Amazing how many people on here using “tax payer dollars” instead of self interest and career progression as their reasons for which their tiny competitor should be deprived of help to continue trading.

Better off saying “can’t wait for them to collapse I’ll have a good chance of fast tracking my command that was stolen by those pesky JQ pilots”.

Just wait and see the low ball conditions that come in after Virgin and good luck seeing another payrise after that! Alan will get his barrel out for you then! Project Sunrise? More like project Sunset!

Children of Alan indeed, hating him one minute loving him the next.

If believing that is helping you get through this, and I really hope you guys do, then each to his own.

Nobody I work with, (not that I’m working anymore) has suggested anything that could even be remotely construed as pleasure or some sort of perverse satisfaction in what VA are currently enduring. Personally I think we will be there before too long as well.

I have a lot of dear friends across a lot of departments at VA and I call them every day to see how they are. They call me and offer the same support.
It’s horrible this whole thing has been turned into a VA vs QF thing. Personally I think it’s unnecessarily been portrayed that way, but with time and emotion has now become some sort of self sustaining force that has gotten out of control.

Anyhow, not that you seem prepared to listen to anybody from the evil galactic empire, but I extend to you and ALL of your colleagues nothing but positive thoughts and a desire to see all of us back at work

What crap....

Im with QF. No-one, and I repeat, no-one that I know in QF wants Virgin to fail; we all have mates in Virgin. Everyone I know is just trying to get by and make sense of this stand-down situation. To suggest that some of us are seeing this whole situation as an opportunity for “fast tracking command” is ludicrous.

Agreed. Doesn’t make sense as there will be no Commands for fast tracking. We are entering a Depression. Just think about it for a minute - Delta is losing $60m per day, United $100m per day. The Orange Man has agreed to a $25b bailout yet United said it will still go to the wall. Bringing it back to Australia, a paltry $719m is on offer. Peanuts, and not enough. VA is gone. If this situation were to go on for another 6 months QF will be in the same position. Businesses, travellers, holiday makers, tourism and market confidence will not return the day that the announcement ‘COVID free’ is made. Nobody will have any money. We are in for years of pain....

..and, just like that, the Prophet of Doom arrives.

BRITISH TURN ON RICHARD BRANSON OVER FAILURE TO HELP STAFF

written by Dylan Nicholson March 20, 2020Sir Richard Branson is facing a mounting backlash in his home country over his decision to order Virgin Atlantic staff to take eight weeks of unpaid leave and then ask for a government bailout.

MPs and the press have attacked the British Virgin Group founder, estimated to be worth £11.2 billion, for not spending his personal fortune to help employees.

​​​​​​“Eight weeks at the £94 statutory sick pay would cost £754 per employee. There are 8,571 employees in Virgin Airlines. If all of them took eight weeks unpaid leave that would be a cost of £6.4 million."

Its amazing isn’t it, the Pied Piper has finally been recognised for the parasite that he is. About time the Branson acolytes woke up to the fact that he is in it for himself and couldn’t give a rats arse about the employees.

That comment shows just how ignorant you are Cinderella. It’s ok, you go to bed tonight and dream about nice things, old Para is being pessimistic again. Come talk to me in 2 years time mate! See you then. Cheers

Cinderella...? :confused:

It's sad but it looks like VAs days are numbered, with new beginnings comes new opportunities and ways of looking st things. As a regular passenger (and one time pilot) I'd actually love to see this downtime in the industry to fast track the removal of restrictions on AU/NZ borders, allowing seamless transition between countries from domestic terminals. This allows both ANZ and QF to compete truly and fairly across both countries, and may just allow both carriers to survive domestically in the new post-Covid world.

Agreed!
He was once famous for saying “look after your employees and they will look after your business”
If there was ever a time to live by your words this would be it.

I have a lot of good mates in VAH, many ex AN who really don’t deserve this twice....

But.. I’ll call a spade a spade. It was DJ that, along with Impulse started the pilot race to the bottom in this country. Bit rich to suggest they are now the buttress against low pay...

The car industry was a little different. It provided a manufacturing base and the ENTIRE world subsidises it's car companies, the US by about 10 times what we did, Germany 3-4 times what we did. The government just made a conscious decision to stop subsidising, put them on an uneven playing field and let it collapse essentially. Being subsidiaries, they just pulled out and closed up shop. Hold and Ford building cars that no one wanted was a failure of management but in some ways, an excuse, as thousands of Ford Territories were sold and lots of Commodores and associated models.

We kind of have the reverse here now because with the airlines, we don't subsidise them (except for some regional routes that wouldn't be offered by anyone otherwise) but every other damn country that has harangued successive Australian Governments into liberalising aviation has RETAINED ownership control of its airlines so they were full of crap and before anyone declares open skies and letting SQ in, yeh, of course SQ pushes that barrow because they come from an Island the size of a postage stamp and have no domestic network to use as a base so they want to go around and cannibalise everyone else's market and cry 'free trade'. It would be a different song if they were on a large land mass with a big domestic network.

