Did You Fly The Vulcan?? (Merged)
Thread Starter
90 KIAS??!! Good grief! I never saw anything below 125 when airborne. Normally our Pattern, Approach and Threshold speeds were 165/145/135 or 160/140/130. 125 KIAS threshold speed was thought of as being very low indeed....but 90??
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Back in the late 70s I was a Nav Rad on a number of ICC sorties (Co-pilot to Captain conversions) during which low-speed handling was demonstrated. I recall that if the drivers (airframe) increased the AoA progressively, at about 108 kts the fin became blanked and the aircraft dropped a wing, thus terminating the manoeuvre.
However, during airshows we regularly saw 80 kts KIAS during wingovers and had to accelerate to pattern speed for the final landing.....
However, during airshows we regularly saw 80 kts KIAS during wingovers and had to accelerate to pattern speed for the final landing.....
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Vulcan Low IAS
John Farley
Remember Ossie Hawkins doing very low IAS testing in a Vulcan B1 fitted with a chute?
Did you ever hear the results of any such tests?
I recall he pitched up, used the chute and then couldn't jettison the thing.
It ceased being a flying machine and he didn't bang out.
Remember Ossie Hawkins doing very low IAS testing in a Vulcan B1 fitted with a chute?
Did you ever hear the results of any such tests?
I recall he pitched up, used the chute and then couldn't jettison the thing.
It ceased being a flying machine and he didn't bang out.
Do a Hover - it avoids G
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Milt
The listing of UK Military Flight Test Accidents 1940-1971 (produced by the former MOD PE flight safety officer Derek Collier Webb) ISBN 0 85130 311 1 has the following account about the Ossie Hawkins accident.
Vulcan B2 XH535 11 May 1964. Mr O J Hawkins Avro captain with Flt Lt R L Beeson co-pilot (B Sqn), rear crew Flt Lt J Dingley, Fg Off P Chilton, Master Sig L Christian and Flt Lt F A Young. At 19,000ft the aircraft spun after a demonstration of low speed (85 kts) high rate descent by the captain. The brake chute was released as a possible aid to recovery and a temporary arrest of the spin was made but it again entered a spin from which no recovery could be made. The co-pilot ordered the ejection and ejected at 2,500 ft, the captain ejected shortly after at 2000ft., the rear crew members remained in the aircraft. The aircraft impacted the ground at Chute nine miles west of Boscombe. Two major injured (pilots) 4 killed.
JF
The listing of UK Military Flight Test Accidents 1940-1971 (produced by the former MOD PE flight safety officer Derek Collier Webb) ISBN 0 85130 311 1 has the following account about the Ossie Hawkins accident.
Vulcan B2 XH535 11 May 1964. Mr O J Hawkins Avro captain with Flt Lt R L Beeson co-pilot (B Sqn), rear crew Flt Lt J Dingley, Fg Off P Chilton, Master Sig L Christian and Flt Lt F A Young. At 19,000ft the aircraft spun after a demonstration of low speed (85 kts) high rate descent by the captain. The brake chute was released as a possible aid to recovery and a temporary arrest of the spin was made but it again entered a spin from which no recovery could be made. The co-pilot ordered the ejection and ejected at 2,500 ft, the captain ejected shortly after at 2000ft., the rear crew members remained in the aircraft. The aircraft impacted the ground at Chute nine miles west of Boscombe. Two major injured (pilots) 4 killed.
JF
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Tasman Flight
The spare aircraft was XA895. Both it and the primary XA897 were prepared at Woodford - even down to the CinC's [***].
But apparently there was a difference. 897 was seemingly fitted with bomb-bay fuel tanks. These had been used by the prototype VX770 in lieu of the wing tanks (or possibly according to one source, the wing and fuselage tanks) for initial flight trials.
From a file held at Kew: the RAF wanted to 'borrow' the tanks for no cost (what's changed)?. The advantages were an increase of range of 700nm. The capacity was 2700 gallons (= 21600 lb).
