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-   -   Pilot shortage (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/587271-pilot-shortage.html)

training wheels 21st Dec 2017 10:19

Even SQ is taking DEFO ... pilot shortage is well and truely here
Pilots

PoppaJo 21st Dec 2017 10:49

Vietnam are also feeling the pinch. J* Pacific is offering fast track upgrades for FOs in Oz should anyone be interested.

The SIA policy of not employing expats is well overdue considering a large portion of their low cost offshoot is crewed by non locals.

Rated De 21st Dec 2017 22:44


Management put out a call on Sept. 13 offering pilots more money to work extra days, with management "not quite realising how serious it was," O'Leary told Reuters.

O'Leary made it Ryanair's trademark to treat pilots more like bus drivers than what he saw as the pampered rock stars of aviation's golden age.
What do you think is discussed at IATA management conferences? This IR model is a regular discussion workshop.

Australia is no different.


There is no one in Qantas IR who was around in 2003. Not a soul. Heck, even Joyce himself wasn’t long in QF at that stage.
That may be the case, but just because your management has an appalling execution track record (indeed the region is littered with Joyce disasters) it does not mean that the strategy was not well established.

Daylight Robbery 21st Dec 2017 23:21


There is no one in Qantas IR who was around in 2003. Not a soul. Heck
The faces may have changed at QF, but heavy hitting consultants, Freehills and the like, have been used for a long time.

There has been an obsession with reducing pilot costs, which at mainline alone must be between $500 mil and a billion per year. They see it as the fat which still sits on the cost carcass. With game theory, long term planning and top law firms to implement (whom AIPA often struggles to match as they won't work for unions) they have achieved far past what they probably ever expected for IR in 2000. Only problem is, the pool of capable candidates to enter the industry dwindles year by year as the news seeps out about a modern career in aviation.

Blitzkrieger 22nd Dec 2017 01:09

In the coming weeks, a group of my aviation colleagues will be voting on their EBA. A rather bad EBA at that. Many of the ones I speak to are not even slightly convinced that the carrot they are being offered is enough any more. Go back a number of years to the last EBA and the story was very different. It is heartening that, although a small group, they have turned a corner and are prepared to ask for their fair worth.


Stand firm my friends, the shiny things are there to blind, not light the way :ok:.

gulliBell 22nd Dec 2017 11:35


Originally Posted by Blitzkrieger (Post 9997758)
...Stand firm my friends, the shiny things are there to blind, not light the way

Be heartened by the fact SYD>PER one-way economy class fare on VA earlier this week was $1,275 AUD. Ye ole kerosene canary was choc-a-block full as well. The in-flight roast chicken and potato was pretty good, but it should have been served on a gilded gold plate for that fare price instead of a cardboard box. Crikey, I could fly return to Beijing on CSN for less than $600. With that sort of seasonal revenue coming in you guys should be due your fair share, the cash in the kitty must be ample to pay for it.

CurtainTwitcher 22nd Dec 2017 23:13


China buys flight schools amid pilot shortage
Exclusive

Andrew Burrell
The Australian
December 23-24 2017, page 1

Chinese companies are swooping
on Australian flight training
schools increasingly stricken by
skyrocketing costs and crippling
red tape, amid predictions that
the nation will be forced to import
scores of commercial pilots from
Asia and Africa in coming years.

The Weekend Australian has
spoken to several of the country’s
350 aviation training businesses
that say they are unprofitable and
are considering selling to the
Chinese. Scores of local firms
have folded in recent years and
several of the larger schools are
now foreign-owned.

China will need and estimated
110,000 new pilots by 2035 but
is relying on other countries for
most of its training because of its
heavy smog, military-controlled
airspace and lack of qualified
teachers who speak English

A federal government report this
week confirmed the local industry’s
drastic decline, showing the number
of general aviation flying hours fell
by 40 per cent -- from 500,000
hours a year to 300,000 hours a
year between 2010 and 2015.

The increasing foreign ownership
in the flight training industry --
particularly the concentration of
Chinese acquisitions-- is raising
concerns among senior security
experts.

Peter Jennings, the executive
director of the Australian Strategic
Policy Institute, said the
“aggregation effect” could be
of the same concern in flight
training as it had been to Scott
Morrison in other sectors.

“It may be acceptable to own
one or two flight training schools
” Mr Jennings said, but if the
Chinese acquired flight training
schools to the point where there
was a dependence on it “the
aggregation effect of that
could be negative from a
government perspective”.
Flying training is seen as vital
to allow Australia to keep up
with the increasing demand
for pilots, with predictions of
a major shortage in coming years.

