Won’t it be a shock when a QF and an Alliance pilot share a cockpit and they find out that they actually have a lot in common...

Advert today for type rated E190 Captains and First Officers bases DWN and ADL. Application to include confirmation type rated on E190, when you last flew E190 and base preference.

Can we ask about the coin they’re offering for E190 Capts and FOs?

Alliance EBAs for Qld and SA F100 available on the FWC website show a base rate of $154k for Captains and $106k for FOs. Productivity bonus above 55/57hrs and some other allowances as well. Similar to the award.

Given award rates for F100 and 717 are similar I can’t think of E-Jet rates being substantially more.

We’re resigning ourselves to accepting the award are we? I think you’ll find the 717 contract is closer to $200k for captains.

It is, but it ain’t Cobham employing the pilots this time. I can’t see Alliance offering substantially more pay to fly a 94 seat E190 than a 100 seat F100.

They can offer whatever they feel like and still have a queue a mile long around the corner

Really? Just how many type rated and current E190 pilots are there in Australia?

Those numbers are somewhat underwhelming!

Plenty of stood down QF drivers are finding jobs in other industries paying 6 figures. The opportunity is a great one for some QF people but it may make more sense to use the time diversifying and learning new skills than continue in aviation earning that sort of money. We all love to fly but at what price?

E190, you could probably count them on 2 hands! E170 on the other hand a few more to the mix plus all the unemployed folks that went to the US.

Almost. Is that like being almost pregnant?

Edited, thanks Dicarus!

I guess the answer depends on how many have returned from SkyWest in the U.S. But then not all chose ERJ AFAIK.

Hahahaha, look who is getting their knickers in a twist now!! No venom shown by me, I have no problem with anybody who is a QF pilot unless you know something about me that I dont. Thanks Mr Harvard grad for the business lesson, what would we do without you?

Whats the average amount of monthly hours (in normal times) that an Alliance F100 pilot is flying per month and are the E-Jet pilots expected to do roughly the same, less or more taking the Qantas agreement into account.

Are they? They’re still a lot more than the $0 a lot of redundant airline pilots around the world are making. Those numbers are still more than a lot of GA pilots would be making, the traditional recruitment source for airlines. Still more than a lot of turboprop pilots are making.

For a lot of pilots in aviation those figures will be a step up to fly a Jet in Australia. I think a lot of suitable pilots in the industry would love to fly at that price, especially as the current market is dictating.

I actually agree, which shows how much our industry is screwed, and was even before COVID.

Stood down pilots though are seeing what is out there in the broader economy. $150k ish to command an E Jet just doesn’t cut the mustard for the requirements and responsibilities involved. Heck you can get work on a mine for $110k driving a truck!!!

The average passenger sitting down the back on an Alliance mining charter is earning more than the FO. That’s just wrong :yuk:

You ever worked at those mining sites spending extended time away from the family doing night shifts?

Apples and oranges, talking about entitlements, jeez.

I’ve always said airline pilots and unions needed to be concentrating on the entry level parts of the industry, to ensure conditions there were good enough and career paths into airlines more definite so pilots wouldn’t be racing out of GA into jets as soon as possible. Alas pilots at the top only seem to be interested in feathering their own nests as much as possible, but then scratch their heads wondering why when pilots at the bottom on far worse conditions take jet jobs at lower pay than them.

Especially with what has happened in a particular union yesterday (deserves a thread of it’s own so I won’t say much in this one) I can’t see this situation changing.

Stood down airline pilots with a job to eventually return to may scoff at those conditions, but for a recently redundant GA pilot (how about one of many flying instructors who’ve been recently laid off due to the decimation of flight training in this country) would crawl over broken glass to get into a jet earning almost double their previous salary. Alliance will have no problems finding qualified pilots to fly these jets.

If they still have issues then they use Academy graduates. Every other nation puts 250hr pilots into jets without an issue, it’s even happened in Australia quite frequently over time. $106k plus bonus and allowances for an entry level job that doesn’t require a university degree (that will progress to a 35% payrise when taking command and more when flying widebodies, which sets it apart from truck driving in mines) is something that very few industries can offer, despite some at the top of this industry thinking that’s underpaid.

Problem is you can't afford to pay GA pilots 100K+ because they just don't generate enough revenue. Given the biggest GA aircraft is going to be a 19 seater you only have a limited market of paying customers.

Same with flying instructors. If you had to pay an instructor 150K a year and if they flew 1000 hours that's $150 an hour just for the instructor before you even start an engine.

If you then compare that to the seat cost per hour of an airline pilots, airline pilots are very cheap per seat because there 100+ of them to spread around cost of labour.

