Schragge Musik!
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LowNSlow If you look at the tailboom you'll see it has Eastern Front tactical markings. Seems there was a need to defend in the East as well as the West. As RETDPI indicates it was a single weapon. The defensive MG installation was a 7.62 weapon (latterly a double weapon installation) the weapon in the photo is clearly of larger calibre.
I can find no record of the Me410 ever being utilised as a night fighter
The main operational night fighter version of the Hornisse was the Me 410 A-2/U2, fitted with nose radar aerials, a 50 mm BK 5 nose cannon for bomber destroyer purposes, two MG 17 machine guns and two 20 MG 151 cannons in an all-front armament configuration, except for the rear MG 131 barbettes. This was one of the most wonderful gun configurations of the Hornisse because of its tremendous destruction power. The BK 5 was a troublesome cannon for its automatic reloading system jammed easily; even though, a single round could bring down a four engine bomber hit in any part from a 1000 yds.
Some units non specialised in night interception duties used Me 410 Zerstörers for special night missions. Among these units was V./KG 2 which had its first casualty in Me 410 on the night of 13-14 July 1943; it was Feldwebel Zwissler’s and Oberfelbwebel Raida’s U5+KG, shot down by a Mosquito NF XII of No 85 Squadron. Also V./KG 2 (U5+) and 14./KG 2 used Me 410 Bs (U5+) in night attack operations. Oblt. Abrahamczik’s Me 410 had painted in black its undersurfaces for this purpose; he was the squadron leader of 14./KG 2.
I can recall reading accounts of RAF aircrew, night bomber crew specifically, reffering to attacks from these, in the latter part of the war. Certainly the Barbettes were conceived as defence but were also it appears used 'offensively'.
I no longer have the instructions for the kit, but one of the colour schemes was as far as I recall for a night fighter unit, it was built a good few years ago now.
Hogs, its a Revell 1/48'th scale model built by myself as a test piece, I think it's still available.
The main operational night fighter version of the Hornisse was the Me 410 A-2/U2, fitted with nose radar aerials, a 50 mm BK 5 nose cannon for bomber destroyer purposes, two MG 17 machine guns and two 20 MG 151 cannons in an all-front armament configuration, except for the rear MG 131 barbettes. This was one of the most wonderful gun configurations of the Hornisse because of its tremendous destruction power. The BK 5 was a troublesome cannon for its automatic reloading system jammed easily; even though, a single round could bring down a four engine bomber hit in any part from a 1000 yds.
Some units non specialised in night interception duties used Me 410 Zerstörers for special night missions. Among these units was V./KG 2 which had its first casualty in Me 410 on the night of 13-14 July 1943; it was Feldwebel Zwissler’s and Oberfelbwebel Raida’s U5+KG, shot down by a Mosquito NF XII of No 85 Squadron. Also V./KG 2 (U5+) and 14./KG 2 used Me 410 Bs (U5+) in night attack operations. Oblt. Abrahamczik’s Me 410 had painted in black its undersurfaces for this purpose; he was the squadron leader of 14./KG 2.
I can recall reading accounts of RAF aircrew, night bomber crew specifically, reffering to attacks from these, in the latter part of the war. Certainly the Barbettes were conceived as defence but were also it appears used 'offensively'.
I no longer have the instructions for the kit, but one of the colour schemes was as far as I recall for a night fighter unit, it was built a good few years ago now.
Hogs, its a Revell 1/48'th scale model built by myself as a test piece, I think it's still available.
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The FW 190 installation was a test for a similar installation on the ME 163. The FW had two barrels in each wing holding 50mm HE recoilless shells, designed by Dr Langweiler who designed the Panzerfaust anti tank weapon. These were fired electrically by a light sensitive cell. The Me 163 was meant to have 5 barrels.
Last edited by rotorfossil; 6th Oct 2007 at 16:59. Reason: incorrect spelling
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Interesting thread and have poked around for clarification on the 190. Wilde Sau (wild boar) refers to the concept thought up by Hans-Joachim "Hajo" Herrmann, day fighters would be sent up and look for the bombers from the light of flares dropped from light bombers, searchlights set to a wide beam or illuminating lower clouds, or the fires on the ground below. A few Wilde Sau night-fighters were actually fitted with "FuG-217 Neptun" radar, with the transmitting aerials on the aircraft's spine and receiving antennas on the nose and wings. This scheme went no farther than operational trials, possibly because the workload of trying to fly the aircraft and read the radarscope at the same time was simply too high for a single-seat aircraft.
A-8/F-8 series airframes were often used for different armament and equipment testing. Unfortunately, only a small part of the documentation concerning these tests survived, making it impossible to describe in detail all of the modifications and resolve some the contradictory information. In spite of this, we know of the following armament modifications:
1. SG 113 Zellendusche - 3-tube battery based on the MK 103 cannons mounted in the rear fuselage. Firing was made by a photosensor impulse. - SG 117 Zellendusche - 6-tube modification of the previously described battery.
2. Rohrblock 108 - similar construction with 7 tubes based on the elements of the MK 108 cannon, fired by photosensor impulse. Probably, it consisted only of MK 108 cannons barrels with a single cartridge; after firing of the first barrel others were fired automatically by the recoil force of previous barrel. This kind of armament was used for bombers interception and was tested on the Fw 190A-8 (W.Nr. 733713), prototype designation V74.
