The Concorde thread (Don't start a separate one!)
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Last day at LHR
I flew down from Glasgow to watch my first ever Concorde departure on Friday (as I mentioned in a previous post). Standing in the car park of the Renaissance I happened to get chatting to another fellow Scot who had come down from Leeds. When telling him where we had come from he said "you're not the guy who posted on Pprune saying you were coming from Glasgow are you?" - Yes! was my reply!! - Nice to meet you Ptarmigan!! Oh and by the way, it was well worth the trip... When I watched her take off heading for Edinburgh I nearly wet myself!!!!
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unconfirmed report of Concorde departure for 26th Oct
Within BA we have been told that no details of Concorde's final
destinations have been decided. Also, they said we will be given
information prior to the departures so that we can watch them
leave. So, I doubt that there will be one tomorrow.
ILC
destinations have been decided. Also, they said we will be given
information prior to the departures so that we can watch them
leave. So, I doubt that there will be one tomorrow.
ILC
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Here's a thought for you all.
I rekon Airbus, BA & AF may have exceeded their Authority in scrapping Concorde.
This aircraft was designed, built and developed at massive cost, at entirely the British and French taxpayers expense.
The aircraft were then gifted to British Airways for £1 each. The plan to return 80% of it's profits to the Government was quietly ripped up prior to BA's privatisation.
Given the scenes at Heathrow last friday, I would say that, bar a few sad tree huggers, the vast majority of Concorde's true owners (i.e., British taxpayers) want to see the aircraft keep flying.
Given SRB has offered BA £1 million each for aircraft which BA paid £1 each for, WHY DOSEN'T EDDINGTON CALL HIS BLUFF, AND ACCEPT THE OFFER, like we all want him to?
I rekon Airbus, BA & AF may have exceeded their Authority in scrapping Concorde.
This aircraft was designed, built and developed at massive cost, at entirely the British and French taxpayers expense.
The aircraft were then gifted to British Airways for £1 each. The plan to return 80% of it's profits to the Government was quietly ripped up prior to BA's privatisation.
Given the scenes at Heathrow last friday, I would say that, bar a few sad tree huggers, the vast majority of Concorde's true owners (i.e., British taxpayers) want to see the aircraft keep flying.
Given SRB has offered BA £1 million each for aircraft which BA paid £1 each for, WHY DOSEN'T EDDINGTON CALL HIS BLUFF, AND ACCEPT THE OFFER, like we all want him to?
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jdaleyppr
Shrewd point, well made.
It's one of the points made by those of my friends in BA who were against the decision. Anyone who thinks Airbus simply 'announced' such a momentous decision to BA without prior consultation is, with great respect, being just a little naive.
That is not what happened.
Someone (on this or another thread) said BA Engineering were in favour of scrapping Concorde. From what I hear, there's truth in that. Maintaining Concorde was always a significant item in the Engineering budget but, until recently, it made an enormous profit which more than justified the cost.
Taking all years from 1982 until the Paris crash, Concorde made an average profit for BA of £40 million per annum. Some years were higher, some lower, that was the audited average net annual profit - after taking into account all operating and support costs. (Figures from Jock Lowe, and quoted with his consent.)
When Concorde started flying again, there were fewer trans-Atlantic flights and no charter flights (which had been an important source of revenue) and Concorde operated at a loss of about £10 million per annum.
When Air France pulled out, Airbus was prepared to continue supporting the BA fleet alone, but it would have cost BA in the region of £10 million per annum. That would have meant Concorde operating at a loss of about £20 million per annum initially, and the announcement was made.
There were those in BA who were confident that, with proper marketing, and gradually reintroducing the profitable charter flights, Concorde could again have been profitable and should have been saved - even if it meant operating at a loss until the high end business market picked up.
Sadly, the cautious group (or pessimistic group, depending upon your point of view) won the day. BA was not prepared to pay the £10 million demanded by Airbus in addition to the current operating loss and Concorde was mothballed.
On a separate point .....
Those who've dismissed Richard Branson's offer as a cheap publicity stunt might be interested to know there are people in a position to express informed opinions who don't share their view.