The landmark study by the
Bureau of Infrastructure,
Transport and Regional Economics
also raised industry fears about
he cost of pilot and maintenance
training, soaring airport charges
and recent regulatory changes
that were “not supported by
adequate justification.”

Aircraft Owners and Pilots
Association chief executive
Ben Morgan said he believed
more than 50 per cent of all
flight training in Australian was
now being carried out by foreign
companies and most of them
were Chinese.

He said it was “realistic” to
predict the industry could be
entirely foreign owned in
the next 10 years. “The
Chinese are cleaning up,”
he said. “Australia is selling
out its flight training industry
to foreign interest.”

Chinese airlines have been
investing heavily in Australian
flight training in recent years.
In 2015, a China Eastern
Airlines subsidiary brought a 50
per cent stake in CAE’s Melbourne
aining school. Its rival, China
Southern Airlines, owns 50 per
cent of a West Australian academy.

One of the biggest regional schools,
Australian International Aviation
College in Port Macquarie is now
owned by Hainan Airlines after
the local operator ran into financial
trouble in 2014.

The Chinese sale was facilitated
by the federal government’s
Austrade agency. The business is
now planning an $18 million training
facility at Kempsey airport to train
Chinese students.

Dick Smith, a former chairman of
the Civil Aviation Safety Authority
, blamed the destruction of the
industry on the former Howard
government’s directive to CASA to
ignore costs in relation to air safety,
which he said had led to the adoption
of the world’s most expensive regulations.

“Australian companies are going
broke because of paperwork
and red tape,” he said. “Now
we have a shortage of pilots.
Does it matter that in five
years...we will have pilots
from developing countries--
from India, Indonesia and
China flying our airlines?”

Mr Smith said he was also
concerned that Australian
flight training companies were
unable to get approval from
China to train Chinese students
in the same way Chinese-run schools
do in Australia.

Mr Morgan, of AOPA, welcomed
the appointment this week of
Barnaby Joyce as Transport
Minister and called on him to urgently
address how the local flight training
industry could deliver crews for
Australian airlines rather than
relying on Asian and African pilots.

He said CASA should allow independent
flight instructors to be used by smaller
businesses, noting that 70 per cent of
training in the US was conducted
by independent instructors.

“If you are not an organisation
with a bucket of cash, there’s
no way you can get involved in flight
training” he said.

“We used to be a leader in flight
training but we have created an
expensive and cumbersome system.”

A CASA spokesman said the
concept of independent flight
instructors was raised during
consultations but was not widely
supported at this time.

“If the aviation community
believes the concept of independent
instructors needs to be looked at
again, CASA is willing to listen to
constructive suggestions,” he said.

Industry veteran John Douglas,
the former head of the Royal
Aero Club of WA, said conditions
were the worst he had seen in 50 years.

He said the number of training
hours at the club had fallen from
36,000 hours a year to 16,000
over the past two decades.

Mr Douglas slammed new CASA
requirements for schools to
spend money to gain new
certification for training.
“The cost of compliance is killing
the industry,” he said.

Bill Whitworth, the owner of
Whitworth Aviation at Bansktown
Airport, recently agreed to sell
his troubled business to a
Chinese company. “They want
to get a foothold here at
Bankstown Airport,” he said.
“They want to bring students
down and train them, starting
with 30 students.”

Another long-term operator at
Bankstown, Aminta Hennessy,
said businesses were also being
hurt by rising airport fees and charges.

She said she had been recently
approached by foreign companies
to sell.

The chief executive of Melbourne
Flight Training, Glen Buckley,
said he had received five offers
from Chinese companies to buy up
to 20 per cent of his business,
but he had so far resisted the temptation to sell.

ADDITIONAL REPORTING: SID MAHER

The Chinese are cleaning up
(Paywalled at The Australian)

Apologies for the formatting... best I could do with limited bbcode options.

edit: Report referenced in the article: General Aviation Study

Rated De 22nd Dec 2017 23:29


Industry veteran John Douglas,
the former head of the Royal
Aero Club of WA, said conditions
were the worst he had seen in 50 years.

He said the number of training
hours at the club had fallen from
36,000 hours a year to 16,000
over the past two decades.
Like the ghost of decades gone by, despite those at the face of the shortage, the myth of Australian exceptionalism exists..

gulliBell 23rd Dec 2017 00:22

Having just come out of 3 years as a trainer in China. The training pipeline there (that is, once the cadets finish their initial training outside China they come to us for type rating training on to their allocated fleet type), the system there is getting stressed. People are working longer and longer hours to achieve the business outcomes. The bottleneck will be in China. Whilst Chinese companies might have Australian flight training schools on their acquisition radar, the limiting factor will be the pilot throughput at the Chinese end. No point buying Australian flight schools and pumping out more CPL's if there in no spare capacity in China for making them airline useful.

wheels_down 23rd Dec 2017 04:52

Cadets are not the answer to fixing the pilot shortage. Having spoken to a senior check captain recently he acknowledged the quality isn’t there compared to ex GA and his mob wouldn’t go all guns blazing with cadets because the training department couldn’t handle it.