Anyway Alliance will have experienced type rated people falling over themselves at $150K for an Ejet regardless. Until people start resigning and going to other operators nothing will change on that front.

Not scoffing, just noting that others working outside aviation currently might have a new perspective on wages vs. the responsibilities and ongoing testing/training/medicals involved with airline flying. I used mining as an example but others are working in finance and government positions earning north of $100k because employers are recognising the skills and attributes they bring.

I only became involved in this thread because of the talk about QF pilots moving into these positions. I’m sure whatever positions made available to Mainline Pilots will have many applicants, even if it may mean relocating to Darwin or Adelaide. I won’t be one of them, nor will many people I speak to. My comments weren’t about GA pilots and whether they’d be interested, that’s a no brainer and irrelevant. :rolleyes:


No worries, let’s do Apples and Apples then and compare the Alliance package which is half the money of the Qantas 737 Pilots being replaced on those routes. COVID has dashed dreams of improving conditions in the industry for many years, but it’s still OK to aspire to something better down the track.

Then go drive a truck. Enjoy your social isolation, sleeping in a donga, ice addiction, and divorce :) They come free with the $110k.

EDIT: Cheers the rookie

* Donga..

You’re missing my point. The qualifications, training, responsibility and ongoing checking are negligible for old mate driving the truck.

well that didn't take long
 

I have been told today that due to almost 100% lobbying from existing Alliance pilots to their management that the plan to allow QF pilots to apply for the E-Jet positions has now been shelved.

In fact any QF pilot that applies will be specifically excluded. Good work TinFHat2.

It's also a dead end job with little possibility for advancement. If the mine was a 45 min drive from a minor city centre the pay would be half.

Wow! Just like that hey? I'd be going for a raise as well then!!🤣

Well I told you that type rated guys were first choice and they were not going to screw over their own work force either so not sure what the problem is there. As for QF pilots I dont see why they should get any more of a look in than say an Emirates, VA, or CX guy all returning home who also need work and have families to support.

Qantas have their own aircraft and can fly their own regional routes. They chose to contract out the work to Alliance due to them having the right aircraft. Its a business decision, however it does not mean Alliance owes any QF pilot a job flying an e-jet. If Qantas dont like that they are free to take their business elsewhere.

Ultimately I wish no bad situation on any of these pilots and their families, including the QF guys and gals and if there are spare seats available then hopefully some of them get employed again

DOn't forget that the old mates down the back of the mining charter are also heading for a pretty gruelling work roster. Most likely 8 or 14 straight 12-hour days. That's 2500-2900 hrs a year. You fly max 100 hrs a month, they're doing minimum those hours every 2 weeks. Their employers don't just give away that $110k.

Please use duty time, I am at work in the crew room and sitting in the cockpit on the ground and walking around the aircraft....
Call it 90 duty a fortnight or 180 hours a month.

I guess this is the problem of the aviation industry. Pilots really do think that they are so special that they deserve special treatment when the pandemic is affecting all other professions in the world.

Was your CASA ATPL exams and type rating exams more difficult than real degrees like engineering or law or medicine?

Just be happy that there are some pilot jobs available that pay north of 100K when majority of pilots are on furlough in the whole world.

You don't wanna apply then fine, let the other aussies who became jobless in the middle east have a shot at these positions. After all, QF folks who are used to special treatment will be ranting throughout the whole flight in tiny Ejets right?

Just suck it up and demand something better when the situation improves. It's not just pilots suffering during the pandemic.

Better yet, go to Canberra and sue China in the federal court. May be Scott Morrison will help you out with that.

lobbying? What are the alliance pilots going to do? Quit?

if QF and Alliance have come to a deal or arrangement for LWOP then that’s what will happen, regardless of what seems right or fair. I’m not saying I agree either way. History shows, if QF want something, that’s what they get. It may well be written into the agreement. Who knows.

i don’t remember reading anywhere that the LWOP was specifically for the ejet. Perhaps it was always the plan to allow shuffling within, and external hires/LWOP fill the gaps.

old TFH really has no idea how these people work. If it was a s simple as ‘lobbying’, there’d be no jet connect, cobham, alliance deal, va and tiger would still be going, no pilots would have copped redundancy etc etc.

I did not say they had not struck some sort of deal. I simply said ultimately at the end of the day it will be an Alliance decision whether they take on QF pilots or not. Regardless of the contract on offer QF dont have that much sway. Who else will they get to do the work? They are losing money using their own aircraft and crew, believe me I know how they work, I flew regionals for many years.