At BA's Concorde party last Friday evening, television recordings about the day's events were played for those who'd been on the flights and missed them. When one of the former Concorde pilots (commenting in the Sky coverage, I think) said Virgin should have been given the chance to operate Concorde, there was an immediate and very loud cheer of agreement.
Branson had researched the venture and there are informed people who believe it was a viable proposal and, if BA wasn't prepared to continue, that he should have been given the opportunity. (RB's claim that the aircraft were given to BA for nothing is an over-simplification, and not entirely accurate, but that's a different matter.)
There are conflicting but respectable opinions on the various issues. However, the impression I've gained from conversations with various people in a position to hold informed opinions is that BA's decision to stop Concorde operations was not as clear-cut and unavoidable as the official announcements suggest, that current BA personnel toe the offical line without necessarily agreeing with it, and that it would be wrong to dismiss Branson's proposal as a publicity-seeking gesture which couldn't have worked.
I'm obviously not in a position to hold an informed opinion myself, but I know a few people who are and find their views very interesting.
Tudor Owen
Shrewd point, well made.
It's one of the points made by those of my friends in BA who were against the decision. Anyone who thinks Airbus simply 'announced' such a momentous decision to BA without prior consultation is, with great respect, being just a little naive.
That is not what happened.
Someone (on this or another thread) said BA Engineering were in favour of scrapping Concorde. From what I hear, there's truth in that. Maintaining Concorde was always a significant item in the Engineering budget but, until recently, it made an enormous profit which more than justified the cost.
Taking all years from 1982 until the Paris crash, Concorde made an average profit for BA of £40 million per annum. Some years were higher, some lower, that was the audited average net annual profit - after taking into account all operating and support costs. (Figures from Jock Lowe, and quoted with his consent.)
When Concorde started flying again, there were fewer trans-Atlantic flights and no charter flights (which had been an important source of revenue) and Concorde operated at a loss of about £10 million per annum.
When Air France pulled out, Airbus was prepared to continue supporting the BA fleet alone, but it would have cost BA in the region of £10 million per annum. That would have meant Concorde operating at a loss of about £20 million per annum initially, and the announcement was made.
There were those in BA who were confident that, with proper marketing, and gradually reintroducing the profitable charter flights, Concorde could again have been profitable and should have been saved - even if it meant operating at a loss until the high end business market picked up.
Sadly, the cautious group (or pessimistic group, depending upon your point of view) won the day. BA was not prepared to pay the £10 million demanded by Airbus in addition to the current operating loss and Concorde was mothballed.
On a separate point .....
Those who've dismissed Richard Branson's offer as a cheap publicity stunt might be interested to know there are people in a position to express informed opinions who don't share their view.
At BA's Concorde party last Friday evening, television recordings about the day's events were played for those who'd been on the flights and missed them. When one of the former Concorde pilots (commenting in the Sky coverage, I think) said Virgin should have been given the chance to operate Concorde, there was an immediate and very loud cheer of agreement.
Branson had researched the venture and there are informed people who believe it was a viable proposal and, if BA wasn't prepared to continue, that he should have been given the opportunity. (RB's claim that the aircraft were given to BA for nothing is an over-simplification, and not entirely accurate, but that's a different matter.)
There are conflicting but respectable opinions on the various issues. However, the impression I've gained from conversations with various people in a position to hold informed opinions is that BA's decision to stop Concorde operations was not as clear-cut and unavoidable as the official announcements suggest, that current BA personnel toe the offical line without necessarily agreeing with it, and that it would be wrong to dismiss Branson's proposal as a publicity-seeking gesture which couldn't have worked.
I'm obviously not in a position to hold an informed opinion myself, but I know a few people who are and find their views very interesting.
Tudor Owen
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 27th Oct 2003 at 05:54.
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G-BOAF Repaint?
I've heard it's in the paint shop - anyone know what's being done?
Hope it's something significant - I can't see why it would be repainted just to send it to a museum.
Hope it's something significant - I can't see why it would be repainted just to send it to a museum.
