Schragge Musik!
Indeed they are defensive guns on the 410 though no doubt they could be used to attack from below.
A quick Google Image search gives loads of pictures of various installations:
http://images.google.com/images?hl=e...h+Images&gbv=2
A quick Google Image search gives loads of pictures of various installations:
http://images.google.com/images?hl=e...h+Images&gbv=2
LoadToadThe barbettes on the Me210 and 410 were purely defensive armament. It would be far easier to attack a target using the forward facing guns that were thoughtfully provided by the designers rather than attempt to get into a position to use the rear facing barbettes. 
Kitbag I don't think the FW 189 with it's little 465hp Argus engines and a top speed of 217mph would have been much use as a night fighter. They did attempt to make a single seat ground attack version called the FW189C though. I don't think it got much further than the prototype stage as the Ju87G was a much more effective machine with it's two 37mm cannon which gave it the nickname Panzerknacker (tankbuster).
Kitbag I don't think the FW 189 with it's little 465hp Argus engines and a top speed of 217mph would have been much use as a night fighter. They did attempt to make a single seat ground attack version called the FW189C though. I don't think it got much further than the prototype stage as the Ju87G was a much more effective machine with it's two 37mm cannon which gave it the nickname Panzerknacker (tankbuster).
Last edited by LowNSlow; 1st Oct 2007 at 04:58.
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An obliging chap a Cosford showed me how the barbettes could be tilted so that they were pointing straight up, I imagine it would have been no problem to use them Schrage Musik style.
DC10 REALMAN..Not true that Bomber Command didnt use belly guns..The early marks of Wellington did have a 'dustbin' turret, but was only deployed in combat as it had a huge drag effect on the aircraft.
6 Group (Canadians) did i believe fit some sort of belly armament to their aircraft later in the war.
6 Group (Canadians) did i believe fit some sort of belly armament to their aircraft later in the war.
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Apparently the Me 210/410 defensive barbettes could be elevated or depressed 70 deg. They were controlled by a pistol grip system by the observer.
As this guy was rear facing.....
As this guy was rear facing.....
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According to my references, I can find no record of the Me410 ever being utilised as a night fighter. The remotely operated barbettes were purely for defensive purposes during its role as a fast night bomber.
The first Schrage Musik installations were carried out unofficially by experienced night fighter pilots such as Helmut Lent which included a Revi reflector sight mounting in the cockpit roof. It wasn't until four months later that factory produced installations became available - and only then to the 'Experten'. Aim was normally taken on the area between the inner and outboard engines of the British four engined bombers to set alight the fuel tanks situated in this area and to avoid detonating the bomb load - especially the Halifax which had wing bomb cells fitted to the area between fuselage and the inner engines. The upward firing cannons used non-tracer ammunition and so Bomber Command remained unaware of this weapon for a long time. Most surviving aircrew were convinced they had been hit by flak.
Interestingly, the first installation of an upward firing gun fitted to an aircraft, I believe, was the fitting of a COW gun to a Fe2b in 1916. This was a large calibre recoiless gun produced by the Coventry Ordinance Works and intended, not as a bovine killer but as a Zeppelin destroyer. It was unsucessful due to problems with re-loading in the air.
The first Schrage Musik installations were carried out unofficially by experienced night fighter pilots such as Helmut Lent which included a Revi reflector sight mounting in the cockpit roof. It wasn't until four months later that factory produced installations became available - and only then to the 'Experten'. Aim was normally taken on the area between the inner and outboard engines of the British four engined bombers to set alight the fuel tanks situated in this area and to avoid detonating the bomb load - especially the Halifax which had wing bomb cells fitted to the area between fuselage and the inner engines. The upward firing cannons used non-tracer ammunition and so Bomber Command remained unaware of this weapon for a long time. Most surviving aircrew were convinced they had been hit by flak.
Interestingly, the first installation of an upward firing gun fitted to an aircraft, I believe, was the fitting of a COW gun to a Fe2b in 1916. This was a large calibre recoiless gun produced by the Coventry Ordinance Works and intended, not as a bovine killer but as a Zeppelin destroyer. It was unsucessful due to problems with re-loading in the air.
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Chiglet, pretty sure ''Uhu'' was German for ''owl''.
