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(for the unbiased out there, maybe first take a look at this Anthony Klan's Twitter and decide for yourself if "his reporting is usually unbiased"...
https://mobile.twitter.com/Anthony_K...Ctwgr%5Eauthor The bloke had never tweeted about Virgin (or Qantas) up until a few weeks ago and then went full feral in his attacks on Virgin. Heroically "calling out" Virgin bots, bravely labelling Virgin the most corrupt company in the world.. There's nothing there that shows balance or "unbiased" reporting. Something changed quite literally over night for him.. Couldn't have been his bank account could it? |
Originally Posted by krismiler
(Post 10742402)
the government would want a counter balance to any demands from the QF unions for excessive pay increases from what would be an all powerful monopoly airline, capable of bringing Australia to a stand still if its demands weren't met . Divide and rule.
Australians have shown a willingness to travel on low cost, foreign carriers of questionable safety for some time now. Most of those carriers would love to have a bite at our relatively high yield domestic market. |
TimmyTee, your post maybe correct in what you say in him just launching into Virgin now and perhaps has an interest, we don't know, but is anything he has written about them not factual?
You can criticize his motives but you would be more effective in proving his information to be wrong. I'm in favour of keeping VA people employed , but it's up to the major shareholders first and foremost to stump up the cash. |
In my junk email this morning was this incredible offer! Not quite up there with a Nigerian scam, but surely sailing close to the wind to be encouraging any expenditure on travel at the moment? I suppose the odd mug will see this as a deal not to be missed...
Dear Velocity member, We want to let you know about some important changes we’re making to Velocity Global Wallet® from 4 May 2020 under our new Product Disclosure Statement (PDS). * We’re reducing fees you pay when using your Velocity Global Wallet® card, including removing the 2.25% currency conversion fee2 (foreign exchange rates apply), supplementary card issue fee, and the $1.95 ATM transaction fee. * You’ll earn 1 Velocity Point for every AU$4 spent in Australia on qualifying purchases.1 * No more ATM transaction fees when withdrawing cash in Australia and overseas.3 * We’re introducing a new load method via VISA/ Mastercard which will have a 0% load fee when loading into a foreign currency wallet, or 0.5% when loading into your AUD. The updated PDS also includes the following important changes: * Your Overseas earn rate remains the same, 2 Velocity Points for every AU$1 spent, on Qualifying Purchases. * You will now earn 1 Velocity Point for every AU$4 spent, on Qualifying Purchases in Australia.1 * The Inactivity Fee will change to 0.5% of the Available Balance, with a minimum of AU$1 for accounts that have been inactive for 12 months. * BPAY will still be FREE when you load into a Foreign Currency Wallet, and will have a fee of 0.5% of Funds Credited when you load into your Australian Wallet, with a minimum of AU$1 per Load. * We’ve updated section 17.5 to indicate the assumptions you might be liable for losses arising from Unauthorised Transaction if you contributed to those losses through fraud, theft, illicit use or by inappropriate use of the card and PIN. These assumptions only apply to a very small number of transactions, losses will still be covered for most customers. * We’ve updated the definition of Qualifying Purchases that allow you to earn Velocity Points, and included a section to explain you might stop earning Velocity Points if you use the product in a fraudulent or illicit way. * We’ve updated the section where we describe what happens with Card Inactivity and Account Closure |
Lifetime Virgin Australia Lounge Memberships for sale; cheap. Best offer accepted.
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Virgin seeks statement of confidence
Chief executive Paul Scurrah is seeking “a statement of confidence from government as quickly as we can, in much the same as they would do for a bank”. |
Has anyone heard or read anything from the major shareholders and their position on this? Are they just sitting back hoping we will let them of the hook before making a decision?