So what’s the solution? Subsidising self funded CPL holders? My local club last year sold a 172 and made redundant an instructor to avoid the bank taking its assets.

Due to the fact that there is nobody self funding CPLs anymore would i be right in saying it’s now easier to get a job out there?

Rated De 23rd Dec 2017 05:16


So what’s the solution? Subsidising self funded CPL holders? My local club last year sold a 172 and made redundant an instructor to avoid the bank taking its assets.

Due to the fact that there is nobody self funding CPLs anymore would i be right in saying it’s now easier to get a job out there?
These are real issues.
Airlines have been consulted for a long time about the impending shortage. Unfortunately for all the paradigm of abundant supply meant any attempt to show the problem was laughed down. It was also readily evident that the apparatus set up and that included the recruiting, training, HR and IR model saw supply as a given.

Aging populations are all over the western hemisphere, the Second World War responsible for the single largest generation in history.

Just how does an airline change direction when their system cannot see the fundamental flaw in their model?

Of course there are airlines that have happy and loyal employees and readers of Pprune know that there were leaders that did things a different way. From Gordon Bethune to Herb Kelleher and closer to home Rob Fyfe airlines can control cost secure their revenue and also have happier employees. As Mr O'Leary is finding out supply is limited and money is not likely to fix their problems. Their business model needs to change, but ultimately will it? Just how an airline tackles declining supply and experience levels is going to be fascinating to watch.

For the incumbent airline CEO in Australia, as this thing bites it may well be important to remember that sincerity is very difficult to fake.


Australian airlines were smug in their own ignorance. With GA and the military, as well as the occasional shock keeping the supply of pilots nicely ahead of demand, the model they developed was designed to keep downward pressure on wages. It certainly worked.

Divisive, adversarial models may well have had their day, it will be brave CEOs that declare this and decide to unwind some of the more complex administrative empires their businesses possess.

73qanda 23rd Dec 2017 05:46


With GA and the military, as well as the occasional shock keeping the supply of pilots nicely ahead of demand, the model they developed was designed to keep downward pressure on wages. It certainly worked.
I suspect you’re correct but has anyone got any data to back it up?
Eg, what was the ratio of Australian 737 Captain salary to average national wage in
1970
1980
1990
2000
2010
2017?
If anyone has been flying jets for 45 years can you give us some figures so we can google the relevant average salary?

t_cas 23rd Dec 2017 08:06

The median price of a house circa 1978-86....?

Tankengine 23rd Dec 2017 08:19


Originally Posted by t_cas (Post 9999113)
The median price of a house circa 1978-86....?

Not sure, but certainly some Second Officers bought Hunter’s Hill waterfront properties in late 60s, early 70s!

Jeffory 23rd Dec 2017 08:55

Can anyone tell me how long MECIR and MCC been a prerequisite for airline applicants? I assume this wasn't a factor in days gone by.

For those that don't get given either of these through an employer I can see why people would be deterred. An extra $25-30k on top of the initial CPL for no real promise of a job. Offshore helicopter operators seem to be going down the same road too, except the IR is double the cost. Not worth the trouble really.

gulliBell 23rd Dec 2017 12:53


Originally Posted by wheels_down (Post 9998994)
..Cadets are not the answer to fixing the pilot shortage. Having spoken to a senior check captain recently he acknowledged the quality isn’t there compared to ex GA and his mob wouldn’t go all guns blazing with cadets because the training department couldn’t handle it...

Maybe, I don't know. But in the space I'm familiar with, cadets are the answer. Apply prudent candidate selection, then train them from zero to CPL. Once that is done put them through conversion training onto a fleet type. Then they play SO for a year or so to get into the swing of how it all works. If they're passing their sim checks and appear reasonably capable they get made FO. Only then do they first touch the flight controls with passengers on board. The quality is out there, you just need to identify it, and nurture it through the training pipeline. If the first time you see an airline FO candidate is early in a GA career, after they've paid for their own training, you don't really have a good handle on the quality and suitability of that person for the intended role. If you're hiring somebody off the street and training them from day 1 you can mold them the way you want, and cut them at any point if they're not making the grade. This is the way it works in China, it could be made to work elsewhere.