I think it's more likely the JQ 787s will go to QF, who will offload the A330-200s. If the downturn is that severe, they may be able to get rid of all the A330s and with the 747s gone it will be a mainline A380, 787, 737 fleet, with perhaps the A350 coming in to do Sunrise if it goes ahead and replacing the A380 sooner rather than later if the one-stops are as profitable as PER-LHR.

Of course, the problem will be who will want to buy the A330s and A380s. This could offer the opportunity for a post-Covid write-down of their value and some tax breaks.

I was thinking the same thing. If this new bloke is so brilliant then he might want to demonstrate more professional communication standards... in the last week we have seen the following:
- Complaining to the ACCC for statements made by Qantas suggesting they don't have enough cash and insisting that they have $1Bn available and can weather the storm;
- If that's true then why, within days of basically saying everything's hunky-dory why would it be necessary, without warning, to make Tiger's entire pilot group redundant?;
- Not even a week after the initial complaint about Qantas' comments, insists they need $1.4Bn from the Government to keep afloat - so, in other words, Qantas was correct? (the defence for any alleged damage via words is truth);
- Now, so desperately short of cash and dying in a ditch without $1.4Bn from the government, they run FULL PAGE COLOUR Ads in major newspapers??? Not a good look when you're crying poor.

Putting the debate about whether or not to save it (VA) aside, at the very least, they score a 2/10 for professionalism in the mixed messages and contradictions of the last week alone.

Yes, weasel word titles and too many 'specialists' and 'advisers' that are neither in practice and contribute little other than ensuring the standard weasel words are worked into every meeting.

Almost as silly as some titles like Guest Services Operator... what are the operating... conjures imagery of someone behind a check in or service desk pulling levers, turning dials and watching the row of coloured lights come on and go off while bursts of steam emanate from around them and out pops a boarding pass into a slot.

Technically that's not true, they haven't been bailed out. They've been provided with capital/loan by the government. They were profitable before this and would have continued to be. As good a fit as NZ would be I doubt it'll happen because I don't see a Kiwi government saying "Hold on, we just extended you a loan and you want to have another crack at the AU market again..."

Interesting comments about Branson .... he is the smallest shareholder in Virgin Atlantic, Delta and KLM-Air France own 80%. He is also the smallest shareholder in Virgin Australia. He is very good at selling his brand, but not a major player in aviation anymore.

That KLM/AF deal fell through in late 2019. Branson is still 51% shareholder of VS.

Source: https://www.ft.com/content/0a67e5f4-...3-6303645ac406

Yes VA are shaky. Basically because of its debt and the close to zero turnover. Not here to bash any other operators, but ALL airlines are in trouble if this thing goes on, no one is immune. All that airlines can do is sell assets or refinance airframes in the hope that will see them through. The only difference between VA QF and JQ is how long it will take before the administrators will walk in. Stick together everyone, no point ripping into you comrades when the enemy is over the fence.

Exactly Voz1. I want both airlines to survive.

It would be interesting if VA's big shareholders decided to chip in a few billion between them (as unlikely as that may be) the shoe would definitely be on the other foot in the "war of attrition" some seem to promote.

Oh yes. The initial Virgin Blue cadre. Training Captains paid less than incumbent F/O's at AN & QF. Sure pay rises came; only after AN's demise. And the behaviour of "some" of the VB staff when the door shut at Ansett ranged from spiteful to immature. Now this was all long ago and Virgin is loaded up with great folks and I wish them well.


I'm not sure of a bail-out of a business failing anyways? I''m flabbergasted at the cost to government and we are really just past the beginning and will now face further unknowns that may resonate towards national security.

Will nations on our doorstep fail? What will China do in the region? Will the disaster unfolding affect the US military budget? Forcing nations to have to pay more for their own security?

We are going to need a plan as a nation coming out of this pandemic and there will be expensive considerations including health care and national security- along with targeted stimulus. How can government prop up failing business that were going to fail anyways?

Simply, they can't.

Be careful of what might happen in Indonesia if this creates panic and lots of refugees headed our way...

in the current Clown world that outcome would not surprise anyone, stuck at home with the threats of $ fines.

Indonesia is a little more complex than that historically. Not an unlikely scenario; though far more unsavoury domestic issues and medium term security issues likely to arise. PNG could require expensive assistance and most smaller island nations too ( devastated in 1917 flu ). You'd like to think China would help without strategic motive though their move into the region another scenario commanding government funds for security.

Australians need to back up Australians in the future more so than in anytime in recent generations. Not wishing ill on Virgin employees. I hope some logical and less painful outcome can emerge. I recall a shrunken Ansett operation with A320's in administration and Fox-Lew consortium seeking government guarantees. It was a bit of a con though something along these lines will no doubt be considered by the current government.

I don’t think China does anything these days without Strategic motive. Particularly in the territories surrounding Australia.

Do you think any country helps another without a strategic motive?

I do wonder what a 50% cut to the VA operation would look like. Can leased aircraft be returned without too much penalty? Or simply sell the owned airframes? The idea is to reduce the cash burn rate and be ready to increase domestic capacity when demand is allowed to rise. Whether that is enough to stave off administration who knows.

