The Concorde thread (Don't start a separate one!)
Scourge of Bad Airline Management!
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Having had the priviledge to have flown on her twice (AE and AF) - I had to go and see her off at Cardiff on Thursday...... not a dry eye in the house.
My head says that she had to go - noisy, dirty and just not profitable... but my heart says she was the business.
I for one will miss her..... she was the best of the best. In the words of Jeremy Clarkson - yesterday, Britain slid further toward Third World status. For the first time ever, technology has gone backward; yesterday, the US was 3:40 away, now it is 7:40......
Bless her - the reason some of us dream....
TA
My head says that she had to go - noisy, dirty and just not profitable... but my heart says she was the business.
I for one will miss her..... she was the best of the best. In the words of Jeremy Clarkson - yesterday, Britain slid further toward Third World status. For the first time ever, technology has gone backward; yesterday, the US was 3:40 away, now it is 7:40......
Bless her - the reason some of us dream....
TA
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Am not ashamed to say I was hanging out of the window of the BAW484 at block 54 watching Speedbird AE pass right in front of me, having told the punters what they were seeing already, with me digital camera in hand and waving like a shameless fan. Later found out that Les Brodie was the Captain on that flight, and had the pleasure of flying with him on his brief visit to the 777 a few years ago before he went back on Concorde.
My favourite Concorde memory comes from 1989... sitting at the holding point in the middle of Prestwicks runway 13 as Concorde AA was doing training circuits... training being the word, because the one we were watching was, to be polite, a little unstable; it is after all not a straightforward aircraft to land, and does take practice i am told. Anyway, they threw it away in the flare, and did a full-afterburner go-around, only a few feet from the little Cessna 150 I was in with my instructor (GB, and it was G-BCBY for all the ex-SAF people.) The noise was incredible and we were both yelling with excitement! If you'd told me at the time that a few years later I would be putting in a bid for a command on Concorde (albeit with not a hope in hell!) would I have believed you?
And then the day after, me in the circuit practising glide aproaches, with Concorde lurking in the vicinity, and my favourite ever RT exchange of all-time...
"Prestwick Tower, Speedbird Concorde Alpha Alpha, 12 miles, Runway 13, Touch and go...."
"Roger Alpha Alpha, continue approach, you are number two to the Cessna 150 on short finals...."
Oh, I liked that.........!! Hard to top that.....
Those of us who trained at Prestwick, either as PPL's or if we were later lucky enough at the BAe College there saw Concorde often, but not once did she ever lose her shine, or become routine.... later on, as a regular to JFK from a regional 757/767 base I would often spend more time doing a "walk round" on Concorde on the stand next to me than my own aircraft! Looking at the pictures posted earlier here, where else can you see such elegance encapsulated in a piece of engineering?
Sometimes, but so rarely these days, mankind's artifice becomes artform, and I can think of no more perfect example.
My favourite Concorde memory comes from 1989... sitting at the holding point in the middle of Prestwicks runway 13 as Concorde AA was doing training circuits... training being the word, because the one we were watching was, to be polite, a little unstable; it is after all not a straightforward aircraft to land, and does take practice i am told. Anyway, they threw it away in the flare, and did a full-afterburner go-around, only a few feet from the little Cessna 150 I was in with my instructor (GB, and it was G-BCBY for all the ex-SAF people.) The noise was incredible and we were both yelling with excitement! If you'd told me at the time that a few years later I would be putting in a bid for a command on Concorde (albeit with not a hope in hell!) would I have believed you?
And then the day after, me in the circuit practising glide aproaches, with Concorde lurking in the vicinity, and my favourite ever RT exchange of all-time...
"Prestwick Tower, Speedbird Concorde Alpha Alpha, 12 miles, Runway 13, Touch and go...."
"Roger Alpha Alpha, continue approach, you are number two to the Cessna 150 on short finals...."
Oh, I liked that.........!! Hard to top that.....
Those of us who trained at Prestwick, either as PPL's or if we were later lucky enough at the BAe College there saw Concorde often, but not once did she ever lose her shine, or become routine.... later on, as a regular to JFK from a regional 757/767 base I would often spend more time doing a "walk round" on Concorde on the stand next to me than my own aircraft! Looking at the pictures posted earlier here, where else can you see such elegance encapsulated in a piece of engineering?
Sometimes, but so rarely these days, mankind's artifice becomes artform, and I can think of no more perfect example.
Last edited by Sick Squid; 26th Oct 2003 at 08:06.
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I'll miss the racket of her flying past my house every night, my 4-year-old daughter would shout 'go, Conc, go', even she knew the sound. Very pleased I had a trip in 1996, it was worth every penny to see the navy blue sky and the curve of the earth at 60,000ft. I became an air trafficker the year Concorde entered commercial service, and on Thursday night I stood out on the balcony of the tower at Farnborough when she left for JFK, just so I could hear her one last time. Hard to believe we'll never hear that fabulous, ear-splitting crackle of real engines again. Thanks, Conc. You were the Queen of the Skies.
The Wright Brothers' first flight 1903, Concorde's last flight 2003. A century of boom gone bust.
