BAC One-Eleven
No support from BAe who could see their hoped-for sales of the BAe146 being cannibalised by such a relife project, likewise Rolls would rather have just supplied Tays to Fokker. In truth it's a lot of money to spend on a 20-year old aircraft that will still be a 20-year old aircraft when you finish.
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IIRC there was a proposed refanning with Tays which would have made the 1-11 into a low acquisition cost aircraft to be exported to airlines in developing countries.
Robert Maxwell (!) had the same idea many years ago in a proposed project with Armand Hammer, which would have seen surplus Tu-104 aircraft bought from the Soviet Union and fitted with the JT8D. He obviously couldn't fit it in to his pension robbing schedule.
Both aircraft shared the basic factor of being built like a tank, and it could have worked if there was serious industrial muscle (like BAe) behind it. It's like the 707 programs to refan them, without Boeing on board then they never really seemed to go anywhere. The 1-11 would have been a cheap and rugged frame to bolt Tays to, not needing excessive amounts of fancy rewiring to do regional services in the third world.
ROMBAC (?) was also looking at Tays for their Romanian built frames, or even new builds. I think that may have been the project that could have borne fruit as their frames were the youngest after all.
Robert Maxwell (!) had the same idea many years ago in a proposed project with Armand Hammer, which would have seen surplus Tu-104 aircraft bought from the Soviet Union and fitted with the JT8D. He obviously couldn't fit it in to his pension robbing schedule.
Both aircraft shared the basic factor of being built like a tank, and it could have worked if there was serious industrial muscle (like BAe) behind it. It's like the 707 programs to refan them, without Boeing on board then they never really seemed to go anywhere. The 1-11 would have been a cheap and rugged frame to bolt Tays to, not needing excessive amounts of fancy rewiring to do regional services in the third world.
ROMBAC (?) was also looking at Tays for their Romanian built frames, or even new builds. I think that may have been the project that could have borne fruit as their frames were the youngest after all.
Whitehatter,
Unfortunately the third-world countries are the very ones where the noise issues of the Spey are the last thing on their agendas and everyone is focused on cost. After 20 years a re-engine would cost a lot more than buying the aircraft in the first place. So its all down to whether the Tay would save you enough money to balance its purchase cost. And for the limited airframe life remaining it probably wouldn't.
FedEx and UPS re-engined their 727s with in the USA because they were forced to in order to meet nighttime noise requirements. A different matter.
There also isn't that much market in third world countries for short haul jets, just look at their current fleets. What most of them desire first is long range aircraft to connect them into Europe and the USA at near-Western fare levels.
Unfortunately the third-world countries are the very ones where the noise issues of the Spey are the last thing on their agendas and everyone is focused on cost. After 20 years a re-engine would cost a lot more than buying the aircraft in the first place. So its all down to whether the Tay would save you enough money to balance its purchase cost. And for the limited airframe life remaining it probably wouldn't.
FedEx and UPS re-engined their 727s with in the USA because they were forced to in order to meet nighttime noise requirements. A different matter.
There also isn't that much market in third world countries for short haul jets, just look at their current fleets. What most of them desire first is long range aircraft to connect them into Europe and the USA at near-Western fare levels.
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The point was that serious thought was being given to the projects as the 1-11 was a durable enough airframe to be considered for the job.
When the secondhand price of the jet was so low, it made it look possible to fit the Tay and offer it at a fraction of the cost of something comparable. Fuel consumption is also supposedly lower for the Tay than an equivalent Spey. The reality is, as you observe, that it never went anywhere as those airlines want something better and the overall numbers would not make sense to them. There was something similar proposed for classic diesel 9s too.
That Maxwell project was something else again as it related to earlier times when aviation in the third world was still seat-of-the-pants stuff, and the Tu-104 with its Soviet style layout may have been attractive to carriers at less than ideal airports with basic runways.
Anyway God bless the 1-11. It made me a nice few quid over the years.
When the secondhand price of the jet was so low, it made it look possible to fit the Tay and offer it at a fraction of the cost of something comparable. Fuel consumption is also supposedly lower for the Tay than an equivalent Spey. The reality is, as you observe, that it never went anywhere as those airlines want something better and the overall numbers would not make sense to them. There was something similar proposed for classic diesel 9s too.
That Maxwell project was something else again as it related to earlier times when aviation in the third world was still seat-of-the-pants stuff, and the Tu-104 with its Soviet style layout may have been attractive to carriers at less than ideal airports with basic runways.
