English built airliners were a total failure.
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: USA (Naturalized but bits still British!)
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When I came to the States to live in 1987 I was full of the typical British "we invented this, that and the other" kind of attitude and I remain intensely proud of what has been achieved by the British but what truely matters in the end is what you do with it once you have invented it. (I worked on the VC10, BAC1-11, Tornado, Viscount (all as mature programs of course) and there truely is no better looking airliner than the VC10 IMHO! ).
That is where the British entrepreneur (sp?) / scientists / development engineers have been let down, either by the government of the time or a general lack of drive, which would appear to me now, to be linked to the typical attitude bred into most of us working class lads that perhaps we shouldnt strive above our station in life. I still feel that if you strive to succed in the UK you generally get looked down upon wheras in the States you are encourage.
Take a look for a book called - Project Cancelled: Disaster of Britain's Abandoned Aircraft Projects by Derek Wood that should be enough to induce tears.....
Before I ignite a firestorm, I appreciate these are sweeping generalities. I moved to the USA because as an engineer in the UK my future didnt look too good after good old Maggie!
I do allow myself to regress occasionally since you cant beat a pint of Theakstons Old Peculiar nor a decent slab of real Cheddar
Both at extreme cost!
Light blue touchpaper and quickly retire to a safe distance.........
That is where the British entrepreneur (sp?) / scientists / development engineers have been let down, either by the government of the time or a general lack of drive, which would appear to me now, to be linked to the typical attitude bred into most of us working class lads that perhaps we shouldnt strive above our station in life. I still feel that if you strive to succed in the UK you generally get looked down upon wheras in the States you are encourage.
Take a look for a book called - Project Cancelled: Disaster of Britain's Abandoned Aircraft Projects by Derek Wood that should be enough to induce tears.....
Before I ignite a firestorm, I appreciate these are sweeping generalities. I moved to the USA because as an engineer in the UK my future didnt look too good after good old Maggie!
I do allow myself to regress occasionally since you cant beat a pint of Theakstons Old Peculiar nor a decent slab of real Cheddar
Both at extreme cost!Light blue touchpaper and quickly retire to a safe distance.........
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Swindon, Wilts,UK
Posts: 567
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How come no one's mentioned the
Handley Page HP 42
from the Imperial Airways web site http://www.imperial-airways.com/
Handley Page HP 42
they had an unmistakable aura of grace and safety. The latter characteristic was supreme, for when the H.P.42s were finally withdrawn from service on 1st September 1939 they had recorded almost a decade of service without causing a single fatal accident.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 3,325
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A few years ago I stood at the side of Bournemouths runway (near the Channel Express buildings) and watched a hush-kitted European 1-11 take off. Even with the hush-kits on it was painfully noisey!
I remember standing in the garden of the Airport Hotel (by the 24 hold) at Manchester years ago. Several aeroplanes came and went, landings and take offs both adjacent, there being only one runway 24 back then.
Then a hush-kitted 1-11 taxied out and lined up, the twin dustbins on the back of each Spey promising no crackling roar as we'd come to expect from the non-fitted 1-11s.
The power came on and it was quite loud as he started to roll. Then t/o power was applied and all hell broke loose. Trees bent double, the ground shook, tables blown across the garden, beer blasted out of our glasses.
OK, I exaggerate somewhat
, but as it dispperaed over the hump, still blasting seven bells out of our eardrums, my mate shouted "bloody good job it was a hushed one!"It lifted off and reappered in the distance as it climbed away to the west, the crackling roar rising and falling and still audible for several minutes after it had gone from sight.
We could not detect that it was one jot quieter than the unfitted Pocket Rocket. Seemed even louder, in fact.
SSD
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Asgard
Posts: 488
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A query that might well belong elsewhere, but does anyone know what causes the crackling sound on say, a Ba11?
If you want loud, I thought some of the earlier Caravelles were quite impressive.
If you want loud, I thought some of the earlier Caravelles were quite impressive.
Gnome de PPRuNe
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Too close to Croydon for comfort
Age: 60
Posts: 12,625
Received 298 Likes
on
166 Posts
It was loud wasn't it? And the Avon/Spey crackle; "when shall we we three (in the case of the Trident) meet again?"
Always liked the... well, bubbly whistling noise the PW 707s made. Can't describe it better than that and also can't now recall how the Conways sounded on a 707 - and it's been a while since I saw (heard) a VC-10.
Still not as good as a Merlin though...
Always liked the... well, bubbly whistling noise the PW 707s made. Can't describe it better than that and also can't now recall how the Conways sounded on a 707 - and it's been a while since I saw (heard) a VC-10.