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Concorde - Let BA and the Government Know Your Feelings
DEVISTATED, as many people who inhabit these boards are, by the premature and uncalled for retirement of Concorde, does anyone know of the best email addresses to let our feelings be known - feelings of gross disappointment - to BA and Tony Blair?
I'm sure even a little of our feelings sent their way would help US, if not the beautiful bird....
I'm sure even a little of our feelings sent their way would help US, if not the beautiful bird....
Tudor, mate - that's exactly what I've been told. The premature retirement of Concorde was the direct result of recommendations made by ba's feeble-minded beancounters....
Could you really envisage King or Marshall ever letting Sir Richard acquire the fleet, no matter how much he was prepared to offer for them?
When it had Concorde, ba still had some special status. It no longer has any.....
Could you really envisage King or Marshall ever letting Sir Richard acquire the fleet, no matter how much he was prepared to offer for them?
When it had Concorde, ba still had some special status. It no longer has any.....
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flange lubricator
Hi, John Thompson (Thompson with a 'p'). So glad to have met you and big Dave alongside 27R and to have shared Friday with you. I've been a Pprune watcher (and very infrequent contributor) for a few years, and have never quite felt part of the inner circle until I got off the Hoopa bus at the Renaissance at 9.15am and heard the accents of two Glaswegians standing on a wall outside and decided to ask the question ' are you the Ppruners who posted earlier this week saying you're coming down from Glasgow'.
They were - and for anyone who's interested ( and excuse me for taking the liberty, you two stars), John from Motherwell drives Virgin Trains and Dave makes jewellery in Glasgow. Different people from different backgrounds - but they both loved Concorde for all the reasons I did, still do and always will do. And they both wanted to be there.
The 10.15 and 2.05 departures were magical - and for John they were his first and last. And yes, Scotsmen do cry! In between, and after, we ate, drank, reminisced - and drank again (well, we're Scotsmen, what do you expect?) - and then drank in all three landings. I stood with two French couples who said they had flown over from Paris to be able to pay tribute in a way that AF had not allowed them to do, and then met an Indian family who had interrupted a holiday to Austria to fly in and be part of history.
My contribution, now it's all over?
Is there anything else in history that had the power to stop so many people around the world doing whatever it was they were doing, to rush to doors, windows and gaze skywards? And all to be captivated by what they saw.
Personally, flying into or out of Heathrow so often and being disappointed if it didn't coincide with an SSC departure or arrival time so I could at least get a crink in my neck from seats a or f.
And finally, grateful thanks that, as an aircraft designer, I wasn't offered a pile of money to design Concorde's successor - because I couldn't. It was perfect. And always will be.
Loved all the Tower to a/c chat on Friday, as did everyone standing around me alongside 27. Grateful thanks.
They were - and for anyone who's interested ( and excuse me for taking the liberty, you two stars), John from Motherwell drives Virgin Trains and Dave makes jewellery in Glasgow. Different people from different backgrounds - but they both loved Concorde for all the reasons I did, still do and always will do. And they both wanted to be there.
The 10.15 and 2.05 departures were magical - and for John they were his first and last. And yes, Scotsmen do cry! In between, and after, we ate, drank, reminisced - and drank again (well, we're Scotsmen, what do you expect?) - and then drank in all three landings. I stood with two French couples who said they had flown over from Paris to be able to pay tribute in a way that AF had not allowed them to do, and then met an Indian family who had interrupted a holiday to Austria to fly in and be part of history.
My contribution, now it's all over?
Is there anything else in history that had the power to stop so many people around the world doing whatever it was they were doing, to rush to doors, windows and gaze skywards? And all to be captivated by what they saw.
Personally, flying into or out of Heathrow so often and being disappointed if it didn't coincide with an SSC departure or arrival time so I could at least get a crink in my neck from seats a or f.
And finally, grateful thanks that, as an aircraft designer, I wasn't offered a pile of money to design Concorde's successor - because I couldn't. It was perfect. And always will be.
Loved all the Tower to a/c chat on Friday, as did everyone standing around me alongside 27. Grateful thanks.
https://www.britishairways.com/webma..._ukfeedback_en perhaps? You will be required to provide your name, contact number and e-mail address.