The Wright Brothers' first flight 1903, Concorde's last flight 2003. A century of boom gone bust.
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Beagle - I am sorry but your suggestion that as a nation we should be "proud" or Richard Branson is nonsense. Branson wanted to score a cheap point against BA - nothing more, nothing less. He has spent his whole life avoiding British taxes - he was charged with fraud by customs and excise and most of his companies are "owned" by off-shore trusts. So when he expresses his outrage and the alleged favourable treatment BA received from the British taxpayer he should be a little more honest. I admire Branson as a bussinessman, but am amazed at the gullible out there who are still taken in by his patter - he is not a philanthropist, he does very little for charity - he is a sharp businnessman with very little to say.
BA retired Concorde because it was no longer viable - BA is a company with shareholders - what do you expect?
For those who are still taken in by Branson I suggest you look up a copy of a biography by Tom Bower and then contrast it to RB's own work of fiction.
Concorde was fantastic and I do not want to diminish its importance but times change.
BA retired Concorde because it was no longer viable - BA is a company with shareholders - what do you expect?
For those who are still taken in by Branson I suggest you look up a copy of a biography by Tom Bower and then contrast it to RB's own work of fiction.
Concorde was fantastic and I do not want to diminish its importance but times change.
lunasynchronous orbiter
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Knock-your-socks-off
Just a reminder to everyone, from earlier post by Speedbird252 on Non-Airline Forums: Private Flying: A sad week for British aviation - have you all seen the photo by Harm Rutten at http://www.airliners.net/open.file/441886/L/. Check it out.
Last edited by jrbt; 26th Oct 2003 at 11:32.
"BA retired Concorde because it was no longer viable - BA is a company with shareholders - what do you expect?"
Yes - that's about all one could expect from ba these days. No pride, no idea of the loss that the nation feels.... Now that they're so dull and grey and the 'Dirty Tricksters' are still being paid hundreds of thousands of pounds per annum, their public image will just become ever more tarnished. Skippy was totally uninspiring on TV - I wonder whether it was a 'political' decision to interview him on his own and not to have John and Raymond Baxter in the same room at the time?
If Sir RB said that he could have made Concorde 'viable', at least then he should have been allowed to try. Cancelling a few Airbus orders in favour of more Boeings might have made the point to the OEM as well......
Perhaps the ba callsign should change to "Slowbird" now?
Yes - that's about all one could expect from ba these days. No pride, no idea of the loss that the nation feels.... Now that they're so dull and grey and the 'Dirty Tricksters' are still being paid hundreds of thousands of pounds per annum, their public image will just become ever more tarnished. Skippy was totally uninspiring on TV - I wonder whether it was a 'political' decision to interview him on his own and not to have John and Raymond Baxter in the same room at the time?
If Sir RB said that he could have made Concorde 'viable', at least then he should have been allowed to try. Cancelling a few Airbus orders in favour of more Boeings might have made the point to the OEM as well......
Perhaps the ba callsign should change to "Slowbird" now?
Eight Gun Fighter
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The withdrawn AF Concordes would have supplied years of spares for BA's aircraft. If Airbus would have released the specs and rights, some other component manufacturers could have carried on with spares at a price. Ditto, RR, if they weren't willing to support the Olympus powerplants. And rotables are called rotables for a reason.
Speedbird is a venerable call sign and should be continued. Afterall, they are still as speedy as anyone else, even if they've just made the biggest mistake in their history.
Would a Rolls Royce be quite right without the Spirit of Ecstasy on top of the rad?
Speedbird is a venerable call sign and should be continued. Afterall, they are still as speedy as anyone else, even if they've just made the biggest mistake in their history.
Would a Rolls Royce be quite right without the Spirit of Ecstasy on top of the rad?
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So why did Concorde retire? I think the reasoning goes something like this:
(a) Airbus say "It'll cost £40M for us to carry on supporting Concorde, and BA and AF have to share the cost".
(b) AF (about to be privatised) say, "We can't afford it, BA will have to pay it all".
(c) BA say they can't afford it.
Ergo, Concorde is scrapped.
There was never any chance of Branson getting Concorde:
(a) Because BA would never have sold it (main reason); but
(b) Because VS doesn't have the staff, slots or infrastructure to run it. (It was all very well saying he wanted the Concordes for £1, but what price everything else he'd have needed?).
In addition, I think it's naive to think that VS would have run the service profitably on its own - without another airline company's support. But that's a side issue because I think VS would have run the service as a loss-leader.
So all in all the reasons for the retirement are far more complex than often presented, and for all those members of Joe-Public who say, "BA should have kept it", how many of them actually ever flew on Concorde (very few because it was so expensive); and how many have flown Easyjet or RyanAir because they were cheaper, thereby giving BA less revenue to support an SSC service.
It's all very well complaining from the sidelines, and while I too am not ashamed to have shed a tear last Friday, I can't completely blame BA for what happened.
P.S. If anyone wants to be properly annoyed by something, why not hop over to flyertalk.com where the travel forums includes a topic called "Which do you prefer: the 747 or Concorde". Needless to say, that (majority American) forum prefers the 747. Oh purrlleeaasse !!