Still not as good as a Merlin though...
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 3,325
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For sheer 'presence' IMHO you can't (or couldn't 
) beat the Vulcan. That really did shake the ground - I can still recall my chest cavity reverberating and my eyeballs bouncing to the thunderous cacophony of the 4 Olympusses (Olympi?) as one of these pitched up into a full power climb just above the crowd at the Barton airshow many years ago.
I met the crew that night at the post-show party in the Barton clubhouse. The Vulc was at Manchester for the night, and was due to fly back to its base at 10:00 next day, so me and no 1 duaghter (then about 7 years old) went down to the old brickworks (now under the new runway) at Manch to watch. She taxied out to 24, hidden from us by the famous Manchester hump, but her engines clearly audible. Also, she only had a 360 channel VHF radio so was taxying on the Approach frequency (119.4 back then).
She was given t/o clearance, and a sudden column of back smoke rose from beyond the hump before the mighty roar of her engines at t/o power reached us, down by the 06 end.
With that lovely Vulcan howl, she appeared over the brow of the hump, going very fast indeed, and immediatly pitched up into a very steep climb. By now the intake howl had been replaced by that earth-shaking roar as she climbed seemingly verticallty until she appeared to hover above our heads on four columns of black exhaust, still pointing upwards, then she rotated in a graceful wing-over to recover to level flight and then climb away towards the hills to the east - back home to base, as the world around us resumed normality.
To this day no. 1 daughter has a photo on her bedroom wall of a Vulcan displaying it's massive underside as it pitches into that vertical climb.
Now that's an aeroplane I like to see flying again!
SSD
) beat the Vulcan. That really did shake the ground - I can still recall my chest cavity reverberating and my eyeballs bouncing to the thunderous cacophony of the 4 Olympusses (Olympi?) as one of these pitched up into a full power climb just above the crowd at the Barton airshow many years ago.I met the crew that night at the post-show party in the Barton clubhouse. The Vulc was at Manchester for the night, and was due to fly back to its base at 10:00 next day, so me and no 1 duaghter (then about 7 years old) went down to the old brickworks (now under the new runway) at Manch to watch. She taxied out to 24, hidden from us by the famous Manchester hump, but her engines clearly audible. Also, she only had a 360 channel VHF radio so was taxying on the Approach frequency (119.4 back then).
She was given t/o clearance, and a sudden column of back smoke rose from beyond the hump before the mighty roar of her engines at t/o power reached us, down by the 06 end.
With that lovely Vulcan howl, she appeared over the brow of the hump, going very fast indeed, and immediatly pitched up into a very steep climb. By now the intake howl had been replaced by that earth-shaking roar as she climbed seemingly verticallty until she appeared to hover above our heads on four columns of black exhaust, still pointing upwards, then she rotated in a graceful wing-over to recover to level flight and then climb away towards the hills to the east - back home to base, as the world around us resumed normality.
To this day no. 1 daughter has a photo on her bedroom wall of a Vulcan displaying it's massive underside as it pitches into that vertical climb.
Now that's an aeroplane I like to see flying again!
SSD
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Surrey
Posts: 155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Reference previously mentioned Ethiopian 720B's, there's a description in this nostalgic site of how they dealt with the Addis altitude by landing their Convairs in the desert to refuel.
Gnome de PPRuNe
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Too close to Croydon for comfort
Age: 60
Posts: 12,625
Received 298 Likes
on
166 Posts
Ahhhh, the Vulcan howl.... (Starfighters did that too, weren't they known as Hooters?)
My sister is nuts about the Vulcan after seeing it flying at Lee-on-Solent in the 1980s... She keeps asking me when it will fly again, and is always keen to impart her knowledge that its air intakes are bifurcated, something her children think is rather rude...
Gosh, this thread has drifted a long way down-wind but then, hey, it's nostalgia!
My sister is nuts about the Vulcan after seeing it flying at Lee-on-Solent in the 1980s... She keeps asking me when it will fly again, and is always keen to impart her knowledge that its air intakes are bifurcated, something her children think is rather rude...
Gosh, this thread has drifted a long way down-wind but then, hey, it's nostalgia!
I was lucky enough to run the engines of Vulcan XM655 up to 80% and then to take it taxying at Wellesbourne Mountford last Saturday. The next run will be on 19 Jun - hopefully a full power run along the RW.
But the best news is that XM558's restoration to flying condition at Bruntinghthorpe aerodrome is going ahead and it should be flying this time next year with luck!