I doubt the government is going to blink. Would the governments of Singapore, Abu Dhabi or China entertain extending such assistance for any foreign backed airline operating in their jurisdictions? I think we know the answer to that. I want to see VA jobs saved, been there with Ansett. It's horrible, but I just cannot see our government being on the hook for 1.4 billion without getting commitment from the overseas interests first. |
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It takes nothing more than the stroke of a pen & foreign AOC's will allow domestic sectors. AirAsia and Lion Air have set up subsidiary airlines throughout Asia, Australia would be a nice fit into their network, possibly through a Darwin hub which would allow an Australian domestic operation to feed in passengers and allow one stop connections from BNE/SYD/MEL to Asian cities without having to operate A330/B787s ie the Jetstar/Jetstar Asia model. CAPA figure show the Lion group having 310 aircraft and the AirAsia group having 237 aircraft and both have large future orders. Virgin are on around 100 at the moment. Kicking off a serious operation in Australia with around 40 aircraft would certainly be within Lion Air's capability if Virgin goes under. Any subsidiary within Australia would have to employ Australian staff and be subject to CASA oversight. The 2011 grounding of Tiger Australia would discourage anyone thinking of cutting corners for quick profits. Whilst Lion Air don't fly to Australia at present, its subsidiaries Malindo and Batik do, however Australian government employees are banned from using them. There could be problems selling connecting tickets if the first half of the journey was subject to an Aussie AOC and the next half on a foreign AOC not meeting CASA standards. Possibly, popular destinations such as Bali could be operated by the Australian subsidiary instead. Qantas won't be allowed a monopoly, even if it gets nationalised and fares are regulated by the government, the unions would be in too strong a position if they could simply ground the whole country if their demands weren't met. There must be an alternative, either bail out Virgin or allow another operator to quickly fill the gap if they go under. |
In return, can Scurrah offer a ‘statement of confidence’ from VA that in return for financial assistance from the Government VA would prioritise looking after its staff while also boning the EM team and hopeless Board? It’s a two-way street and Scurrah would have to bring something to the table, something that is detailed and outlines how the legacy issues that have lead to the current malaise have been put to pasture and will not return. The only other real alternative for the government is to let Virgin go broke and offer AOC waivers for a foreign entrant. Failing that it will be a Qantas monopoly for a long time to come, given the current state of the world aviation industry. |
Air Asia? They are in a horrible position, unprofitable even before corona, bleeding cash, unable to pay leases, very few assets to sell, under investigation for corruption (Airbus bribes), and offering ridiculous fares like $181 for unlimited 12mths travel to Malaysian based loyalty members in an attempt to get some cash.
https://www.traveller.com.au/airasia...navirus-h1m73n No doubt Lion group is under the same pressure with a huge fleet of leased aircraft with very limited ability to pay, and limited assets to borrow against. The same goes for low cost airlines all around the world that have generally operated on tight margins with everything leased. I don’t think it will be long before leasing companies start repossessing huge numbers of aircraft due to the inability of airlines to pay leases or even ensure aircraft are stored and maintained appropriately. |
"IF" VA got the $1.4blll loan under whatever terms how will this fix what was already a floundering Airline pre all this hysteria and fear? Virgins where bleeding $$$$ & they where good at it, the black hole in the VA bucket is still there and growing bigger! Personally I can't see them coming back from this. RIP -(
Its a brave new world out there coming! |
I keep coming back to the same question. If they aren't profitable now, how will they be profitable post-COVID19 with an extra $1.4b in debt? They can't, and they won't. Fold the company now so that workers get what they are entitled to, and hopefully the administrators can save something.
I don't follow the argument of "they were going to be profitable in x years". Yeah! Just like the governments budget will be back in surplus in x years! Look how well that always turns out. Scurrah is clinging at straws here, and it's his job so fair enough. But the Australian tax payer shouldn't be bailing out a foreign (government) owned company when the major (foreign) shareholders are coming up with nothing. |
Scurrah appears to be in panic mode. History will show he did little to restructure since he was appointed over 12 months ago. As little as 3 weeks ago he did not understand the seriousness of the situation. In one of my posts I referred to an announcement he made as being a weak effort. Now he appears to be shoring up his position as the collapse of VA will not look good on his C.V for future employment. A little like Gary Toomey. A rooster one day, feather duster the next.
If Scurrah thinks he can get a letter of comfort or a statement of confidence from the Government he is dreaming. Even HostPlus Superannuation will not get anything from Canberra. As I have indicated previously it will be a slow uncomfortable wind down unless the current owners throw more money in the bottomless pit. I believe they will walk away from VA. |
Originally Posted by B772
(Post 10743236)
Scurrah appears to be in panic mode. History will show he did little to restructure since he was appointed over 12 months ago. As little as 3 weeks ago he did not understand the seriousness of the situation. In one of my posts I referred to an announcement he made as being a weak effort. Now he appears to be shoring up his position as the collapse of VA will not look good on his C.V for future employment. A little like Gary Toomey. A rooster one day, feather duster the next.
If Scurrah thinks he can get a letter of comfort or a statement of confidence from the Government he is dreaming. Even HostPlus Superannuation will not get anything from Canberra. As I have indicated previously it will be a slow uncomfortable wind down unless the current owners throw more money in the bottomless pit. I believe they will walk away from VA. To be fair to those fanboys, SIA also did have the opportunities to 'buy out' VA in the past, notably during the NZ exit, SIA simply chose not to. I suspect that would've paid off for SIA in the long term rather than mindlessly buy a long-term basketcase riddled with billions in debt. |
Quite frankly I hope all airlines survive, though I hope all the airports drop dead. Atrocious leasing costs, landing fees etc. Funny all car parking is free though.
