Hopefully VA and TT guys and gals who actually have no flying jobs rather than those that are on standdown with flying jobs to go back to eventually.

probably the case. Also LWOP for QF will be happening/available as well.

Who’s the pup?

Alliance shares will end the day up 10% making the 12 month return up about 71%. Qantas are down 27.8% for the past 12 months. Virgin well they dropped off the planet.

My bolding. :(

I think Qantas 20% ownership of Alliance may have something to do with the crewing arrangements!!

It would be disappointing if that occurred. Why train them up to fly the E-jet when they’ll just go back to their white hats in 12/18/24 months time, when you’ve got a large number of actual unemployed pilots that will likely take the job for the long term.

You’re assuming that there will be the same number of flying jobs at Qantas to go back to post-covid!

There are still a large number of ex-VA Ejet pilots that are either still stood down, on LWOP (doing non flying work) or redundant that are still waiting for a call from Alliance. Why would there be a need to look at non-endorsed pilots?

It’s replacing QF flying. Why shouldn’t QF pilots be able to get the job’s?

Did the QF pilots get jobs on the 717 that replaced their flying previously...the answer is no, so unfortunately the precedent has been set.

There is no Ejet SIM in Australia as yet and when it gets here Alliance will not have the capability or approvals to do Type ratings so for those reasons alone why would they take non-type rated pilots.

Sure, but this time it seems it’s being offered. Time will tell if it’s a true offer or just words.

Maybe it’s being offered so that there will be no “transmission of business “ argument by the union? With Qantas owning 20% of Alliance???

Maybe nothing is actually being offered and the comments regarding international crew are nothing more than an obvious statement that a number of QF pilots are not working for the foreseeable future and may choose to apply for a position through the normal process.

Maybe people on here are reading too much into it and thinking such comments mean QF will be arranging placements. I don't see that written anywhere.

Nothing is being offered, they are just saying there is a chance. There is a chance QF pilots are not selected too. It's still a chance though!!

It would be kinda funny as it's such a GA thing to say from a company, but since people have careers on the line here it's probably best not to trivialised it. Given it's a new type I would suggest that there will be a few type rated folks required.

I think you will see that it is CEO John Gissing saying he is keen for Qantas International pilots currently not working to get an offer as quoted in the article! So there may be more to it!!

ex the ACCC: Investigation into Qantas’s stake in Alliance Airlines continues....
 

This one (ex the ACCC)- Done, Dusted and of Nil relevance....????, Now.

Just a question....???, is all.

Rgds
S28- BE

an incomplete Extract (with URL's and plastic Cutlery removed...):

Investigation into Qantas’s stake in Alliance Airlines continues

1 June 2020

The ACCC is continuing to investigate Qantas Airways’ (Qantas) (ASX:QAN) acquisition of a 19.9 per cent stake in Alliance Aviation (Alliance) (ASX:AQZ) during these uncertain times in the aviation industry.

Qantas acquired a 19.9 per cent interest in Alliance last year, becoming Alliance’s single biggest shareholder. On 1 August 2019, the ACCC issued a statement of issues....

The ACCC is providing this update in response to queries by various stakeholders. The Australian aviation industry is in a state of major upheaval and now, more than ever, we are concerned that competition by smaller airlines is not hindered. We will continue to seek information from market participants to gauge any impacts on competition arising from Qantas’s stake in Alliance.

Alliance is an important and close competitor to Qantas, particularly in regional markets and for fly-in fly-out services for mining customers. Alliance, through a codeshare arrangement with Virgin, is also Qantas’s only competitor on passenger routes between Brisbane and the important regional centres of Bundaberg and Gladstone.

“Qantas’s decision to complete the acquisition of the 19.9 per cent stake in Alliance without first seeking ACCC clearance means this is an enforcement investigation rather than a standard merger review,” ACCC Chair Rod Sims said.

“The Australian aviation industry remains highly concentrated and it is crucial that competition provided by smaller airlines is maintained long-term.”

“The ACCC has been closely scrutinising the effects of the acquisition of this shareholding by Qantas. Acquiring a strategic stake in a close competitor in such a concentrated market raises clear competition concerns,” Mr Sims said.

