English built airliners were a total failure.
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Only just caught up with this thread but my best memory of the VC-10 was at Embakasi (Nairobi). I was waiting for a UK visitor on the "waving-base" in the early 70's when an Ethiopian Boeing 720 waddled out for take-off. Bearing in mind that it was mid-day at 5500 feet on the Equator the density altitude was probably around 9000 feet. Off went the 720 emitting filthy black smoke and used just about all of the 3000 metres of runway.(Built courtesy of the Mau Mau but that's another story!). It had just about got enough flying speed to miss Ol Donyo Sapuk about 15 miles away when an East African VC-10 taxiied out and blasted off from the intersection, using way less than half the available. This was exactly what it was designed for so the Vickers engineers got that right but BOAC let them down by not backing it.
Great to fly in too.
Great to fly in too.
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Cor, memories of the same location Ozplane! Don't recall any hairy take offs, but I do remember the viewing gallery there. Ngong Hills off one end and the Buffalo's Head off the other, and High Density...
Flight out to Nairobi in '69 in a BOAC Standard VC-10, back to UK in '71 in an EAA Super (I think). Lovely aeroplanes...
Flight out to Nairobi in '69 in a BOAC Standard VC-10, back to UK in '71 in an EAA Super (I think). Lovely aeroplanes...
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Treadigraph, you may be interested in a thread on "African Aviation" on pprune called Ugandan Thunderbolts which leads to a series of pictures taken at Nairobi in the 60's. Fascinating
Gnome de PPRuNe
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Brilliant! Thanks for the lead... I guess those might be the Ngongs in the background of the Vulcan and Hunter pic (and one or two of the others, but they seem much more levels than I recall, not at all the "giant's knuckles" of legend. The finals shot including Ol Donyo Sapuk in the background takes me right back across thirty years!
Cheers!
Treadders
Cheers!
Treadders
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Ah, East Africa and VC10's.............flew regularly on BOAC, BUA (all 3 of them), and EAA Supers, to & from Entebbe, visiting the flight deck on every occasion. Which means that 2 weeks ago at Brooklands I entered the cockpit of G-ASIX for the first time in 40 years. I must say that despite now looking like a Bessarabian brothel the aircraft has weathered the years far better than I have.
Off went the 720 emitting filthy black smoke and used just about all of the 3000 metres of runway. East African VC-10 taxiied out and blasted off from the intersection, using way less than half the available
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Perhaps the 720B was loaded and the VC-10 empty ?
Also, Addis is a pretty high airport so why did Ethiopia buy 720Bs and not VC-10s ? Perhaps costs (purchase and running) had something to do with it ?
I agree the VC-10 was a beautiful and well engineered aeroplane, but no matter how you cut it, it was a commercial disaster.
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Perhaps the 720B was loaded and the VC-10 empty ?
Also, Addis is a pretty high airport so why did Ethiopia buy 720Bs and not VC-10s ? Perhaps costs (purchase and running) had something to do with it ?
I agree the VC-10 was a beautiful and well engineered aeroplane, but no matter how you cut it, it was a commercial disaster.
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Argonautical, I guess the reasons why Ethiopian bought 720s were that 707s wouldn't have got out of Addis and allegedly the Boeing "baksheesh" budget was bigger than BAC's. However I think we all agree that BOAC's lack of backing for the VC-10 was what stopped it's commercial success. Ironically it was probably the connection with BOAC that led to East African buying it. I can still remember the sound of them taking off around 2300 on a still African night and I lived about 10 miles away!
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A couple of years ago an RAF VC10 took off from Manch, on 06. He turned right 180 degress after take off, and commenced a climb downwind eventually passing quite close to chez SSD, the four Conways ripping the summer afternoon air to the tune of what seemd like several hundred decibels.
I'd forgotten just how noisy 1960s airliners used to be.
SSD
I'd forgotten just how noisy 1960s airliners used to be.
SSD
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Noisy? The VC-10? Shaggy me old mucker, you should have been inside it...! 
quote
Noisy? The VC-10? Shaggy me old mucker, you should have been inside it...!
end quote
Never flew in one but I am surprised that it was noisy inside. What was the point in having the engines at the back then ?
Noisy? The VC-10? Shaggy me old mucker, you should have been inside it...!
end quote
Never flew in one but I am surprised that it was noisy inside. What was the point in having the engines at the back then ?