(a) Airbus say "It'll cost £40M for us to carry on supporting Concorde, and BA and AF have to share the cost".
(b) AF (about to be privatised) say, "We can't afford it, BA will have to pay it all".
(c) BA say they can't afford it.
Ergo, Concorde is scrapped.
There was never any chance of Branson getting Concorde:
(a) Because BA would never have sold it (main reason); but
(b) Because VS doesn't have the staff, slots or infrastructure to run it. (It was all very well saying he wanted the Concordes for £1, but what price everything else he'd have needed?).
In addition, I think it's naive to think that VS would have run the service profitably on its own - without another airline company's support. But that's a side issue because I think VS would have run the service as a loss-leader.
So all in all the reasons for the retirement are far more complex than often presented, and for all those members of Joe-Public who say, "BA should have kept it", how many of them actually ever flew on Concorde (very few because it was so expensive); and how many have flown Easyjet or RyanAir because they were cheaper, thereby giving BA less revenue to support an SSC service.
It's all very well complaining from the sidelines, and while I too am not ashamed to have shed a tear last Friday, I can't completely blame BA for what happened.
P.S. If anyone wants to be properly annoyed by something, why not hop over to flyertalk.com where the travel forums includes a topic called "Which do you prefer: the 747 or Concorde". Needless to say, that (majority American) forum prefers the 747. Oh purrlleeaasse !!
Last edited by ojs; 26th Oct 2003 at 17:34.
Paxing All Over The World
With regards to the biz pax don't forget that, when Conc was devised and built:[list=1][*]No comfortable large seat in Club to work/sleep in.[*]No laptop computers to make the time as work where you cannot be 'got' at by anyone.[*]Telecommunications that makes transatlantic phone calls instant and cheap.[*]Internet: Email and Web. When Conc operated it's first commercial flight, a one page fax would take six minutes to transmit. The change in technology, changed Concorde's viability.[*]Biz jets that can cross the Atlantic without stopping.[*]Part ownership of biz jets to bring down cost.[*]Shareholders not wanting to see money spent on Concorde just to save three hours.[/list=1]
There are more along this line of enquiry as well. Also, as has been stated, the financial links between France / America and UK / America are much weaker. With AF not using the machine for the charters and so forth to make up the numbers, then they were always on a losing wicket.
There are more along this line of enquiry as well. Also, as has been stated, the financial links between France / America and UK / America are much weaker. With AF not using the machine for the charters and so forth to make up the numbers, then they were always on a losing wicket.
Eight Gun Fighter
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Telecommunications that makes transatlantic phone calls instant and cheap.
My mob has been busily removing the phones from the seat backs/
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BEagle:
It is all the result of Airbus, nothing to do with BA at all. There is no support for the aircraft, and Virgin could not operate the aircraft if they wanted to since - there are so few spares - bear in mind that 2 were removed from service to support the other 5; none of the corporate customers who had Concorde on their travel requirements before 2001 had it in 2003; the aircraft can only last at today's usage for another couple of years before it runs out of supersonic cycles - there are few left on the highest-used aircraft to reach 8,500 cycles; to extend to 10,000 cycles from 8,500 at the moment requires work from the design authority - Airbus - who refuse to support it.
In essence without the French the aircraft has no future, so don't blame BA.
It is all the result of Airbus, nothing to do with BA at all. There is no support for the aircraft, and Virgin could not operate the aircraft if they wanted to since - there are so few spares - bear in mind that 2 were removed from service to support the other 5; none of the corporate customers who had Concorde on their travel requirements before 2001 had it in 2003; the aircraft can only last at today's usage for another couple of years before it runs out of supersonic cycles - there are few left on the highest-used aircraft to reach 8,500 cycles; to extend to 10,000 cycles from 8,500 at the moment requires work from the design authority - Airbus - who refuse to support it.
In essence without the French the aircraft has no future, so don't blame BA.
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Lucifer - the two BA Aircraft that were removed from service were removed as there was no need to upgrade them post Paris Crash at massive cost, when with the 5 they had in service, the job could be done effectively.
Jordan
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Over the last few months there have been a number of comments along the lines of "Its not BA's decision Airbus are withdrawing the type certificate"
That may be so but BA are not a small Airbus spares customer and are a potential future customer. Its hard to believe they had so little influence.
That may be so but BA are not a small Airbus spares customer and are a potential future customer. Its hard to believe they had so little influence.
Hmm - and how hard did ba's beancounters plead with Airbus? Jolly convenient scapegoat for the lords, suits and Skippy to blame when it gave them the golden opportunity to discontinue Concorde services they'd been looking for all along.
"Don't blame us - it was Airbus." Methinks they do protest too much........
I note from the Concorde bulletin board that I'm not alone in boycotting ba for business travel.....or for any other form of travel, for that matter.
"Don't blame us - it was Airbus." Methinks they do protest too much........
I note from the Concorde bulletin board that I'm not alone in boycotting ba for business travel.....or for any other form of travel, for that matter.