"First Concorde due to depart LHR tomorrow. Destination, time and reg unknown."
This smacks of Skippy and the rest of the suits trying to get rid of them quickly before the sway of public opinion makes them think again??
What an awful end to a national icon. I truly don't believe that Eddington can even begin to comprehend the sense of outrage which the majority of the nation feels.
This smacks of Skippy and the rest of the suits trying to get rid of them quickly before the sway of public opinion makes them think again??
What an awful end to a national icon. I truly don't believe that Eddington can even begin to comprehend the sense of outrage which the majority of the nation feels.
Brunel to Concorde
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There has been speculation in the local Bristol media over the past few days that G-BOAF, which is supposedly bound for Filton and retirement, might be the aircraft to be kept active for air displays etc if, a big if, agreement can be reached for this to happen.
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Yes Flying Lawyer - I agree..
...there is no one left in BA at the top with any guts... all todies because if you dont tow the party line dont expect a free upgrade on you nexct flight!!! Who appart from the Pilots has spoken out?
All of the beautiful birds will quickly dissapear and when they get to their final resting place (Boeing of course will be getting one - they have tried to get their hands on the intake technology for years... now BA will hand it to them... they will be reverse engineering it in Seattle without a doubt..) Engineers on board those final flights from BA will disable the A/C on arrival so they will never fly again... electric drills through the center section? (deny that BA!)
Such is the disregard in an airline that has lost its heart at the top... who of us if we had the authority would have done what they did on Friday?
Will BA deny that the huge maintenance reserves acrued last year on the Concorde fleet ( to make sure a huge Concorde loss would be shown in the accounts and everyone at BA would blame to A/C for no profit related bonus) when brought back in from reserves now that the A/C are 'retired due to the ever increasing maintenance costs' will be used to pay huge increases to those at the top ( now that the staff have signed up to a small annual increase (excluding the bosses ofcourse!) )
Its just a joke... the Alice in wonderland world they live in.... Bitter and twisted?... Yes I am.
On Friday I was in my office near the Southern Runway... Thousands of young and old and babies were there waiting and waiting and what happened? they all landed in front of the VIP area on the Nortern Runway... Ok I understand that for the TV it was great but couldnt one have landed on the Southern runway or a Paralell approach of 2 Concordes? but then these were just ordinary people not premium cabin travellers... people who would never fly on them... but they just came to see them as they were proud of those who designed her - flew her and maintained her....thats why they came ..... so who at the top of BA would care about them....
And by the way I was lucky enough to fly on Concorde 23 times... all at full fare....
So Goodbye beautiful machine... we all love you and allways will.. we didnt have the power to stop them destroying you... All we can hope is that those spineless creatures who took the descision to kill you off will rot in Hell.....
(But your not quite dead yet... cant we all get together to do something? - anyone who wants to start something - I'm in)
...there is no one left in BA at the top with any guts... all todies because if you dont tow the party line dont expect a free upgrade on you nexct flight!!! Who appart from the Pilots has spoken out?
All of the beautiful birds will quickly dissapear and when they get to their final resting place (Boeing of course will be getting one - they have tried to get their hands on the intake technology for years... now BA will hand it to them... they will be reverse engineering it in Seattle without a doubt..) Engineers on board those final flights from BA will disable the A/C on arrival so they will never fly again... electric drills through the center section? (deny that BA!)
Such is the disregard in an airline that has lost its heart at the top... who of us if we had the authority would have done what they did on Friday?
Will BA deny that the huge maintenance reserves acrued last year on the Concorde fleet ( to make sure a huge Concorde loss would be shown in the accounts and everyone at BA would blame to A/C for no profit related bonus) when brought back in from reserves now that the A/C are 'retired due to the ever increasing maintenance costs' will be used to pay huge increases to those at the top ( now that the staff have signed up to a small annual increase (excluding the bosses ofcourse!) )
Its just a joke... the Alice in wonderland world they live in.... Bitter and twisted?... Yes I am.