People like you seem to think Qantas just walk into a meeting, throw around a few demands and get what they want. It does not work like that Im afraid and they certainly HAVE ZERO say on how an airline crew their own aircraft. They might put some agreement in place looking for a favour or to help their stood down crew out but ultimately the decision lies with the contract airline, NOT QANTAS!!

They are not going to screw over their own workforce just to please Qantas, I think you need to get of your high horse there. Imagine all the ill will they will have to deal with when QF pilots leave, the job market and economy improve and now you have a seriously pissed of pilot group.

If you think QF will dictate terms on this you are sorely mistaken

I wait with bated breath to see the hundreds of QF pilots soon to be flying all the Alliance E-Jets......How would Alliance survive if QF dont come to the rescue?.

LOL!!

Please tell us why you hate Qantas pilots so much...

Most of us in QF couldn’t give a toss which company we work for, we just want a secure job flying aeroplanes and wish the same for other pilots in other airlines.

Personally I think it’s entirely fair that Alliance pilots/E-Jet pilots are offered the slots before non type rated pilots.

Most of the currently unemployed pilots on the market - who certainly have no aviation derived income and no company to return to after the "geat recovery" unlike the QF pilots - would also not give a toss which company they work for.

Blind Freddy would have no problem understanding the perception of double dipping in an environment that's been hard hit and is going to take a long, long time to get anywhere near where it was.

Lots of moving parts, I hope the present Alliance pilots get a look it (but potentially a cost to move pilots around if you don't need to but would like to), if Alliance management have struck a deal with QF management that includes being required to take on XX number of QF pilots I'm sure that decision will be passed on to Flt Ops for actioning, if left alone Flt Ops have a veritable smorgasboard of ages/experience levels/backgrounds/maybe perceived suitability (do Alliance have those knuckle dragging psycho tests so beloved by HR types??) to recruit from.

IF a deal's been done with QF and they absorb the cost of training a QF pilot who will depart within a few years then QF pilots could be as attractive as anyone else.
If the cost is NOT absorb by QF then QF pilots will be unattractive as a cost to the bottom line when other options/recruits are available.
Simples! :ok:

Consider this, the lowest paid pilot on long haul (787 SO) is currently costing Qantas over 15k a year stood down. If said pilot agrees to 3 years LWOP and Qantas agrees to kick in 30k for training to get them off the books, it’s a win for everyone and do you think Alliance wouldn’t be licking their lips over that? Just remember I used the cheapest example as well.

As for a company not screwing over their workforce to please a large blue chip client... You do work in aviation right?

Plus they just advertised for direct entry Capt and Fo to fly the brand new toys. In my experience, that usually counts as screwing your existing pilots out of an opportunity.

All of this aside, I don’t think the QF thing will matter that much anyway. No matter what’s in the agreement QF will understand that Alliance can’t be expected to crew the whole thing with LWOP pilots who are going to vanish in a couple of years. That’d be poor risk management. Additionally, there just won’t be that many takers for Adelaide and Darwin, most of QF doesn’t live there and won’t move. There’ll be a few QF folk over there just so management can say “look we helped the stood down pilots out” but I wouldn’t get too worried about it, it’ll be a small percentage in the grand scheme of things.

And remember...noone said it would be all QF LWOP. If they offer one position in each rank, they’ve kept their word!

no high horse here. You seem to be so emotive about the whole thing. So much so you’ve gone from denigrating QF pilots on here, and then once you think you’ve ‘got your way’ you’ve wished them the best. Throw the toys out, have a tantrum. What you or I or anyone else says at the end of the day is irrelevant. They are businesses. They will do what is best for them, regardless of the perceived fairness or impact on staff

You contradict yourself from one sentence to the next. If there is "some agreement in place looking for a favour or to help their stood down crew out" then that is having a "say" in who they hire. No one suggests that Qantas have the final determination but they are having a say in who flies the aircraft on their routes, with their customers, in their livery.

TFH2

It is a great victory for all Alliance pilots and for you personally. It shows what can be achieved when you are all motivated strongly on an issue. Hopefully this works for you at EBA time. I personally have never felt hate for people I have never met, but I understand in your case it exists.

A small point of order, the aircraft might be right size etc, but the main reason Alliance pilots are now the chosen ones of the QF group is because you are 60K cheaper then a 717 driver and 100K cheaper then a B737 driver. Those savings will mostly be absorbed in bonus by your bosses and QF mainline bosses so think of that as well

If some of the E-Jets are painted in Qantaslink colours will you refuse to wear the Qantas uniform ? Thats the next battle for you. Good luck !