Keg 23rd Dec 2017 15:58


Originally Posted by gulliBell (Post 9999372)
This is the way it works in China, it could be made to work elsewhere.

It’s been shown to work in Australia. It worked in QF in the early 70s and they proved it again in the 90s. In the late 90s there were a host of LH F/Os in their mid to late 20s that were ex cadets.

*Lancer* 23rd Dec 2017 20:37

LHFO in your mid to late twenties? How times have changed! :hmm:

I tend to think our training systems in Australia are robust enough for competent and appropriate pilot development as cadet entrants. It’s likely that cadet programs will continue to be part of the balance, but increasingly so overseas.

Rated De 23rd Dec 2017 21:55


Maybe, I don't know. But in the space I'm familiar with, cadets are the answer. Apply prudent candidate selection, then train them from zero to CPL. Once that is done put them through conversion training onto a fleet type.
  • Not sure that airline managers accustomed to having excess supply of already qualified applicants will accept this.

  • Not sure a training system that has been pared back to absolute minimum can cope with less experience. It will require more sessions, not less and this is a problem for airline management.


In the case of a supply issue, whether for cultural or strategy issues, airlines that embrace the expense(or is it investment?) and decide that more resources, not less are needed will secure supply.


For airlines accustomed to an oversupply of qualified pilots, with ancillary systems like recruiting and HR operating on the same premise, it may be difficult to accept and ultimately change the entrenched model.

Blitzkrieger 23rd Dec 2017 23:29

If an airlines response to an undersupply of pilots to a subcontractor is to place a secret unwritten ban on employing pilots from that subcontractor to fill positions in the parent airline, they have obviously not even started to get the picture. They cant see that the reason for the under supply in the first place is their choice to screw pilots down under a contract company. It's idiotic!


The only way to combat the staunch resistance to change is to stand firm and to gain perspective on your own worth. Pilots are pure and simply a profit centre, we make for our employers many times our own salary, year in, year out. They need us as much as we need them, the only difference is they have entire departments devoted to convincing you otherwise.


Slow down, think the deal through, find the loopholes and traps, then apply your value to that deal and you'll have your answer.


Merry Christmas all, may we be having a very different discussion in a years time! :D

gulliBell 23rd Dec 2017 23:48

Our company was investing 40,000 hours per year on cadet basic flight training in Australia alone. The Chinese have a "can do" attitude, and the staff all have a loyalty to the company to the extent I haven't seen before in any other country. If they are asked to work extra hours they do it, if they have to come in on the weekend they do it, and generally the staff don't ask or expect anything in return. They are just happy to have a job.
Take a look at the South China Sea dispute between those several countries who have a claim on those shoals, reefs, islands and sea area. Every other country was "talk, talk, talk"; China went and did something about it. There is no way anybody is going to bump them off those islands now (one of our planes actually flew down there and landed as a PR promo). That's what I mean, and that same attitude applies to their pilot requirements. They throw money at the problem and take affirmative action to do what needs doing.
The HR Department for the training department I was working in has 2 people, and it's a huge operation that is putting through 1000+ pilots per year. There is also an IR Department and I never saw anyone from that section in 3 years. For them an "already qualified applicant" is anyone in their early to mid 20's, likely has completed a university degree, is medically fit, and has a desire for a career as a pilot. There are millions of people in China who meet those requirements, no shortage at all.

KRUSTY 34 24th Dec 2017 03:17

Awesome gulliBell.

Problem solved! :ok:

Power 24th Dec 2017 03:38

Sounds like we have a Chinese spy in here

Rated De 24th Dec 2017 04:24


The Chinese have a "can do" attitude, and the staff all have a loyalty to the company to the extent I haven't seen before in any other country. If they are asked to work extra hours they do it, if they have to come in on the weekend they do it, and generally the staff don't ask or expect anything in return. They are just happy to have a job.
Whilst nothing detracts from the reality that a system set up to deliver a throughput of pilots, 'can' deliver that output, entrenched attitudes, regulations and workplace regulations get in the way. Something not often observed in a one party state. The fact that most western economies, are for the most part, not centrally planned (indeed planned at all!) means western airlines are generally not an extension of the state.

Most airline executives would be very enthused to have staff who work every weekend, extra hours and not expect anything in return. Staff just happy to have a job is what Australian industry craves and the continued importation of labour under various visas appeases many industry groups! They spend their waking hours trying to 'offshore' any job or service not nailed down or fill it with temporary (cheaper) labour. Western airlines have been frustrated in their endeavours by pesky labour relations laws from developing a form of industrial servitude that resembles an environment where workers do as instructed with a 'joy' that the most ardent central planner would applaud.