On Friday I was in my office near the Southern Runway... Thousands of young and old and babies were there waiting and waiting and what happened? they all landed in front of the VIP area on the Nortern Runway... Ok I understand that for the TV it was great but couldnt one have landed on the Southern runway or a Paralell approach of 2 Concordes? but then these were just ordinary people not premium cabin travellers... people who would never fly on them... but they just came to see them as they were proud of those who designed her - flew her and maintained her....thats why they came ..... so who at the top of BA would care about them....
And by the way I was lucky enough to fly on Concorde 23 times... all at full fare....
So Goodbye beautiful machine... we all love you and allways will.. we didnt have the power to stop them destroying you... All we can hope is that those spineless creatures who took the descision to kill you off will rot in Hell.....
(But your not quite dead yet... cant we all get together to do something? - anyone who wants to start something - I'm in)
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Nice touch on the RT with 002 and West Drayton when London ATC vectored 002 over West Drayton.
ATC: "Speedbird 002 you're right over the top of us now and everyones run outside"
Quick as anything from 002 came the reply,
"Well don't you go!"
Great stuff
ATC: "Speedbird 002 you're right over the top of us now and everyones run outside"
Quick as anything from 002 came the reply,
"Well don't you go!"
Great stuff
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I understand that the reason for dropping the charters post-relaunch was due to the increase in cycles that they placed on the airframes.
At the time (with the assumption of Airbus support till 2007) the decision was made as a way of making the entire operation more 'robust' (i.e. less of a need to conduct heavy maintenance so often to appease beancounters in lean times).
Of course, with the withdrawal announcement, they could have filled all the charters they could offer.....but it was too late to get AA and AB back into working order and ramp up the operations of the other 5.
At the time (with the assumption of Airbus support till 2007) the decision was made as a way of making the entire operation more 'robust' (i.e. less of a need to conduct heavy maintenance so often to appease beancounters in lean times).
Of course, with the withdrawal announcement, they could have filled all the charters they could offer.....but it was too late to get AA and AB back into working order and ramp up the operations of the other 5.
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Concorde - Let BA and the Government Know Your Feelings...
Nice sentiment.... but no business whatsoever of the government. BA is a PLC with an obligation to its shareholders! bm
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Tudor - Thanks for a very informative post. BA may rue the day they decided to pull the plug on the magnificent bird. The beancounters may be hoping that these wealthy displaced ex-Concorde passengers will troop obediently into the first class cabins of BA's 74s and 77s, at good profit margins per seat for the airline.
But with the unique differentiator gone, BA is just another 'me too' airline. These passengers may well take their business elsewhere. I rather hope that they do.
SSD
But with the unique differentiator gone, BA is just another 'me too' airline. These passengers may well take their business elsewhere. I rather hope that they do.
SSD
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Keep to the thread
Yeah,
Thanks boys/girls for your positive contribution to this thread so far...or not as the case may be.
Since this thread is about contact - for those that wish - I really don't want to take it down the avenue that the government couldn't have done anything, that Branson wouldn't have wanted to fly them etc. That's for the other Concorde thread and their are plenty that disagree with you. Read those replies and comment there.
Some of us believe that it may be too late but it doesn't hurt to voice our displeasure. Live and let live.
Thanks boys/girls for your positive contribution to this thread so far...or not as the case may be.
Since this thread is about contact - for those that wish - I really don't want to take it down the avenue that the government couldn't have done anything, that Branson wouldn't have wanted to fly them etc. That's for the other Concorde thread and their are plenty that disagree with you. Read those replies and comment there.
Some of us believe that it may be too late but it doesn't hurt to voice our displeasure. Live and let live.
BM.. maybe.. however it was not BA or te then BOAC who paid for concorde, the governemnt and UK taxpayers stumped up the billions !! so i think it is only right the UK tax payer has a say in the demise of concorde, and by judging by various polls including the sky news poll, 97.65% of people think R Branson should have been given an opportunity to fly her again.
Your local Mp or councillor might be a good start
Could someone with some more HTML knowledge than me setup a website that people could sign an electronic "petition" ??
Your local Mp or councillor might be a good start
Could someone with some more HTML knowledge than me setup a website that people could sign an electronic "petition" ??