I have no documentary proof that the system was actually fitted but the outbound leg from Boscombe Down to Khormaksar at a flying time of 7 hrs 20 suggests that it was. It is recorded that for the return flight from Khormaksar the aircraft was loaded to 168000 lb, which allowing for start and taxi, 897 would be at the max auw of 167000 lb for take off. Seems there was more fuel on board than just the main tanks.
One can understand the value of giving the impression that an aircraft had a longer range than it actually had.
Can anyone shad any light on the origin of these tanks and their use? Considering the A and E tanks were ordered in 1960 and not delivered until 1964, the tanks in 770 and probably 897 may have been designed for an earlier purpose - a Tudor for the Berlin airlift for example.
But apparently there was a difference. 897 was seemingly fitted with bomb-bay fuel tanks. These had been used by the prototype VX770 in lieu of the wing tanks (or possibly according to one source, the wing and fuselage tanks) for initial flight trials.
From a file held at Kew: the RAF wanted to 'borrow' the tanks for no cost (what's changed)?. The advantages were an increase of range of 700nm. The capacity was 2700 gallons (= 21600 lb).
I have no documentary proof that the system was actually fitted but the outbound leg from Boscombe Down to Khormaksar at a flying time of 7 hrs 20 suggests that it was. It is recorded that for the return flight from Khormaksar the aircraft was loaded to 168000 lb, which allowing for start and taxi, 897 would be at the max auw of 167000 lb for take off. Seems there was more fuel on board than just the main tanks.
One can understand the value of giving the impression that an aircraft had a longer range than it actually had.
Can anyone shad any light on the origin of these tanks and their use? Considering the A and E tanks were ordered in 1960 and not delivered until 1964, the tanks in 770 and probably 897 may have been designed for an earlier purpose - a Tudor for the Berlin airlift for example.
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" The Civil GCA controllers were prohibited at the time from giving vertical guidance to aircraft after they had passed through 500 ft AGL."
And nobody knew that! Amazing.
Brookes also mentions the BOI. Because of the C-in-C the board became rather senior. (As no junior officer could pass judgement).
The "second navigator" bit. Someone must have anticipated the question: "Why was he (as qualified pilot) not in the right seat?"
And nobody knew that! Amazing.
Brookes also mentions the BOI. Because of the C-in-C the board became rather senior. (As no junior officer could pass judgement).
The "second navigator" bit. Someone must have anticipated the question: "Why was he (as qualified pilot) not in the right seat?"
Beags
Didn't realise you learned at the feet of Andy B. I told him about this thread when I last saw him 10 days ago, but he seems to be adopting a lower than usual profile.
Shame you did not get to Old W at the w/e - Aerobedane was singing your praises :-)
Skua
Didn't realise you learned at the feet of Andy B. I told him about this thread when I last saw him 10 days ago, but he seems to be adopting a lower than usual profile.
Shame you did not get to Old W at the w/e - Aerobedane was singing your praises :-)
Skua
Vulcan Autoland
Beagle
Maybe it had been removed from the OCU syllabus by the time you went through, but I recall Reg Wareham showing me the bottom left hand corner of the envelope one Friday afternoon over the Humber, very impressed I was!
WRT Vulcan autoland I was once told that a secondary purpose for its procurement was to enable a large number of landings to be carried out so that the system could be certified and sold for civil use. As it turned out, the leader cable system was overtaken by the ILS based system and the requirement to make 3 out of 4 landings an autoland never arose. Myth or some truth, can anyone expand?
I am somewhat doubtful about how much real capability the Vulcan (and Victor) autoland system represented. As far as I know it was a single channel system, unless the Alnd Prime function armed a second (redundant) channel which engaged when the leader cable guidance commenced.