Everyone on this site should be attacking these hypocrites first not the airlines. |
Originally Posted by Turnleft080
(Post 10743260)
Quite frankly I hope all airlines survive, though I hope all the airports drop dead. Atrocious leasing costs, landing fees etc. Funny all car parking is free though.
Everyone on this site should be attacking these hypocrites first not the airlines. Make no mistake, Scurrah will go, and then pop up again somewhere else and/or on a couple of Boards. But he screws around for 12 months. Virgins position was dire when the little Italian jumped ship. Scurrah has played tiddly winks when he should have ripped the guts out of the center of the business to get it back on track. Staff should be rightly pissed at how he has spent precious dollars on foolish advertisements trying to shore up public sentiment. Problem is, Virgin hasn’t been hard done by Qantas, it’s been hard done by its own Board and Executives, and now the chickens have come home to roost. It is almost criminal. |
In the Uk, Virgin Atlantic are also seeking a government bail out with no sign as yet that it's likely to be forthcoming, most airlines will be on the ropes by the end of May anyway and with the current financial situation, no government will be able to bail out every company in every sector of the economy. Delaying aid forces shareholders to contribute their money first and undertake unpopular restructuring to cut costs, governments will step in at the last minute and aid those still standing so that essential services can be maintained.
British Airways will probably come through this though it will need help and possibly even be nationalised. The difference compared to Qantas is that air travel within the UK isn't vitally important. The country is small, densely populated and has an extensive road and rail network. The UK is a major hub with multiple foreign airlines flying in so there are many alternatives available for those wanting to travel internationally. KLM fly to more UK airports than British Airways do, and enable connections through Amsterdam. Australia is as dependent on air travel as the USA which has given aid to it's major airlines, The Americans are no doubt concerned about a monopoly if two of the big three go under and can't be favouring one a single carrier. |
Paul Scurrah will not be happy to hear EL AL who are on the verge of collapse have been told by the Israeli Finance Ministry there request for $700M to stay afloat has been rejected. Anyone who had less than 5 years of service regardless of their position was laid off last week.
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Qantas won't be allowed a monopoly, even if it gets nationalised and fares are regulated by the government, the unions would be in too strong a position if they could simply ground the whole country if their demands weren't met. |
It's also quite possible that a doomsday rescue package has already been worked out and is currently locked in a filing cabinet in Canberra. At the last minute, after weeks of pleading when it's obvious the airline is about to go under it will be unveiled. A reduction in size, redundancies, pay and conditions slashed, take it or leave it. A deal that would probably be voted down at the moment as unacceptable would be welcomed by employees and shareholders.
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The doomsday rescue package HAS been worked out. It’s called 2001 REPLAY.......
The market will take years to recover, why have 2 players painfully limping on rather than one moderately strong player? Control the monopoly with regulation. Guarantee VAH employee entitlements. What Scurrah & co don’t get is the sound of silence. If govt were ready with a definitive solution, we would have it. The lack of one indicates there will likely not be a rescue. Its kinda getting awkward now, I suspect many in govt & elsewhere are just wanting VA to go away and quietly disappear. Then they can focus on entitlements and controlling QF. Maybe Scurrah does in fact get that, hence the ads, but it ain’t going to change anything. Meanwhile, the poor bloody employees are seeing their entitlements whittled away week by week. Hope won’t help pay bills, redundancy will. |
Guarantee VAH employee entitlements. https://www.ag.gov.au/industrial-rel...s/default.aspx Meanwhile, the poor bloody employees are seeing their entitlements whittled away week by week. |
I don't think the guarantee covers all staff scenarios - it's a safety net of last resort only where extended leave etc is involved. Won't cover superannuation.
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I can see further industry support on the way...a package that supports the airports as critical infrastructure as well as the airlines. SYD airport will not be allowed to fail and it has massive debt repayments approaching. I note QF have stopped paying the airports. I suspect a package that addresses this will be forthcoming. It's not what Virgin want, but it controls more of the fixed costs for airlines and the lost revenue for the airports.