The ACCC’s investigation is focussed on the competitive dynamics between Qantas and Alliance, examining whether Qantas’s stake affects Alliance’s ability to raise funds, consider takeovers or participate in commercial ventures, and whether Qantas is attempting to exert influence on Alliance’s decision-making or operations.

“We will consider enforcement action if there is evidence that the Qantas shareholding is compromising Alliance’s ability to be a strong competitor to Qantas, now and in the future,” Mr Sims said.

Qantas has stated publicly that it intends to seek regulatory approval to build on its current shareholding, with a longer-term view of taking a majority position in Alliance.

“Our current view is that any further increase in Qantas’s stake in Alliance is very likely to raise significant competition concerns under the Competition and Consumer Act,” Mr Sims said.

Background

On 1 February 2019, Qantas announced it had acquired a 19.9 per cent shareholding in Alliance, and that it intended to subsequently seek regulatory approval to acquire a majority position. The current market value of the shareholding is estimated to be over $60 million.

Brisbane-based Alliance supplies charter air services to corporate customers in Queensland, Northern Territory and Western Australia; mainly mining and resources companies requiring flights for their fly-in fly-out workforces. Alliance competes strongly with Qantas for this, in its own right or in cooperation with Virgin under the Charter Alliance Agreement.

Alliance and Qantas are also the only operators for regular passenger transport routes between Brisbane and the important regional centres of Bundaberg and Gladstone.
Release number:
107/20
ACCC Infocentre: Use this form to ....
Media enquiries:
Media team - 1300 138 917

Were there several hundred QF pilots stood down because there was ‘no useful work’ at the time??
The answer is no.

Lol, are you seriously quoting John Gissing as a reliable source.....

Under his watch -
Cobham expanded
NAA expanded
Jitconnect AOC dissolved
QLink ZERO opportunities, but multiple base closures
Let’s not mention all the false and broken promises at Jetstar

Exactly!! Use the QF international guys as an absolute last resort. Give the jobs to pilots who need a job and will stay for the long term. QF pilots have been spoilt for too long, let them take the hit this time and invest in people who will stay.

It makes no difference what is the right thing to do or not. Qantas will do what their bean counters tell them to do. QF management couldn't care less about fairness. I don't think fairness is a subject covered in an MBA.

So when did you get your QF unsuccessful letter?
Salty much...

Just dribbling my weeties down my shirt imagining what Bain/VA said when they heard this

F.... .me, ​​​​​​​is there anything Alliance can't do!!!

Probably a good idea about now for Rex to get the Alliance boys and girls on the blower and transition their golden triangle Boeing startup to Jungle Jet wet lease. ASAP.

​​​​ A 2/3 full E190 sorta works. A 2/3 empty 738 doesn't.

Erm my mafs aren’t dat great buuuut

2/3 Ejet don’t equal the same numbers as 2/3 737

But 2/3 of an EJet is approximately 1/3 of a 737.

Zhoottoo said "A 2/3 empty 738"

∴ 2/3 full E190 ≈ 1/3 full 737

Something like that anyway...

Well, that explains why Alliance haven't advertised for any Ejet pilots then. I dare say, once the 3 years is up, QF will have purchased their own Ejets operated by the Qjet folks.

Alliance expanding in TSV. Flights to Cloncurry and Cairns. Going up against Qantas. Not bookable on google flights/webjet etc, what is the rationale, are they hoping that Virgin onsells these flights in the future, or to show ACCC competition is alive and well?

The flights are charters which the client has agreed to release seats to the public. Alliance do this on many other routes.

So how will this work for the QF international pilots? They apply for LWOP at QF and then work under Alliance T&Cs? If so, that would be mean a significant pay cut?

I just don't get it.

Talks are QF pilots who DO have a guaranteed place to go when things pick up will be employed whilst a fair number of pilots who do NOT have anywhere to go will not be considered?

Honest Q: from the airlines point of view what's the benefit?

The unions leave them alone I guess. What’s wrong with promoting the hard working guys and gals already there?

If they do go down this avenue I hope the QF pilots pay in full the type rating and training cost. We all know the first sign of international opening they will do what ever to get back.