Anyway God bless the 1-11. It made me a nice few quid over the years.
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http://tkfiles.storage.msn.com/x1pRQ...eXAkqV27Nc4Cuo
Seen last month in Lagos, gathering dust.... very sad.
Seen last month in Lagos, gathering dust.... very sad.
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From the merely sad to the tragic
Okada 1-11s languishing at their Maintenance Base in Benin City Nigeria April 2005
Off Topic - Is that forlorn Airbus still sitting by the Runway at Lagos?
Okada 1-11s languishing at their Maintenance Base in Benin City Nigeria April 2005
Off Topic - Is that forlorn Airbus still sitting by the Runway at Lagos?
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I recall the Nigerians sticking a blanket ban on the 1-11 flying in their airspace, so even if those parked aircraft were just dirty there was no way they could be moved anywhere.
Which is something of a shame, if any of the preservation people were looking for one in decent nick that was still moveable.
Which is something of a shame, if any of the preservation people were looking for one in decent nick that was still moveable.
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Okada 1-11s
I'm sure that Chief (His Highness The #1 Shafter) Obignian will gladly accept a few pennies for that lot with the local ethnic camo for free. You'll first have to pay all the owed enroute/terminal nav/landing fees though. Don't forget what
happened to his son some years back with federal funds.
happened to his son some years back with federal funds.
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I hope that DARPA or whatever it is that is still buzzing about finds its way into preservation eventually. The one which looks somewhat peculiar with its bolted on bits of Typhoon.
Isn't there another one in extremely good nick with the Empire Test Pilots School? ZE432 it says on their page as it's on the RAF books.
This is extremely unnerving as I really never considered I'd ever feel nostalgic about a bloody one-eleven!
Isn't there another one in extremely good nick with the Empire Test Pilots School? ZE432 it says on their page as it's on the RAF books.
This is extremely unnerving as I really never considered I'd ever feel nostalgic about a bloody one-eleven!
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"G-WLAD in Manx Airlines livery." Rememeber fitting the No. 1 engine Ground runs and signing it out from LHR. Also many hours fixing BA Fleet at LHR, BHX, MAN, CDG, plus many on contract, so many engine changes and ground runs. Last one's I rememeber working on was G-AZUK, doing a VIP conversion for a Nigerian Chief.
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Etps 1-11
Whitehatter,
It took a while, but I finally remembered where I'd seen a pic of the ETPS 1-11 ...... http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/51090
It took a while, but I finally remembered where I'd seen a pic of the ETPS 1-11 ...... http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/51090
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The two air Malawi 1/11s!
c/n 214 began life as G-AXJM with British United, then 7Q-YKI with Air Malawi, then back to G-AXJM with British Caledonian transferred to British Airways on the Caledonian/BA merger, then 5N-OAL with Oriental airlines withdrawn from use at Lagos in 1996.
c/n 235 began life as G-AYSC with Court Line, then D-AMAT with Germanair, then Bavaria then Hapag Lloyd, then 7Q-YKK with Air Malawi, then 5N-USE with Okada Air withdrawn from use BeninCity 1997.
c/n 243 delivered as 7Q-YKF to Air Malawi then to 5N-SKS with GAS Air Nigeria withdrawn in 1993
c/n 245 started as DQ-FBQ of Air Pacific, then 7Q-YKQ with Air Malawi, back to DQ-FBQ with Air Pacific then ZE433 with the Royal Aircraft Establishment.
c/n 039 G-ATTP British Eagle, 9J-RCH Zambian Airways, 7Q-YKE Air Malawi, 9J-RCH Zambian Airways, G-ATTP Dan Air, CC-CYM LADECO withdrawn 1994
Think thats all of them
c/n 214 began life as G-AXJM with British United, then 7Q-YKI with Air Malawi, then back to G-AXJM with British Caledonian transferred to British Airways on the Caledonian/BA merger, then 5N-OAL with Oriental airlines withdrawn from use at Lagos in 1996.
c/n 235 began life as G-AYSC with Court Line, then D-AMAT with Germanair, then Bavaria then Hapag Lloyd, then 7Q-YKK with Air Malawi, then 5N-USE with Okada Air withdrawn from use BeninCity 1997.
c/n 243 delivered as 7Q-YKF to Air Malawi then to 5N-SKS with GAS Air Nigeria withdrawn in 1993
c/n 245 started as DQ-FBQ of Air Pacific, then 7Q-YKQ with Air Malawi, back to DQ-FBQ with Air Pacific then ZE433 with the Royal Aircraft Establishment.
c/n 039 G-ATTP British Eagle, 9J-RCH Zambian Airways, 7Q-YKE Air Malawi, 9J-RCH Zambian Airways, G-ATTP Dan Air, CC-CYM LADECO withdrawn 1994
Think thats all of them
Last edited by cvt person; 13th Mar 2007 at 22:24.