From my subsequent Low Visibility Ops (LVO) experience; 3 types with Cat 2 or better capability, current aircraft Cat 3B; I would be very cautious about relying on a single channel system without adequate visual reference. Under present regulations the Vulcan with the 10B autopilot would be limited to Cat 2, i.e. Decision Height (DH) not below 100' above TDZ Elev and IRVR 300mtrs. The problem that might now arise is the adequacy of visibilty forward and down from the Vulcan in the approach configuration to allow the pilot to obtain the required visual reference at a Cat 2 DH. Having had the opportunity to carry out numerous LV approaches on simulator base checks and been able to watch them replayed immediately afterwards (snapshot facility) one quickly realises how difficult it can be to detect and assess the visual references on a Cat 2 approach. I suspect that in the Vulcan, given the relatively restricted forward and down visibility, acquisition of the required visual reference in limiting RVR might have been marginal. I should be interested if any of the TPs can recall the RVRs/visibilities that were anticipated for operational use.
Incidentally, the Victor would have had a lower visual cut-off angle than the Vulcan. Might it have been an acknowledgement of this that led to leader cables being installed at Wittering; that was I believe the first installation.
YS
90 KIAS??!! Good grief! I never saw anything below 125 when airborne
WRT Vulcan autoland I was once told that a secondary purpose for its procurement was to enable a large number of landings to be carried out so that the system could be certified and sold for civil use. As it turned out, the leader cable system was overtaken by the ILS based system and the requirement to make 3 out of 4 landings an autoland never arose. Myth or some truth, can anyone expand?
I am somewhat doubtful about how much real capability the Vulcan (and Victor) autoland system represented. As far as I know it was a single channel system, unless the Alnd Prime function armed a second (redundant) channel which engaged when the leader cable guidance commenced.
From my subsequent Low Visibility Ops (LVO) experience; 3 types with Cat 2 or better capability, current aircraft Cat 3B; I would be very cautious about relying on a single channel system without adequate visual reference. Under present regulations the Vulcan with the 10B autopilot would be limited to Cat 2, i.e. Decision Height (DH) not below 100' above TDZ Elev and IRVR 300mtrs. The problem that might now arise is the adequacy of visibilty forward and down from the Vulcan in the approach configuration to allow the pilot to obtain the required visual reference at a Cat 2 DH. Having had the opportunity to carry out numerous LV approaches on simulator base checks and been able to watch them replayed immediately afterwards (snapshot facility) one quickly realises how difficult it can be to detect and assess the visual references on a Cat 2 approach. I suspect that in the Vulcan, given the relatively restricted forward and down visibility, acquisition of the required visual reference in limiting RVR might have been marginal. I should be interested if any of the TPs can recall the RVRs/visibilities that were anticipated for operational use.
Incidentally, the Victor would have had a lower visual cut-off angle than the Vulcan. Might it have been an acknowledgement of this that led to leader cables being installed at Wittering; that was I believe the first installation.
YS
Thread Starter
skua - glad that the OW bash went well. I'd hoped to drop in on chum Airbedane, but he'd had to go to work.... Not sure why he would have been singing my praises - I don't think that there's anything I could blackmail him with..
I was on the OCU course with Andy B; there were 2 options, go to 50 Sqn with a career-crawling little git (who introduced himself to a bunch of PMRAFNS when we were at North Luffenham as a 'senior pilot'!) - or go to 35 with Andy. I was required to choose - it took about 2 seconds to decide but, being kind, I made it look as though it took a lot longer...
Had the misfortune once to fly with that other captain during the OCU course. At TOC instead of nattering about the usual triv - beer, cars, women, RAF brass, etc, he got out his personal set of GASOs to read
Later, when we returned to Sunny Scampton he asked for an internal aids approach from the very new Plt Off Nav Radar (who I laast saw running Shirko's lot at ASI). I thought the approach was pretty damn good - but all Captain Fantastic would say was "That wasn't a bad approach,Radar, only you brought me down in the red/pinks rather than in the red/whites......
What a pratt! A non-precision approach and he quibbled about fractions of a degree. Great CRM -'me' not 'us', you'll note. He later went on to inflict himself on the Victor tanker force (couldn't prod for $hit, I gather) before spiralling further and further up Air Officers' ar$eholes and disappearing into various low-risk staff and ground appointments.
