle was a very, very interesting and pleasant environment to work in.

I don't know anyone who looks back with anything other than fond memories.

The demise was a direct result of the Labour government cancelling the Bermuda license days before the annual loan to get us through the quite winter season.

Unfortunately, it worked.