Gnome de PPRuNe
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Sorry, I meant it was quiet inside... perhaps I should rephrase to "had you been inside..."
A few years ago I stood at the side of Bournemouths runway (near the Channel Express buildings) and watched a hush-kitted European 1-11 take off. Even with the hush-kits on it was painfully noisey!
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In response to a previous post, there was (I believe) a successor to the VC-10 called the V1000 in design at Weybridge. I seem to remember pictures of fuselage frames in jigs but it was cancelled and destroyed like so many others...
The VC10 was a good aircraft so perhaps commercial failure rather than total failure is more apt. It suffered by being a later in service than it's main competitor, the B707. it was designed to cope with the 6000' runways round the world which the 707 couldn't use, but the US governemnt paid for many runways to be extended so that 707s would be sold.
Also, BOAC didn't want the VC10 in preference to the 707 - higher operating costs were quoted. Boeing's PR people picked up on it and publicised the fact to great effect The truth was that when BOAC were forced to operate an fleet of about 18 of each, the VC10 was much quicker so the cost of a pond crossing was the same. And the passenger enjoyed the VC10s speed, its quiter cabin, it's bigger seats and the fact it didn't dutch roll its way across the Atlantic - as did the 707!
Also, the pound was strong at the time.
The 10 was (is still!) a great aircraft. Just a victim of circumstance.
Also, BOAC didn't want the VC10 in preference to the 707 - higher operating costs were quoted. Boeing's PR people picked up on it and publicised the fact to great effect The truth was that when BOAC were forced to operate an fleet of about 18 of each, the VC10 was much quicker so the cost of a pond crossing was the same. And the passenger enjoyed the VC10s speed, its quiter cabin, it's bigger seats and the fact it didn't dutch roll its way across the Atlantic - as did the 707!
Also, the pound was strong at the time.
The 10 was (is still!) a great aircraft. Just a victim of circumstance.
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PT6ER, I think the V1000 pre-dated the VC-10 as it was designated the VC-7. It was a sort of grown-up Comet still with buried engines which might not have been a good idea.
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Thanks ozplane,
I've had one of those senior moments when I know I have a picture or two in a pile of junk somewhere if I could only......zzzzzz
I suppose getting older beats the alternative though!
Cheers
I've had one of those senior moments when I know I have a picture or two in a pile of junk somewhere if I could only......zzzzzz
I suppose getting older beats the alternative though!
Cheers
Gnome de PPRuNe
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PT6ER,
Getting older is definitely better than being young these days I'll aver.
And if anyone else suggests that the VC-10 was crap, I'll 'av to ask you to step ahtside!
Getting older is definitely better than being young these days I'll aver.
And if anyone else suggests that the VC-10 was crap, I'll 'av to ask you to step ahtside!
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VC10 Ramblings
I was privileged to have flown on all four BUA then BCAL VC10's and for some of the flights actually get paid for it. The fleet was: G-ARTA, G-ASIW, GASIX, and GATDJ.
GARTA unfortunately had to be scrapped after a landing incident at Gatwick and whilst at one stage I had serious bits of 'hardware' in my Garage, time and various moves mean all I have left is a wooden plaque with a VC10 silhouette made from a piece of GARTA (The apprentices made a lot of these).
Then there were three. Eventually they were all sold off, DJ to RAE, SIW (?) to Air Malawi and the other to the Sultan.
Loved by Passengers, Pilots, Cabin Crew, Engineers and Ground Staff, hated by Accountants. Beautifully built to highest standards. If you needed to be flying over the Andes where CAT could ruin your day, or take-off from Airfields hot and high this was the Aeroplane for you. Unfortunately most Airlines didn't need to do these things on a regular basis.
BUA and BCAL pioneered some unusual concepts on the VC10
Radio Teletype for transmitting Passenger Messages (Technical Success, but attracted no real interest). A Bar with Bar Stools (I don't think this got out of ground demonstration).
All the Aircraft were convertible relatively quickly, from Passenger to Freight and back so Africargo would arrive and by evening would be on the South American.
My most exciting flight rotation was a jump seat trip to/from
Fürstenfeldbruck at the end of the Munich Olympics. NO Noise abatement and if memory serves (probably not) immediate clearance to FL42. Brilliant
My worst was going out for a beer one evening and ending up night stopping Palma, diverting inbound to Manchester and having to hitch a lift on a BCAL 707 back to LGW arriving just as the shift I was supposed to be working ended! Whilst the high altitude view of England in Dense fog, almost made up for the concern my career in aviation was about to end (for some reason I wasn't sacked).