Take a look at the South China Sea dispute between those several countries who have a claim on those shoals, reefs, islands and sea area. Every other country was "talk, talk, talk"; China went and did something about it.
I am not sure airline training budgets extend to heavy machinery engineering nor armed flotillas. Nor am I sure that their knowledge of the law extends to sovereign territorial limits, freedom of navigation and nor would an airline executive contemplate establishing a 'base' were such efforts necessary.


Whilst it is admirable that some countries with a cohesive policy for aviation have demonstrated there are was to 'get things done' the separation of state and airline is such that a privatised airline in a western economy generally serves different masters than those from a centrally planned and governed one party state.

gulliBell 24th Dec 2017 05:50


Originally Posted by KRUSTY 34 (Post 9999946)
..Problem solved!

In some countries, yes; here, no. The problem isn't solved because there is no aviation CEO who can decree such a course of action, with appropriate budget, and make it happen. And the national culture to facilitate it doesn't exist anywhere near the same extent as elsewhere where cadet pilot programs do work. The easier solution was to leverage the political option and open the place up by way of a skilled migrant visa program. The downside is this will certainly restrict opportunities for those here trying to get their foot through the airline cockpit door after investing heavily in their own training.

KRUSTY 34 24th Dec 2017 07:59

Sorry gulliBell, was my sarcasm a little too subtle for you? :)

gulliBell 24th Dec 2017 08:53


Originally Posted by KRUSTY 34 (Post 10000071)
Sorry gulliBell, was my sarcasm a little too subtle for you? :)

Nah, easy to pick...

cessnapete 24th Dec 2017 09:36

Cadet programmes been used very successfully in UK for many years. Required as no large experienced GA or Military source available to the airlines.
Needs high quality selection and Flight Schools.

Following rigid selection criteria, 200+ hrs at flying training school, with CPL/IR and multi rating at end. ( ATPL exams passed and issue when hours acquired later)
In my UK airline cadets then went straight into RHS B737/A320/B757 after normal TR course.
RHS Base Training as required, followed by at least 50 route sectors with Training Capt. When released to normal 2 crew Line flying, rostered with Capts of at least a year experience for the first six months, on multi sector European routes.

Very successful and no flight safety issues. Many of the early cadets now retired or Capts on A380 and all wide body types.

plasticmerc 24th Dec 2017 09:37

What gullibell is saying is more or less correct and in it's own weird and wonderful way the right way at the moment.

Throwing money at the problem!

- I don't see too many other countries setting up training schools in other countries to develop there up and comers,
- Pay expats such high rates to a/ fill in the numbers
b/ train and mentor their guys and girls.

Have you noticed how many new aircraft are on order around the world?

Has any one noticed airlines who normally don't have recruitment issues crying out for staff?

Things are changing and very quickly in terms of aviation.

in 5-10 years time it wont matter how many shiney new jets you have in your fleet or on order people will be saying how many are parked up.

I see airlines with hundreds of aircraft on order and I just sit and think yeah right-o-mate good luck with that.


Just my 2 cents worth.

Rated De 24th Dec 2017 10:44


in 5-10 years time it wont matter how many shiney new jets you have in your fleet or on order people will be saying how many are parked up.
As I repeatedly state, this is a structural shortage.
The airlines that fail to unwind their adversarial models will lose out.
Australian airlines have enjoyed unparalleled access to pilots who;

  1. Had sufficient hours be they GA or military
  2. Had the requisite ATPL
  3. Had multi engine experience
  4. Had Paid for it themselves (or the taxpayer did)
The last funded cadet program for Qantas was on the eve of privatisation.



How Qantas unwinds their adversarial employee interaction model is anyone's guess. Given the protagonists (IR/HR) have had the run of the place for decades it is unlikely to change anytime soon.


Chinese carriers, funded by their government are simply extending the one belt one road model into aviation.


What will be really amusing to watch is the way the shortage plays out through the subsidiary airlines. Clamping down on pilots leaving Qlink for Qantas may further accelerate localised shortage.
Actually 'investing' in providing pilots with training and a career path will cost airlines. This cost will be borne as the structures in place are unwound. Replaced with a tangible investment in pilot supply is smart business: Pilots are strategic assets (Apologies to Mr O'Leary, Clifford, Rupert et al) Get pilots to pay for parking, uniforms and even their own interviews is something Mr O'Leary loved and has been embraced by other carriers too. Unwinding it will only begin in earnest when revenues are suffering due lack of supply...

When HR is a hammer, then any staff problem is a nail!

pilotchute 24th Dec 2017 22:06

Cessnapete,

The difference with cadet programmes in Europe is that they have experience doing it and the airlines provide the necessary resources for it. Apart from Jetstar nobody in Australia has a 0 to jet ab initio programme. They had awful problems with it at the start.