The 'rutting dinosaur' intake howl was a characteristic of the Vulcan at high power and low speed which many remember with affection - as I do the Starfighter afterburner shriek - that sort of "Ah - hwoooooooh - argh" sound often heard in Germany in the mid-'70s.
Then there was the wonderful Hunter 'blue note', of course!
But the best news is that XM558's restoration to flying condition at Bruntinghthorpe aerodrome is going ahead and it should be flying this time next year with luck!
The 'rutting dinosaur' intake howl was a characteristic of the Vulcan at high power and low speed which many remember with affection - as I do the Starfighter afterburner shriek - that sort of "Ah - hwoooooooh - argh" sound often heard in Germany in the mid-'70s.
Then there was the wonderful Hunter 'blue note', of course!
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Farnborough, Hants
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Note to myself - must visit pprune more frequently. What an interesting topic.
I have always had the opinion that the British aircraft manufacturers were there own worst enemies when it came to commercial promotion of their own designs.
Since the inception of aircraft building in the UK, manufacturers had, by and large, built aircraft to government contracts, whether military or civilian. Look at all the airliners built in Britain in the 1920s and 1930s. Virtually all of them were made to suit Imperial Airways requirements with no thought given to sales to other "foreign" airlines (with the noteable exception of De Havilland). That trend continued into the 1940s and 1950s. Was not the Brabazon Committee just another example of this methodology? Now and then, one of the designs would find a niche for itself in the world market but, most of the time, the designs either flew in prototype form only or were tailored so close to the state airline's requirements that they were unsellable elsewhere - even to other British airlines. Often the state airlines' requirements had changed by the time the plane was ready to enter service so ended up being ordered in miniscule numbers.
The manufacturers found it very hard to break away from this commercial "model" and when, in the 1960s, the need to compete on a world-wide commercial basis became apparent, they found themselves lacking. It took quite a few years for a more marketing based commercial approach to sink in and by then the number of manufacturers had severly reduced.
Old habits died hard. Even in the 1970s Hawker Siddeley were reluctant to go ahead with the HS146 without government backing. They had to wait until BAe was "nationalised" in 1977 beffore the project was resurrected. I wonder how successful the plane would have been if it had gone ahead in 1973 rather than 1978?
I have always had the opinion that the British aircraft manufacturers were there own worst enemies when it came to commercial promotion of their own designs.
Since the inception of aircraft building in the UK, manufacturers had, by and large, built aircraft to government contracts, whether military or civilian. Look at all the airliners built in Britain in the 1920s and 1930s. Virtually all of them were made to suit Imperial Airways requirements with no thought given to sales to other "foreign" airlines (with the noteable exception of De Havilland). That trend continued into the 1940s and 1950s. Was not the Brabazon Committee just another example of this methodology? Now and then, one of the designs would find a niche for itself in the world market but, most of the time, the designs either flew in prototype form only or were tailored so close to the state airline's requirements that they were unsellable elsewhere - even to other British airlines. Often the state airlines' requirements had changed by the time the plane was ready to enter service so ended up being ordered in miniscule numbers.
The manufacturers found it very hard to break away from this commercial "model" and when, in the 1960s, the need to compete on a world-wide commercial basis became apparent, they found themselves lacking. It took quite a few years for a more marketing based commercial approach to sink in and by then the number of manufacturers had severly reduced.
Old habits died hard. Even in the 1970s Hawker Siddeley were reluctant to go ahead with the HS146 without government backing. They had to wait until BAe was "nationalised" in 1977 beffore the project was resurrected. I wonder how successful the plane would have been if it had gone ahead in 1973 rather than 1978?
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Covering the Commonwealth
Posts: 549
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
HP-42.
A great airliner, flown by a great airline. However I always feel that the claim that Imperial never lost a passanger on HP-42s was a bit disingenious; as one of the '42s was lost with all hands in 1940 in North Africa - Post Imperial Airways of course, but rather spoiling the '42s record.
A great airliner, flown by a great airline. However I always feel that the claim that Imperial never lost a passanger on HP-42s was a bit disingenious; as one of the '42s was lost with all hands in 1940 in North Africa - Post Imperial Airways of course, but rather spoiling the '42s record.
Gnome de PPRuNe
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Too close to Croydon for comfort
Age: 60
Posts: 12,625
Received 298 Likes
on
166 Posts
The next run will be on 19 Jun
Effortless, that reminds me of John Blake's tasteless joke: How does one acquire an ex Luftwaffe F-104? Easy, one buys a field and one waits...
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Under the clag EGKA
Posts: 1,026
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Effortless, that reminds me of John Blake's tasteless joke: How does one acquire an ex Luftwaffe F-104? Easy, one buys a field and one waits...