I once held a small conference in the under floor avionics bay (3 people) and of course there are several stories concerning the cockpit crew toilet (I don't believe three let alone four could squeeze into that space), but it appears one of these stories was the basis of a Dr Who Episode where the crew are all in their seats one minute and have disappeared the next.
In Air Malawi Service the Crew Loo was used out of LGW purely for Flight Deck Crew Baggage (the Aircraft also had upper deck baggage areas as the hold were always voluming out with cargo and bags).
In fact my last experience of VC10 Operations was awaiting the arrival of the Air Malawi VC10 on a remote stand a LGW with emergency services standing by as the Aircraft had suffered damage on take-off from Blantyre-Chileka Airport and the crew decided to press-on to LGW, but by the time the Aircraft was 30 Minutes from Gatwick the situation appeared to have become very serious. On the flyby the Ram Air Generator was deployed and I was mentally running through my actions and responsibilities it the worst happened. Then I thought it's VC10 it will be OK and of course it was.
Regrets - Never flew on a super, never flew to the states on a VC10 (If I remember the up market charter firm cancelled the BCAL contract rather than have a 707 operate it :-)
The VC10 was as many in this thread to a specification which immediately limited it's worldwide commercial appeal so it must be judged a commerical might have been, but if deemed a failure then what a glorious failure.
Sorry if I have bored you all.
GARTA unfortunately had to be scrapped after a landing incident at Gatwick and whilst at one stage I had serious bits of 'hardware' in my Garage, time and various moves mean all I have left is a wooden plaque with a VC10 silhouette made from a piece of GARTA (The apprentices made a lot of these).
Then there were three. Eventually they were all sold off, DJ to RAE, SIW (?) to Air Malawi and the other to the Sultan.
Loved by Passengers, Pilots, Cabin Crew, Engineers and Ground Staff, hated by Accountants. Beautifully built to highest standards. If you needed to be flying over the Andes where CAT could ruin your day, or take-off from Airfields hot and high this was the Aeroplane for you. Unfortunately most Airlines didn't need to do these things on a regular basis.
BUA and BCAL pioneered some unusual concepts on the VC10
Radio Teletype for transmitting Passenger Messages (Technical Success, but attracted no real interest). A Bar with Bar Stools (I don't think this got out of ground demonstration).
All the Aircraft were convertible relatively quickly, from Passenger to Freight and back so Africargo would arrive and by evening would be on the South American.
My most exciting flight rotation was a jump seat trip to/from
Fürstenfeldbruck at the end of the Munich Olympics. NO Noise abatement and if memory serves (probably not) immediate clearance to FL42. Brilliant
My worst was going out for a beer one evening and ending up night stopping Palma, diverting inbound to Manchester and having to hitch a lift on a BCAL 707 back to LGW arriving just as the shift I was supposed to be working ended! Whilst the high altitude view of England in Dense fog, almost made up for the concern my career in aviation was about to end (for some reason I wasn't sacked).
I once held a small conference in the under floor avionics bay (3 people) and of course there are several stories concerning the cockpit crew toilet (I don't believe three let alone four could squeeze into that space), but it appears one of these stories was the basis of a Dr Who Episode where the crew are all in their seats one minute and have disappeared the next.
In Air Malawi Service the Crew Loo was used out of LGW purely for Flight Deck Crew Baggage (the Aircraft also had upper deck baggage areas as the hold were always voluming out with cargo and bags).
In fact my last experience of VC10 Operations was awaiting the arrival of the Air Malawi VC10 on a remote stand a LGW with emergency services standing by as the Aircraft had suffered damage on take-off from Blantyre-Chileka Airport and the crew decided to press-on to LGW, but by the time the Aircraft was 30 Minutes from Gatwick the situation appeared to have become very serious. On the flyby the Ram Air Generator was deployed and I was mentally running through my actions and responsibilities it the worst happened. Then I thought it's VC10 it will be OK and of course it was.
Regrets - Never flew on a super, never flew to the states on a VC10 (If I remember the up market charter firm cancelled the BCAL contract rather than have a 707 operate it :-)
The VC10 was as many in this thread to a specification which immediately limited it's worldwide commercial appeal so it must be judged a commerical might have been, but if deemed a failure then what a glorious failure.
Sorry if I have bored you all.