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The One Eleven what an aeroplane many years ago it was the first aeroplane I flew on, a day trip to Gatwick from Jersey on a new years day what a day to do it on well it was a free be or someone else payed, never flown before and never looked back since.
Still involved in aviation and hopefully for a number of years to come.
Sad though that some of our British built aircraft are not operating in the skies where they belong?
Maybe No 10 should have one of the BAC 111s for No 10 local run around a nice little VC10 for long haul with the odd trip in a Concorde for a quick chat with him over the ocean at Bush house.
Not a bad idea to keep some of our great aircraft in the air shame some are grounded at the moment.
Tone I know a friend or two that might be able to help out but we need the Airframes to do it with.
I look forward to No 10s reply
British Aerospace could be back on the shopping list at number 10?
Well we can live in hope or no hope.
Still involved in aviation and hopefully for a number of years to come.
Sad though that some of our British built aircraft are not operating in the skies where they belong?
Maybe No 10 should have one of the BAC 111s for No 10 local run around a nice little VC10 for long haul with the odd trip in a Concorde for a quick chat with him over the ocean at Bush house.
Not a bad idea to keep some of our great aircraft in the air shame some are grounded at the moment.
Tone I know a friend or two that might be able to help out but we need the Airframes to do it with.
I look forward to No 10s reply
British Aerospace could be back on the shopping list at number 10?
Well we can live in hope or no hope.
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BA 1-11's
As cabin crew I operated 500's, 400's and 539's, we got the latter, well 3 of em, in BHX when they were new! Also remember a summer with an arabic 400 I think it was reg BUA40, known of course a bugger up! On night flights, remember night Malta's on a 1-11 folks?, we used to turn the galley lights off, listen for the rustle and see how many cockroaches we could kill. Poor engineers could never get rid of them, no matter what fumigation they did.
If memory serves they went back to the Gulf with the aircraft.
A right mare of an aircraft from a cabin crew point of view, but we always felt safe in them. I seem to recall a tale on another thread about Captain 'fingers' Benton who bounced one over a crossing aircraft, think it was either DUS or FRAs coming into land. Tough as Desperate Dan they were!
Happy Days!
If memory serves they went back to the Gulf with the aircraft.
A right mare of an aircraft from a cabin crew point of view, but we always felt safe in them. I seem to recall a tale on another thread about Captain 'fingers' Benton who bounced one over a crossing aircraft, think it was either DUS or FRAs coming into land. Tough as Desperate Dan they were!
Happy Days!
Last edited by oldflyboy; 13th Mar 2007 at 23:11. Reason: spelin
cvt person which one was the 475 version?I flew on both as a passenger back in the early 1980s.Malawi was high plus hot so always a bit of a challenge for the old girl.
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Tubby,
There's a Production List page on this site http://www.bac1-11jet.co.uk/
You are correct that all 1-11s had both a 3 digit Type number and a two letter type code that was on all wiring diagrams (plus slash numbers if there was more than one mod level for the type or latterly a letter code if it had been mod'd for another operator e.g EK/D for the Robin Loh conversion from Channel.
The list gives Air Malawi as taking delivery of one Type 481FW (243 7Q-YKF). I remember working on an "Engine Contingency Rating" system for Hot & High ops that allowed the crew to exceed normal ITT up to (if memory serves - it's a long time ago) 5 times per engine before a full inspection.
There's a Production List page on this site http://www.bac1-11jet.co.uk/
You are correct that all 1-11s had both a 3 digit Type number and a two letter type code that was on all wiring diagrams (plus slash numbers if there was more than one mod level for the type or latterly a letter code if it had been mod'd for another operator e.g EK/D for the Robin Loh conversion from Channel.
The list gives Air Malawi as taking delivery of one Type 481FW (243 7Q-YKF). I remember working on an "Engine Contingency Rating" system for Hot & High ops that allowed the crew to exceed normal ITT up to (if memory serves - it's a long time ago) 5 times per engine before a full inspection.