Australian operators just don't want to spend any money on training. Qlink went to the USA to try and get dash drivers because they thought they could get out of having to type rate people. They would also have instant command qualified FO's.

I laugh when the likes of Skippers and Corporate Air advertise for type rated pilots. How many out of work metro and dash drivers do they think are out there? Again just not wanting to invest in any training.

wheels_down 25th Dec 2017 02:41

How many Jetstar cadets have since left? I know some who are now at Emirates. Usually these programs are meant to give the carrier some medium term job security.

Popgun 25th Dec 2017 04:56


Originally Posted by wheels_down (Post 10000916)
How many Jetstar cadets have since left? I know some who are now at Emirates. Usually these programs are meant to give the carrier some medium term job security.

A lot have left. (But there are many more where they came from!)

Once they have a bit of experience they are no different to any other pilot when it comes to being attracted to a job with better remuneration and/or conditions. They are almost always very young, with time on their side, to enable a move to a better position even if progression at the new carrier is slow.

Lots of ex-JQ cadets at many carriers including EK, QF and NZ. If Jetstar really wants to keep them for the long term then the conditions will need to improve (unlikely with inadequate pilot industrial cohesion) or they'll need to contract them in for a longer period.

PG

CurtainTwitcher 25th Dec 2017 06:07


If Jetstar really wants to keep them for the long term then the conditions will need to improve (unlikely with inadequate pilot industrial cohesion) or they'll need to contract them in for a longer period.
What would be the mechanism to bind a cadet to any operator? The Jetstar Cadet Booklet (V4) is very clear on the funding, it is up to the cadet to self-fund along with the Federal governments FEE-HELP program. Jetstar doesn't appear to put anything at stake - it has no skin in the game.

Traditionally, the binding mechanisms have been bonding for type course along with the more subtle denial of ICUS time, therefore preventing ATPL qualification. Close to command upgrade time, ICUS is then allowed to be logged, thus allowing the necessary ATPL.

Without the operator actually signing a contract to fund part or all cadet training, the self-funded cadet is a free agent.

Log book time is solely & irrevocable the property of the pilot, independent of the operator. I believe this was a the logic behind the now defunct MPL licensing system, where logged time only had value within an MPL operator's check & training system as I understand it (corrections please), and was not readily transferable to another operator.

As to increasing T&C, with or without industrial cohesion, Ryanair have demonstrated that improvements will occur when there are significant flight cancellations. As they say in commodities, the solution to low prices is low prices! The market ultimately will adjust, although the price discovery efficiency of the pilot market is low as the market power has largely been with a small number of operators, compared to the large number of individual pilots.

I would expect, just like Ryanair that there will be a discontinuity, ie no change, then a sudden significant change in pay in a single move. Something along the lines of a loyalty or incentive bonus, conditional on an extended period of service. The underlying contract may not alter much as operators do not want to lock in large contract increase future liabilities.

ElZilcho 25th Dec 2017 06:10


Originally Posted by Popgun (Post 10000943)
They are almost always very young, with time on their side, to enable a move to a better position even if progression at the new carrier is slow.

And there's the rub. I've bumped into a couple of ex J* Cadets in recent years. They're 10 years my junior, similar Jet experience (if not more) and in vastly better financial shape than I was at that age. Sure, they're missing a few thousand hours of GA and Turbo-Prop time, but at this level, no one gives 2 ****s about it. They have the freedom to go virtually anywhere in the world for another 5-10 years and still return home in their mid to early 30's. Why would they stay at J*?

Hate to admit it, but it does make me question my career to this point. Lots of great memories sure, but the future would be very different if I were 10 years younger with the same seniority number.

CurtainTwitcher 25th Dec 2017 07:04

FWA Press Release: Jetstar fined over breaches of workplace laws


Jetstar fined over breaches of workplace laws
6 February 2014

Two Jetstar companies have today been fined a total of $90,000 for unlawfully making six cadet pilots responsible for training costs and making deductions from their wages, despite receiving advice the deductions contravened workplace laws.

Jetstar Group Pty Ltd and Jetstar Airways Pty Ltd have each been fined $45,000 in the Federal Court in Sydney after admitting they breached the Fair Work Act.

The penalties are the result of legal action by the Fair Work Ombudsman.

The six pilots were recruited between October, 2010 and January, 2011 and were employed on New Zealand individual contracts through a New Zealand-based Jetstar subsidiary while they underwent six months of training.

At the conclusion of the training, the cadet pilots’ employment was transferred to Australian entity Jetstar Group.