Surely a "VA mk II" (minus the Virgin name) would be using the owned VA 737s as the administrators such for a buyer of what's left of VA in a post-administration scenario.

On a related note: VAi has 4x owned 777-300ERs (registed to Virgin Blue Leaseco (VB Leasco Pty Ltd)), those 777ws will eventually have to be sold off (with the returns sent to creditors) as it will be likely that VAi as a whole will be folded up and dissolved if the "mk II" post-administration operation is basically a domestic-only replacement for VA.

No, but an Authoritarian Ruled China with expansionist desires is certainly not the country I’d ever be remotely expecting it from.

Led Zeppelin, VA 737 domestic op's are profitable under normal circumstances. These are not however normal circumstances. QF will be bleeding much faster than VA, but they can sustain that bleeding for longer. There's a reason QF had to immediately pull the 1.4 billion injection card.

PBA - The problem is that Virgin is bleeding cash with fixed overheads, and according to the last downgrade:

So, if they do go into Administration & a VA Mk II is on offer, beware who you sign on with.

From the Ansett Mk II experience, the employees would've worked for Ttesna & the assets would've been owned by a company called Queenscross. Sydney Airport Corp. were the only ones who baulked at that arrangement & it fell over like a house of cards. People will still try & take advantage of you!

A low cost VA mark II would still be more preferable than the existing debt ridden company. It would be a formidable competitor to Jetstar. The Virgin name would probably disappear though.

Unfortunately, comparisons are unavoidable with the last days of Ansett.

Structural problems within the companies being brought to a head by a major world event, though this time it's far more serious.
Both were losing money however Ansett were more encumbered by unions and high staff rates of pay.
Calls for government bailouts, though this time QF are included.

If history repeats, then the next step would be to restructure into a smaller operation with reduced aircraft types, numbers and routes. Even then the consortium trying to rescue Ansett wanted government guarantees of profitability, when these weren't forthcoming they pulled the plug.

However Virgin is a much leaner operation than Ansett and the problems aren't as deep routed, given that the government will want to maintain a competitor to QF they will probably back a reduced sized and heavily restructured operation limited to B737 domestic flying. Done correctly this could be profitable, and a convincing argument made for a rescue package on the basis of sweeping changes leading to profitability in the medium term.

All previous projections are now out the window and any forecasts will need to be made based on the basis of a vastly changed operating environment in the short to medium term.

One factor heavily in favour of Virgin is that if things reach the stage where Qantas has to be nationalised, the government would want a counter balance to any demands from the QF unions for excessive pay increases from what would be an all powerful monopoly airline, capable of bringing Australia to a stand still if its demands weren't met . Divide and rule.

This article is well worth reading. A devastating take-down!

https://www.anthonyklan.com/aviation

Great article. Klan has been reporting on aviation matters for some time and his reporting is usually unbiased and factual while being brutal as well. Virgin have tried to ride on QF’s coattails for years. Always copying the opposition airline. Always sulking when they think they are being hard done by. Scurrah is simply copying that mentality but it isn’t working this time around. The Government is right, why bail out a company with taxpayer money when the company hasn’t paid tax for years while at the same time it’s executives have raked in millions for themselves each year? And, it is mostly foreign owned!! I feel sorry for the staff who are not, and never been part of the executive management group. But your bosses at the top are the ones who have failed you. CEO’s, Board members - all abject failures that have brought the airline down.

It will be interesting to see what the Government does but it would be a surprise if they bail them out. If the shareholders won't do it then I can't see the Government being levered into doing it to keep the air fare. Next will be Airports, Travel Agents, Cruise Ship companies and other businesses that consider themselves essential services and critical to the economy. Post Ansett it took about 12 months for there to be a reasonable presence from VB at the time but at no stage did they provide any real competition to QF particularly in Business Class.

In regards to not being like Ansett lets see they have:

• A complicated and mixed up fleet which evolved for VB out of a single type - Tick
• Shareholders that don't want to foot the bill - Tick
• I think if you do a comparison on the Pilots pays they will be very similar although the AN Pilots were far more flexible on work rules than the VA ones are. - Tick
• And lastly they both put out stories on why they should keep going once they lost the customers confidence. AN through the 767 Fiasco and VA through putting in the media that they need $1.4 B to survive- Tick
• Both had trigger events to complete the fall. AN had 9/11 and VA has COVID-19 - Double Tick

All in all it will be interesting to watch. The issue now is that COVID-19 is here to stay so the opening up of borders may not take 3 months which VA needs to keep going it looks more like 9 months to a year. Overall a bleak time for the world's economies. So much for retiring for most of us anytime soon.

He copy and pasted that random Michael West piece under "companies". Chance are he wrote it, yet you're presenting him as another "devestating" source.
I asked earlier on if Qantas employees or beneficiaries would declare their position in this thread about Virgin Australia, and choked on my wheeties at the suggestion they all would by a known Qantas pilot

So after seeing you conitnually sling mud at VA, I ask you Ken Borough, you wouldn't happen to have a stake in Qantas would you..?