It would be a significant pay rise for a stood down A380 pilot. In 3 years he’ll return to Qantas and someone else would fill the E190 job.

Some of the announced flying are routes previously flown by QF mainline. By outsourcing this flying it will keep more QF pilots stood down, cancel training courses and reduce hours.

There are 12 A380’s in the desert and up to 12 E190 coming to fly QF routes. A token few roles flying the jets seems fair enough when you are stood down supposedly due to there being ‘no useful work’ for you to do. Clearly there is useful work to be done, but they are making a business decision (not COVID) to have someone else do it.

again, wish there was a like button

All this discussion, but why should a QF pilot get first go on the E190’s with a complete separate company?

I understand the discussion around the NJS 717’s because it’s fully owned by QF. But now we are talking about a secondary company, doing contract work for QF that is otherwise completely seperate to QF (and the pilot group).

Why the hell should you guys have advantage over the Alliance guys? Why should you have first go over any other new hire to Alliance?

By all means, take LWOP from QF and go work somewhere else. But you should have the same opportunity as any other new joiner to Alliance.

Maybe it’s a legal problem of stand down vs useful work - maybe hard to justify legally any expansion whilst guys are stood down.. maybe cheaper / easier to give them a cheap E jet job than pay them to sit around and do nothing? As much as QF would love to have them all stood down for years, it may not be legal. Whispers I’m hearing saying QF have got their wires crossed in what they will be allowed to get away with. Time will tell?

That still doesn’t answer ScepticalOptomist’s question, as he points out Alliance is in no way part of the QF group, they owe no special treatment to QF pilots than any other applicant.

Too right, if they want to fly an E-Jet for Alliance then they should quit their QF job and apply like everybody else. However if they stay furloughed/ with the intention of returning to QF once things are back to normal then they should be the absolute last choice.

No special favours for them, Alliance owes them nothing!!

Alliance may be part owned by QF but it is not in any way a subsidiary or similar, it is a totally individual - and successful in a brutal business environment - entity who have the right to take on whomever they should choose for purposes of expansion.

There is no reason the cost effectiveness of having pilots stood down at another airline should enter their decision making.

There is no transfer of flying or similar, they would be operating as a contractor using their own staff to fulfil the agreed contract with QF.

The fact there is a "creeping assumption" from some that QF pilots will get any gigs is simply curious when there's a large supply of qualified pilots from different backgrounds that Alliance can consider, many/most whom do NOT have a guaranteed, industrially structured gig to fall back on.

As a sideline goes without saying that hopefully the current Alliance pilots will benefit from any expansion regards assignments etc but that's an internal consideration for Alliance management and its pilot group and no doubt will be a balance between fairness Vs cost effectiveness Vs practicality and whatever else you want to throw into the mix.

Qantas are paying for the introduction into service of the E-Jets. Not Alliance. Its a deal like with the 717s. The aircraft are owned by Qantas but operated by the contractor.

So because of this Qantas gets to decide who flys them. Not Alliance and not whingers about fairness on PPrune. Its a business decision Qantas has made.

The fact that the E-Jet seats will be available for Qantas mainline pilots, has been confirmed in an email by the current Qantas chief pilot.

The email says the endorsement costs will be covered by Alliance, but in reality QF will pay Alliance for this as well.

So the question is, why would QF do this ? Its not from the goodness of their heart. Its so they can keep the majority of the longhaul pilots stood down indefinitely without redundancy provisions applying.

At some point in the next 3-5 years, where mainline pilots are still stood down, but Network, Cobham and Alliance pilots are flying full lines and being paid their full salaries, somebody will challenge the refusal of QF to pay redundancy packages in court. The challenge being that those stood down pilots are actually redundant under the fair work act (they are actually redundant right now TBF)

That court case will fail if the complaining pilot can be proven to be have been 'offered' a position in another 'group company'.

Now my bet is the location of the E-Jet slots will be in places that are not popular with existing pilots who are settled with their families - say Darwin or Cairns - so the majority will not be taken up.

Last point again - QF will own these jets and will decide who flys them. In the same way they decided that mainline pilots could not fly for JQ or Network. This time they have decided otherwise.