Justice Robert Buchanan found that Jetstar continued to pursue plans to recover training costs from the cadet pilots despite advice that this was unlawful under Australia’s Air Pilots Award 2010.

Jetstar deducted a total of $17,500 from the cadet pilots’ wages between June and September 2011 before the practice was ceased and the money was returned to them in November 2011, following a legal challenge by the Australian Federation of Air Pilots (AFAP).

Deductions were made from all six pilots’ wages, including one pilot who had refused to agree to the deductions.

Justice Buchanan said that there was a lack of evidence of contrition or remorse from Jetstar.

"The respondents used their vastly superior bargaining power to effectively brush aside any personal resistance by cadet pilots, not desisting until the AFAP stepped in," Justice Buchanan said.

"The conduct of Jetstar Group and Jetstar Airways was calculated solely by reference to their assessment of their own commercial interests and their determination that the cadet pilots should be ultimately responsible for the cost of their training.

Justice Buchanan said the companies "undertook their contravening conduct notwithstanding advice (the substance of which is now accepted) that what they were proposing to do, and did do, was contrary to the Award and the Fair Work Act."

Imposing penalties at 68 per cent of the available maximum, Justice Buchanan said, "I think it is appropriate to mark the Court’s disapproval of what was done".

"A penalty should be fixed, if possible, with a view to ensuring that the risk of punishment is not seen as an acceptable cost of doing business."

The Fair Work Ombudsman's separate legal proceedings against Jetstar Airways Pty Ltd, as well as Singapore company Valuair Limited and Thai company Tour East (T.E.T.) Limited are ongoing.

In these proceedings the Fair Work Ombudsman alleges that cabin crew employed by Valuair and Tour East (T.E.T.) to work on domestic flights for Jetstar were subject to Australian workplace laws.

These allegations are being contested by Valuair, Tour East (T.E.T.) and Jetstar Airways. A hearing is scheduled for April 7 in the Federal Court in Sydney.

Employers and employees seeking assistance should visit www.fairwork.gov.au or contact the Fair Work Infoline on 13 13 94. A free interpreter service is available by calling 13 14 50.

The Fair Work Ombudsman's website contains a range of tools and resources, including PayCheck Plus and an Award Finder, to assist employers calculate the correct wages and entitlements for employees.

Other website resources include fact sheets, templates for time-and-wages sheets and a range of Best Practice Guides.

An "Industries" section on the website provides extra, specialised information for employers and employees in a range of industries, including retail, horticulture, road transport, accommodation and hospitality, cleaning, clerical, vehicle, electrical, fast food, building and construction, hair and beauty, joinery, metal manufacturing, social and community services, plumbing and security.


Original judgment: Fair Work Ombudsman v Jetstar Airways Ltd [2014] FCA 33

Rated De 25th Dec 2017 07:54


"The conduct of Jetstar Group and Jetstar Airways was calculated solely by reference to their assessment of their own commercial interests and their determination that the cadet pilots should be ultimately responsible for the cost of their training.
It is the subjective determination of an airline that has to be shifted. The airline determines that the cadet pay, end of discussion.
As they say, everything is alright until it isn't. The practitioners have not yet accepted the shift in supply. Change will be forced when unable to attract suitable applicants over the business cycle (both up and down) In the interim denial and a continuance of current HR/IR practice is the order of the day.

Mr O'Leary gives ground only when necessary to address a specific concern, expect no less in Australia

gulliBell 25th Dec 2017 09:16

If the Executives of the company are knowingly breaking the law in this regard they are not fit and proper persons for holding these positions and thus their employment should be terminated "for cause" by their Company Board. Change must come from the top. A $45,000 fine isn't even a tank of gas for one of their planes. Good on the AFAP for rolling them on this one.

KRUSTY 34 25th Dec 2017 11:19

Well said gulliBell.

CurtainTwitcher 27th Dec 2017 00:23


It's getting a lot more lucrative to become a pilot

By Marielle Segarra
December 26, 2017 | 9:30 AM

Zack Tusing is training to be a pilot. One of his favorite places to fly is a spot along the Hudson River, overlooking New York City. Sure, he says, it’s a little scary hovering next to skyscrapers and being suspended over water in a one engine Cessna.

"Other than that, it’s really cool," Tusing said. "Central Park is cool to see. Being right at the top of One World Trade Center is cool. You can see Yankee Stadium."

Tusing is 19, and he has been training to be a pilot since he was a toddler.

"When I was three or four, my dad would hook up, I think it was a Microsoft Flight Simulator 1995, on the computer, and I would just try to get the plane on the ground somewhere without crashing," he said.