Whereas the Luftwaffes' own "wooden wonder" [Ta154] was called the Moskito...nice touch
Now, a slight thread drift....without using any search engines...what was a "Fred"?
watp,iktch
Last edited by chiglet; 1st Oct 2007 at 19:55. Reason: speeling
chiglet
From distant memory, wasn't that the allied code word for FW-190's, from the South West Pacific Area's code book?
Same memory bank seems to recall Schragge Musik was the brainchild of an NCO fitter serving with one of the early Bf110 night fighter squadrons.
From distant memory, wasn't that the allied code word for FW-190's, from the South West Pacific Area's code book?
Same memory bank seems to recall Schragge Musik was the brainchild of an NCO fitter serving with one of the early Bf110 night fighter squadrons.
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LowNSlow:
See here: http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/LCBW3/fw189-002.jpg It is clearly equipped both with LN2? radar and upward firing weapons. Size isn't everything
Kitbag I don't think the FW 189 with it's little 465hp Argus engines and a top speed of 217mph would have been much use as a night fighter. They did attempt to make a single seat ground attack version called the FW189C though. I don't think it got much further than the prototype stage as the Ju87G was a much more effective machine with it's two 37mm cannon which gave it the nickname Panzerknacker (tankbuster).
See here: http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/LCBW3/fw189-002.jpg It is clearly equipped both with LN2? radar and upward firing weapons. Size isn't everything
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Nice model:
Jumpseater:
What make of model manufacturer, and where did you purchase it, what scale?
No ones commented on the TA 152??
Chrs'
H/Snort.
What make of model manufacturer, and where did you purchase it, what scale?
No ones commented on the TA 152??
Chrs'
H/Snort.
Kitbag Size isn't everything but speed is I see the radar array but I suspect that the gun pointing upward is just the rear defensive machine gun hangining in it's mounting. Could the radar have been used for shipping attack as the FW189 could carry 4 x 250kg bombs if memory serves me right? I don't think the top speed of 217 mph would allow it to readily catch the bomber stream cruising at around 200mph to easily. Even the Ju-88s and Me-110s needed water/methanol injection to give a boost to performance to overcome the significant drag of the radar arrays.
hogsnortrupert When he designed the Ta-154 it appears that Kurt Tank didn't seem to understand wood like de Havilland did as the gluing methods employed damaged the adjoining wood and compromised the structural integrity. Tank cancelled production after 8 prototypes, 7 pre-production airframes and 10 serial production airframes had been made. The better glue he was waiting for never materialised. Herr Tank did a cracking job of modifying his original FW-190 design to make it into the Ta-152 high altitude fighter though.
I see the radar array but I suspect that the gun pointing upward is just the rear defensive machine gun hangining in it's mounting. Could the radar have been used for shipping attack as the FW189 could carry 4 x 250kg bombs if memory serves me right? I don't think the top speed of 217 mph would allow it to readily catch the bomber stream cruising at around 200mph to easily. Even the Ju-88s and Me-110s needed water/methanol injection to give a boost to performance to overcome the significant drag of the radar arrays.hogsnortrupert When he designed the Ta-154 it appears that Kurt Tank didn't seem to understand wood like de Havilland did as the gluing methods employed damaged the adjoining wood and compromised the structural integrity. Tank cancelled production after 8 prototypes, 7 pre-production airframes and 10 serial production airframes had been made. The better glue he was waiting for never materialised. Herr Tank did a cracking job of modifying his original FW-190 design to make it into the Ta-152 high altitude fighter though.
Last edited by LowNSlow; 2nd Oct 2007 at 12:22.
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The FW189A Schrage Musik mod ( Lichtenstein C-1 Radar and a single 20mm cannon) was to go after Po2s that were on night interdiction.
They were apparently operated by 1./ NJG 100 out of Greifswald into about February 1945.
They were apparently operated by 1./ NJG 100 out of Greifswald into about February 1945.
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Cooda, Yep, a fully marked up FW190 flown by the Japanese foe evaluation purposes, Do you want to set the next braincell teaser?
watp,iktch
watp,iktch
Last edited by chiglet; 2nd Oct 2007 at 16:16. Reason: syntax
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"FRED" was also the ASCC designator for the P-63 Kingcobra - which was in service with the Soviet Union. Then there was the Eric Clutton FRED........
But isn't all this drifting way off thread?
But isn't all this drifting way off thread?
Last edited by RETDPI; 2nd Oct 2007 at 16:49.