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Spoiler
They are already guaranteed. Makes a certain member of the executive teams $9 000 000 bonus last year just because they bought back their amazing Frequent Flyer program look pretty galling. I wonder what they value it at now? |
ampclamp. Whilst being interviewed on ABC breakfast radio Paul Scurrah effectively said 90% of the shareholders in VA indicated there were no funds available for VA. He went on to say VA were attempting to raise from other sources. In my opinion the only option would be to sell owned assets such as aircraft. If the assets were required in the future it could be a sale and leaseback. As there is uncertainty re the future of VA the lease rates would be prohibitive on a sale and leaseback arrangement.
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The Morrison government appears to have ruled out any further support for the aviation sector, having already piled millions of dollars into an industry that has suffered at the hands of coronavirus. Deputy Prime Minister Michael McCormack insists he wants all of Australia's airlines to come through the other side of the pandemic. "We realise it's going to be very, very tough for them. COVID-19 is having a devastating effect on regional, domestic and international travel and we want to make sure that our aviation industry is protected," he told parliament on Wednesday. "That's why the federal government is providing and has provided more than a billion dollars of support for aviation." But Labor is urging the Morrison government to extend an additional financial lifeline to Virgin Australia, otherwise it will put hundreds of jobs at risk and damage the two major airline structure that has successfully supported the economy. Virgin Australia, which is foreign owned, is seeking a $1.4 billion line of credit and a "statement of confidence" similar to what the government would grant the major banks. Labor's transport spokeswoman Catherine King told parliament, during a debate on the $130 billion JobKeeper package, the government must extend a lifeline to Virgin. "If it does not, it is taking an active decision to see one of our major airlines fail in this country, and that will have significant consequences for hundreds of workers in the aviation sector and across our economy to come," she said. Virgin Australia boss Paul Scurrah warned the nation cannot afford to emerge from the pandemic with just a monopoly airline. "We are not looking for a bailout," he said in an interview with The Australian. "We are asking the government for a bridging facility and working with them to make sure there is confidence that people can look forward with certainty that there will be a competitive and robust airline industry coming out of the crisis." Virgin Australia is 90 per cent owned by Etihad, Singapore Airlines, two Chinese conglomerates and Richard Branson's Virgin group. Prime Minister Scott Morrison has previously cast doubt on the prospect of a lifeline. Ms King welcomed the cash injection the government has already offered to around a dozen regional airlines and said it indicates the government is prepared to cushion businesses through this crisis. "Labor believes the government must be flexible and be open to financially supporting our large aviation companies, including extending or guaranteeing lines of credit or taking an equity stake in the industry," she said. "Such interventions will ensure that when the industry bounces back - and it will - government can recoup on its investment. Mr Scurrah said the future of carrier's 9500 staff was dependent on the government's support. "The federal government wants to emerge from this crisis with two airlines," he said. "And without us, it is not going to have one. We all know what would happen if there was a monopoly." |
It'll be a few years before there's enough demand for 2 airlines, IMHO.
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Originally Posted by The Bullwinkle
(Post 10743398)
I've generally been a conservative voter all my life (although I did vote for Keating) but if this is the current state of play, I'll certainly have to consider my options at the next election!
PS being honest that the owners - whose political/business crossovers are extensive - will not kick in funds could be seen as laying the (final) cards on the table. There will never be a monopoly if VA go bust - first of all you need a travelling public TO monopolise, either government will facilitate the growth/induction of a new player (Alliance/Lion/PussyVirgin returning to its basics under the Tiger AOC....you know, the good old days when VA made money before delusions of adequacy/capability set in...whomever) and probably force QF to play nice until the market is better represented. The owners aren't prepared to shore up their investment and wait/hope better days - yet the Australian govt should?? Yeah/nah....IMHO. |
SMH storey up now, labour has put pressure on the Government to bail VA out with the 1.4B they asked for. Why should the Australian tax payer bail out a foreign owned business!
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Originally Posted by Mach E Avelli
(Post 10743092)
In my junk email this morning was this incredible offer! Not quite up there with a Nigerian scam, but surely sailing close to the wind to be encouraging any expenditure on travel at the moment? I suppose the odd mug will see this as a deal not to be missed...