When he took his first actual flying lesson at 13, the outlook for pilots wasn’t great. It was 2011, and there had been a decade of turmoil in the airline industry — with downturns after 9/11 and during the recession. About 10,000 pilots were furloughed.

Entry-level pilot salaries were about $22,000 a year on average, according to the aviation advisory firm FAPA. Meanwhile, training could cost five times that, says Wendy Beckman, who runs the aerospace department at Middle Tennessee State University.

"You heard stories of people on food stamps and living at home and sleeping in crew lounges," Beckman said.

Infinity Flight Group, a flight training school, opened a few years ago with a three-plane fleet. Now it has 25 planes and it's having trouble keeping up with demand.

Tusing didn’t want to give up his dream. In fall 2016, he enrolled in Penn State Abington’s business program, with plans to get his pilot’s license after graduation.

But there was a shift happening in the airline industry.

There’s a mandatory retirement age for pilots: 65. That time has come for a lot of them, says Gregory John, who runs Infinity Flight Group, the pilot training school Tusing attends.

"It's estimated [that in] the next 10 years, half of all pilots will be retiring from major airlines," John said.

The big airlines, like American and United, have hired more than 4,000 pilots this year — an eightfold increase from just five years ago, according to FAPA.


A lot of those pilots come from the regional airlines. That’s left the regionals with a pilot shortage. Last year, 35 percent of available pilot jobs at those airlines went unfilled, according to the Regional Airline Association. The regional airlines have had to up their game. They've more than doubled pilot starting pay, to almost $50,000 a year on average, according to FAPA. Regional airlines are also offering signing bonuses of up to $31,000, and they're helping to pay for flight training.

"They'll help pay for some of your flight training," John said. "They'll guarantee you a job."

Some are also relaxing their preference for a college degree. So in January, Zack Tusing dropped out of college to train as a pilot full time. Tusing has flown about 200 hours so far; he needs 1,500 to get hired at a commercial airline. He says it’ll probably cost him $80,000 all told. But he sees a real future as a pilot.

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It's getting a lot more lucrative to become a pilot





Desperately need pilots? Try paying them more

By Gigi Douban
September 16, 2016 | 7:15 AM

Two American Airlines subsidiaries announced plans to boost the starting pay for regional pilots, in some cases increasing pay by 56 percent. On top of that, the regional carriers, PSA Airlines and Envoy Air, will offer bigger sign-on and retention bonuses, all in the hopes the move will ease a pilot shortage.

Why the shortage? It’s way harder than it used to be to become a regional pilot. And the pay is terrible.

"There are plenty of new-hire pilots at regional airlines who are eligible for public assistance, for food stamps for example," said Gregg Overman, communications director for the Allied Pilots Association. Some regional pilots, he said, get paid less than $18,000 a year. Hence, the shortage.

"All airlines are just having a hard time right now finding enough pilots to fly the smaller planes at the pay rates that they’ve been paying," Seth Kaplan, editor at Airline Weekly, said.

New pilots for Envoy and PSA can make $58,000 a year. Kaplan said the airlines had to pay more or cut regional flights — the flights that help fill the seats on big planes.

"You need to be able to get people from Omaha to Chicago, to fill that flight from Chicago to Tokyo," he said.


Desperately need pilots? Try paying them more


Pilot shortage grows
But while Hawaii service flourishes, less glamorous regional airline markets throughout the U.S. are likely to continue suffering in 2018 as a nationwide pilot shortage gets worse.

The shortage has been a key factor in 20 U.S. airports losing commercial air service since 2013. Another 26 airports have lost at least 75% of departures, according to the Regional Airlines Association.

The shortage, which transportation economist Dan Akins said numbered 500 pilots in 2017, has also led to closures, bankruptcies and operational problems for regional airlines. In the most recent prominent example, Alaska Airlines’ regional subsidiary, Horizon, was forced to reduce its flight schedule from September through at least January. In September, Horizon canceled a whopping 6.5% of its flights.

With retirements at major U.S. airlines ramping up, Akins projects that the U.S. commercial airline industry will require 2,000 more pilots than will be available in 2018.

“Ramifications will be further reduction of regional operations, reduction or elimination in service to an increasing number of smaller communities, more carrier failures/bankruptcies, pressure on military to retain existing pilots for national defense and perhaps the start of airline funding of pilot training,” Akins said.

The shortage has led to various proposals in recent months to increase the legal avenues for aspiring pilots to obtain a commercial license with less than the required 1,500 hours of flight time.

Akins said that even if such changes are made, the shortage is sure to persist. “The lag time to train pilots is years,” he said.
Airlines: What the year ahead holds for the industry


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