I was on the OCU course with Andy B; there were 2 options, go to 50 Sqn with a career-crawling little git (who introduced himself to a bunch of PMRAFNS when we were at North Luffenham as a 'senior pilot'!) - or go to 35 with Andy. I was required to choose - it took about 2 seconds to decide but, being kind, I made it look as though it took a lot longer...
Had the misfortune once to fly with that other captain during the OCU course. At TOC instead of nattering about the usual triv - beer, cars, women, RAF brass, etc, he got out his personal set of GASOs to read
Later, when we returned to Sunny Scampton he asked for an internal aids approach from the very new Plt Off Nav Radar (who I laast saw running Shirko's lot at ASI). I thought the approach was pretty damn good - but all Captain Fantastic would say was "That wasn't a bad approach,Radar, only you brought me down in the red/pinks rather than in the red/whites...... What a pratt! A non-precision approach and he quibbled about fractions of a degree. Great CRM -'me' not 'us', you'll note. He later went on to inflict himself on the Victor tanker force (couldn't prod for $hit, I gather) before spiralling further and further up Air Officers' ar$eholes and disappearing into various low-risk staff and ground appointments.
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Vulcan Autoland
Reply to John Farley
One thing I would wish to confirm...Without Auto Land and Auto Throttle I do not think I would have been capable of 9o Kts approaches. I can't claim they were comfortable but they did show our complete confidence in the system.
All I can say about lateral control in turbulance is that every Vulcan autoland that I experienced was in the right place and pointing in the right direction...Remember firm landings were a requirement to prevent any drift occuring during a possible hold off period.
When BLEU gave its first demonstrations to the worlds aviation press, we were, as Murphy's Law would predict, faced with a 25 kt cross wind on RW 27. Mr Charnley, the boss, pointed out that although that was a limiting factor and a situation the equipment was never designed for, if we did not go through with the demonstration, Auto land would be dead in the water, or words to that effect. In the event it worked out perfectly because it demonstrated so well the kick off drift facility. The visitors saw the a/c crabbing all the way down the slope then straighten up just at touchdown. Right on the button.
One thing I would wish to confirm...Without Auto Land and Auto Throttle I do not think I would have been capable of 9o Kts approaches. I can't claim they were comfortable but they did show our complete confidence in the system.
All I can say about lateral control in turbulance is that every Vulcan autoland that I experienced was in the right place and pointing in the right direction...Remember firm landings were a requirement to prevent any drift occuring during a possible hold off period.
When BLEU gave its first demonstrations to the worlds aviation press, we were, as Murphy's Law would predict, faced with a 25 kt cross wind on RW 27. Mr Charnley, the boss, pointed out that although that was a limiting factor and a situation the equipment was never designed for, if we did not go through with the demonstration, Auto land would be dead in the water, or words to that effect. In the event it worked out perfectly because it demonstrated so well the kick off drift facility. The visitors saw the a/c crabbing all the way down the slope then straighten up just at touchdown. Right on the button.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
There is a V Force Reunion at Newark in May.
http://www.militarycollectables.co.uk/reunion/index.htm
Last time (2002) that had 200 they are hoping for 300 this time. Curiously most of the registration desks are all manned by ex-12 Sqn
http://www.militarycollectables.co.uk/reunion/index.htm
Last time (2002) that had 200 they are hoping for 300 this time. Curiously most of the registration desks are all manned by ex-12 Sqn
Beags,
The "other officer" sounds v different from AB, who of course had his share (largely involuntarily) of desk jobs towards the end of his career. You obviously picked wisely.
Skua
The "other officer" sounds v different from AB, who of course had his share (largely involuntarily) of desk jobs towards the end of his career. You obviously picked wisely.
Skua
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Does anybody have any information about the Vulcan that landed at Catterick many years ago? I heard that the crew were worried about the length (or lack of) and applied all measures to bring the ac to a stop quickly and the road was closed at the end. I think they manged to stop half way down, do any of you have the correct details?
One of the aircraft concerned was XL321 AKA "Rusty Bin". This was last used by 50 Sqn and was one of a pair sent to Catterick for the Fire School.