Dear Velocity member, We want to let you know about some important changes we’re making to Velocity Global Wallet® from 4 May 2020 under our new Product Disclosure Statement (PDS). * We’re reducing fees you pay when using your Velocity Global Wallet® card, including removing the 2.25% currency conversion fee2 (foreign exchange rates apply), supplementary card issue fee, and the $1.95 ATM transaction fee. * You’ll earn 1 Velocity Point for every AU$4 spent in Australia on qualifying purchases.1 * No more ATM transaction fees when withdrawing cash in Australia and overseas.3 * We’re introducing a new load method via VISA/ Mastercard which will have a 0% load fee when loading into a foreign currency wallet, or 0.5% when loading into your AUD. The updated PDS also includes the following important changes: * Your Overseas earn rate remains the same, 2 Velocity Points for every AU$1 spent, on Qualifying Purchases. * You will now earn 1 Velocity Point for every AU$4 spent, on Qualifying Purchases in Australia.1 * The Inactivity Fee will change to 0.5% of the Available Balance, with a minimum of AU$1 for accounts that have been inactive for 12 months. * BPAY will still be FREE when you load into a Foreign Currency Wallet, and will have a fee of 0.5% of Funds Credited when you load into your Australian Wallet, with a minimum of AU$1 per Load. * We’ve updated section 17.5 to indicate the assumptions you might be liable for losses arising from Unauthorised Transaction if you contributed to those losses through fraud, theft, illicit use or by inappropriate use of the card and PIN. These assumptions only apply to a very small number of transactions, losses will still be covered for most customers. * We’ve updated the definition of Qualifying Purchases that allow you to earn Velocity Points, and included a section to explain you might stop earning Velocity Points if you use the product in a fraudulent or illicit way. * We’ve updated the section where we describe what happens with Card Inactivity and Account Closure They’re still employing someone to come up with that crap? |
[QUOTE][ampclamp. Whilst being interviewed on ABC breakfast radio Paul Scurrah effectively said 90% of the shareholders in VA indicated there were no funds available for VA. He went on to say VA were attempting to raise from other sources/QUOTE]
Thanks B772, that is the first I've heard. Interesting. Given it is a publicly traded company, that info, even if implied, is surely market sensitive. If it is the case, the market needs to be equally informed. I think most holders likely assume the major holders will not support VAH any longer, but revealing that in an interview could be a breach of asx rules. |
[QUOTE=ampclamp;10743585]
[ampclamp. Whilst being interviewed on ABC breakfast radio Paul Scurrah effectively said 90% of the shareholders in VA indicated there were no funds available for VA. He went on to say VA were attempting to raise from other sources/QUOTE] Thanks B772, that is the first I've heard. Interesting. Given it is a publicly traded company, that info, even if implied, is surely market sensitive. If it is the case, the market needs to be equally informed. I think most holders likely assume the major holders will not support VAH any longer, but revealing that in an interview could be a breach of asx rules. |
I’ve got many friends with Virgin and I really feel for them and their coworkers. I wish them the best out of all of this and hope they do make it through.
But let’s get real: we have a liberal government in power who are notorious for privatising everything and anything they can get their hands on. Government ownership of an airline goes against everything they believe in. But it will be a Monopoly you say? Yes I’m sure that was a big concern when they privatised our airports, power stations, etc etc. |
Plenty of good mates in VA. It’s not their fault. But a foreign owned outfit that hasn’t been able to get their stuff sorted after how long, beggars belief. If their OWN investors won’t stump up to keep their interest afloat, why the F should my tax paying dollars do it? Does it pass the pub test. Hell no.
Bit over the campaign on social media to lobby the government too. Bloody upset so much for my mates, but at the end of the day you flog something so much, it will stop.....most will comprehend this. |
Originally Posted by Flava Saver
(Post 10743776)
Plenty of good mates in VA. It’s not their fault. But a foreign owned outfit that hasn’t been able to get their stuff sorted after how long, beggars belief. If their OWN investors won’t stump up to keep their interest afloat, why the F should my tax paying dollars do it? Does it pass the pub test. Hell no.
As it currently stands as a business, VA has negative value. The shareholders know this better than everyone else and dont want to throw in more good money in after bad money. If they thought it had positive value they would be willing to try to save the business by injecting capital. If they didnt have the funds available then they would monetise their "valuable" shareholding by selling to another investor - but you cant sell something that has negative value. Scurah is doing what any good minded CEO would do - trying to save the company for the benefit of the staff. |
Originally Posted by Ragnor
(Post 10743543)
SMH storey up now, labour has put pressure on the Government to bail VA out with the 1.4B they asked for. Why should the Australian tax payer bail out a foreign owned business!
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we have a liberal government in power who are notorious for privatising everything and anything they can get their hands on. Privitisation in Australia |
Originally Posted by John Citizen
(Post 10743813)
Actually privitisation in Australia was started by the Hawke Labor government.
Privitisation in Australia I think you’ll find monopolies like Sydney Airport Corp have Liberal fingerprints all over it. But I could be wrong. And for the record, I’ve voted AGAINST both sides over the years and dislike them all. Sorry for the politics. |
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