Anti Tank - Doubled SG 113 A Forstersonde missile launchers were mounted obliquely inside the wings directed downward. Firing performed automatically using Forstersonde magnetic field detection principle, when the plane flew low (30 feet) over a tank. In October 1944, at the research facility FGZ (Forschungsansalt Graf Zeppelin) this device was mounted on the prototype Fw 190 V75 (W.Nr. 582071) and W.Nr. 586586 planes. In December 1944, the system was also mounted on the Fw 190 (W.Nr. 933452). This system was found to have low accuracy, so development was abandoned.
For the anti bomber role aircraft were fitted with,
R1 field conversion - The outboard MG 151/20 cannons were removed and gun pods mounted under each wing with a pair of 20 mm MG 151/20 cannons in each, giving a total weight of fire of six 20 mm and two 7.9 mm guns. This conversion reduced speed by 25 mph and range by 19 miles.
R2 field conversion - Replacement of the R1 20mm gun pods with a 30mm MK 108 cannon under each wing. (not to be confused with the R3 conversion which was a long barrel slow firing 30mm MK 103 cannon for anti tank use).
R6 field conversion - Installation of a pair of WGr. 21 (21 cm) mortar-rocket tubes under the wings.
The best, and seemingly most accurate, 190 site I found is http://ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/20...g_fw190_01.htm
rotorfossil - could find no mention of 50mm. do you have further info. One thing the Germans certainly did with the 190 was experiment and innovate.
A-8/F-8 series airframes were often used for different armament and equipment testing. Unfortunately, only a small part of the documentation concerning these tests survived, making it impossible to describe in detail all of the modifications and resolve some the contradictory information. In spite of this, we know of the following armament modifications:
1. SG 113 Zellendusche - 3-tube battery based on the MK 103 cannons mounted in the rear fuselage. Firing was made by a photosensor impulse. - SG 117 Zellendusche - 6-tube modification of the previously described battery.
2. Rohrblock 108 - similar construction with 7 tubes based on the elements of the MK 108 cannon, fired by photosensor impulse. Probably, it consisted only of MK 108 cannons barrels with a single cartridge; after firing of the first barrel others were fired automatically by the recoil force of previous barrel. This kind of armament was used for bombers interception and was tested on the Fw 190A-8 (W.Nr. 733713), prototype designation V74.
Anti Tank - Doubled SG 113 A Forstersonde missile launchers were mounted obliquely inside the wings directed downward. Firing performed automatically using Forstersonde magnetic field detection principle, when the plane flew low (30 feet) over a tank. In October 1944, at the research facility FGZ (Forschungsansalt Graf Zeppelin) this device was mounted on the prototype Fw 190 V75 (W.Nr. 582071) and W.Nr. 586586 planes. In December 1944, the system was also mounted on the Fw 190 (W.Nr. 933452). This system was found to have low accuracy, so development was abandoned.
For the anti bomber role aircraft were fitted with,
R1 field conversion - The outboard MG 151/20 cannons were removed and gun pods mounted under each wing with a pair of 20 mm MG 151/20 cannons in each, giving a total weight of fire of six 20 mm and two 7.9 mm guns. This conversion reduced speed by 25 mph and range by 19 miles.
R2 field conversion - Replacement of the R1 20mm gun pods with a 30mm MK 108 cannon under each wing. (not to be confused with the R3 conversion which was a long barrel slow firing 30mm MK 103 cannon for anti tank use).
R6 field conversion - Installation of a pair of WGr. 21 (21 cm) mortar-rocket tubes under the wings.
The best, and seemingly most accurate, 190 site I found is http://ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/20...g_fw190_01.htm
rotorfossil - could find no mention of 50mm. do you have further info. One thing the Germans certainly did with the 190 was experiment and innovate.
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As this thread seems to wind about a bit, let me QC Brian's
unless you were a USN F6F-3(N). So combine single-seat fighter plus working the radar plus carrier ops.
I believe the USMC got some of their night fighter Corsairs operational before VJ Day as well.
This scheme went no farther than operational trials, possibly because the workload of trying to fly the aircraft and read the radarscope at the same time was simply too high for a single-seat aircraft.
I believe the USMC got some of their night fighter Corsairs operational before VJ Day as well.
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Brian Abraham
Details of the vertical 50mm weapons in "Rocket fighter" by Mano Ziegler, Chapt 15, picture opposite p.98. The problem was that the operational Me163's weren't having much success as the high closing rate gave sighting problems and the short endurance meant only one powered pass.
The 190 trials were just to prove concept.These were successful against a fabric target stretched between two balloons except that the muzzle blast cracked the canopy.
On the 163, 5 barrels were arranged slightly angled fanwise and a short delay charge in each pair of barrels prevented airframe damage. Unfortunately on the first test, the delays were inadvertently not loaded and all 10 went off together, probably triggered by a patch of mist. Result - scratch one Me 163 and an injured pilot. This all in 1945, so too late for production.
Details of the vertical 50mm weapons in "Rocket fighter" by Mano Ziegler, Chapt 15, picture opposite p.98. The problem was that the operational Me163's weren't having much success as the high closing rate gave sighting problems and the short endurance meant only one powered pass.
The 190 trials were just to prove concept.These were successful against a fabric target stretched between two balloons except that the muzzle blast cracked the canopy.
On the 163, 5 barrels were arranged slightly angled fanwise and a short delay charge in each pair of barrels prevented airframe damage. Unfortunately on the first test, the delays were inadvertently not loaded and all 10 went off together, probably triggered by a patch of mist. Result - scratch one Me 163 and an injured pilot. This all in 1945, so too late for production.
kitbag / RETDPI I'd forgotten about the Russian night ops. 
Going after the PO2 night bombers makes much more sense given the speed differential between the two types 
Going after the PO2 night bombers makes much more sense given the speed differential between the two types