They had to approach over the A1 low, as Catterick does not have a very long runway. The Civvy Police were due to close the A1 to allow the bombers to land, but there was confusion as to the arrival times of the aircraft. The civvy Police used Local, but as per usual, the RAF used Zulu and the aircraft arrived an hour early and gave the commuters on the A1 a very low pass.
I can not remember the other aircraft, but was on the see off team for Rusty Bin.
They had to approach over the A1 low, as Catterick does not have a very long runway. The Civvy Police were due to close the A1 to allow the bombers to land, but there was confusion as to the arrival times of the aircraft. The civvy Police used Local, but as per usual, the RAF used Zulu and the aircraft arrived an hour early and gave the commuters on the A1 a very low pass.
I can not remember the other aircraft, but was on the see off team for Rusty Bin.
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I was scheduled to take one of the ac into Catterick. We went up there to discuss the whole thing with the fire school and the local plods. Because of the narrow taxyways and the A1, it was decided that we would do a short field landing, with chute, shut down on the runway and get towed round to final parking.
In the event, it was decide by the powers that be that we mere mortals were not capable, and the GSU would do the job. After a couple of approaches (with the A1 closed) they did the final landing without incident. Then they decided that, because they were the GSU, they would taxy round to final parking. Several hours later and many shovels full of dirt, the ac was dug out of the grass and towed away!
In the event, it was decide by the powers that be that we mere mortals were not capable, and the GSU would do the job. After a couple of approaches (with the A1 closed) they did the final landing without incident. Then they decided that, because they were the GSU, they would taxy round to final parking. Several hours later and many shovels full of dirt, the ac was dug out of the grass and towed away!
Yes, Him
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One afternoon at Akrotiri in 1970 or 1971, a Britannia burst two or three tires on landing (R/way 27) and came to a stop just beyond the PAR.
For some reason a Vulcan could not divert and so landed with the Brit still on the runway. The V streamed the brakechute at about 50ft just as it crossed the downwind barrier, landed quite firmly and stopped round about the eastern access. Dunno what the length of that is, but it is v. short. Vaguely remember that the a/c captain got an AOC's rec.
Oh, and the turn out of all and sundry to watch this event was one of the larger audiences, to the extent that Tony the Sarnie Man from the kiosk in Ops car park actually closed and went to see what was happening.
For some reason a Vulcan could not divert and so landed with the Brit still on the runway. The V streamed the brakechute at about 50ft just as it crossed the downwind barrier, landed quite firmly and stopped round about the eastern access. Dunno what the length of that is, but it is v. short. Vaguely remember that the a/c captain got an AOC's rec.
Oh, and the turn out of all and sundry to watch this event was one of the larger audiences, to the extent that Tony the Sarnie Man from the kiosk in Ops car park actually closed and went to see what was happening.
Yes, Him
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Ah, was H24 in those days BEags.
The Oven-Ready Chicken lot with Frightenings and a Canberra, 9 & 35 with Vulcans, 1563Flt (later 84Sqn) with Whirlwinds, Love & Kisses with Argosy and Hercs, plus sundry APCs, tanker and transport transits, the Herc OCU doing night circuits, visiting Shacks & Nimrods, US Navy mates lobbing in when they couldn't get back on the boat, foreign af delivery flight transits and black jet dets from time to time.
Would've been easier if it were H36.
StopStart was on the beach though, but his grow-bag was smaller and a different colour then.
The Oven-Ready Chicken lot with Frightenings and a Canberra, 9 & 35 with Vulcans, 1563Flt (later 84Sqn) with Whirlwinds, Love & Kisses with Argosy and Hercs, plus sundry APCs, tanker and transport transits, the Herc OCU doing night circuits, visiting Shacks & Nimrods, US Navy mates lobbing in when they couldn't get back on the boat, foreign af delivery flight transits and black jet dets from time to time.
Would've been easier if it were H36.
StopStart was on the beach though, but his grow-bag was smaller and a different colour then.