Morno,

Sorry bud. You made the decision to increase your bank balance and satisfy your SJS.

The rest of us that stayed home worked out that flying pays for our lifestyle outside of work. Camping, fishing, boating, etc etc.

Whilst doing shark patrol to cooly ain’t exactly what many had in mind when they started this career, that’s exactly what commercial flying is. A - B x 1000 safely.

There will always be a 146 or a Fokker waiting for you with a quick left seat when you get back.

If you ever think it’s unfair, perhaps you shouldn’t have left? Also what relevance does long haul ops on a bigbird to foreign regions have compared with short hops up and down the coast with quick turns and a domestic career?

Seniority is fine until you are in your 50’s & your airline collapses. Then it sucks. Particularly as you watch the remaining carrier take up the extra flying & those fortunate enough to be in that airline move ahead at your expense. Very hard to go back to the right seat or back seat from a financial perspective when you are that age.

Oakape, that's similar to a Hong Kong operator that is putting pressure on some of the seniors.


Not very many sideways steps, but that downward one is a dooozy!

My reference to interested pilot's returning to Australia wasn't to QF -or VA mainline- If they have enough upgradeable candidates then of course they should be offered an opportunity to upgrade before DEC. Given such small fleets and glacial growth/attrition that is the only way to do it.
What I was referring to when mentioning pay was Regional Operations in the LHS rather than the RHS. For an experienced expat it 'may' be an acceptable pay cut to the LHS but definitely not the RHS. I stand by my assertion that Seniority can be a double edged sword but generally favours the employer.

A little left field, but current Qantas pilots on furlough working abroad will be progressively returning to Qantas and Australia. As part of their career progress, they have achieved promotion to the LHS and gained invaluable experience. Qantas will benefit from their experience, so the demarcation of inside or outside of Australia are blurred in reality. There likely won't be any demand for DEC because Qantas already has very experienced crews.

Once an expat, always an expat, unless you are young and find that being in your early 20s with jet time gives you a leg up in the selection process if you want to come home after a couple of years overseas.

Get used to the expat package, stick around for the upgrade and the years have rolled by. When the next wave of recruitment starts you may be on your 30s, and suddenly 15 years in the right seat doesn't seem so appealing, with a pay cut and very possibly a family to support.

Towards the end of your career, if you are sick of long haul and living in Asia or the Middle East, are financially secure and just want to get home then DEC may be possible with a smaller operator who would welcome your experience and know that you would stick around instead of leaving as soon as the big boys open the doors. Mine transfers or night freight in older jets could be fun with a Queensland base and the children having left home.

That sounds miserable.

Aviation really is a rubbish career

It didn't use to be, but it is now.

The smartest guys joined QF/JQ group and went on LWOP. I know a guy that did this soon after joining, he went and lived the ‘big jet LHS’ dream all over the world. He’s now paid a squillion as a wide body skipper and lives in Aus and is mid 30s. When his east coast command comes up he will do that and go part time. Some played a really smart game some didn’t. I’m envious of how well he did. Good on him though.

LWOP facility and likelihood wasn’t in my thinking when choosing my employer, it should have been. At least I didn’t join CX or EK. Now that’s a **** sandwich that just keeps on giving!

It’s interesting how the QF group have managed the LWOP scenario. Nearly like a ready reserve. A lot of guys I know have left employers over the years as they’ve wanted to chase the overseas stuff but wouldn’t have quit if they could have done a LWOP scenario. Most of them would come back but can’t as they’ve lost their spot.

Every Pilot in AUS/NZ knows how seniority driven the Airlines here are. Especially the Legacy Carriers.

Some chose to chase the money and progression abroad, some slogged it out in GA/Regional's waiting to get on the Seniority list ASAP. Others (like myself), took a halfway approach and kept a current C.V. in back home and raced back the moment a job was offered, turning down a Command in the process.

We've each made our beds in Aviation, and we need to accept that.

In all reality, DEC's likely will get offered in AUS at some point in time, they just wont be at QF.

Talking to those who have (or are currently) doing the Expat gig, there's really 2 "Windows" to come back home to a Legacy Carrier. When you're young enough (Early 30's) to still have a decent Career back home, or when you're old enough (50+) that you've gotten the LHS out of your system, the Mortgage paid off and the Kids moved out. I've met a few late in life S/O's who really don't care what they earn now, it's all about the Lifestyle.

Unfortunately, a lot of guys try to move home in their mid 40's because the Wife/Kids are sick of China or the Desert, but that's about the worst time to move.

Heard on the grapevine the Cobham EBA vote got an overwhealming NO vote.... there seems to be another disturbance in the force for the divide and conquer method of employing pilots. Interesting times

And that’s the rub. The numbers do eb and flow a bit, but over the last 2 decades or more the participation rate in the profession has decreased by a factor of 10!

Not necessarily a single reason for it, but in a world where air travel is now common place for the average punter, it simply doesn’t hold the “magic” for the same number of young people. Add to this the consistent downward pressure on T&C’s, it really has been the ultimate own goal by the shortsighted Numptys running airline HR/IR departments. :ok:

Yes, there is a shortage of cheap pilots to fly expensive airplanes!

With Network expanding in WA with larger aircraft, is there any chance this will affect QF group allocation of 737s and pilots in the west?

The days of joining QF into the RHS of a 737 in Perth might be numbered.

Supposedly not Dale.
The loss of the mining work is apparently being offset by an increase in East-west 737 services and additional international flying out of Perth.

Whether that ends up being the case is anyone’s guess.

And because those A320's will be used mostly as replacements for the F100's, a lot of which are rapidly approaching the end of their useful lives.

And what a debacle it appears to have been too. A rather emphatic NO despite there being an overwhelming feeling amongst some that this was a good deal that would be endorsed by the pilots without much resistance.


How on earth could there have been such a huge disconnect between what was agreed in principle and what the pilots were prepared to accept? Where there is smoke there is fire I would suggest :=.


The independents are going to get rather busy in the coming weeks me thinks.

You sound as though you are suffering depression?

I'm unsure of metroman's lot, but the only rubbish consistent is pilots. You work hard and make it somewhere and there is tragic ease of which people will do your job for less and without thought.

When at AN, desperados came home and were VB training captains for less than what we were paid as F/O's at AN. Now I imagine VB training capts are still paid significantly less than QF training captains? So while these clowns paid for their ratings and bellowed the unsustainability of domestic wages, this must be egg of the face now considering the long careers of QF pilots.

And now, Aussie pilots flock to Asia for the big money jobs and get paid a whopping 10k AUD less a month than my current contract. Then after a short time, they realise they don't have the lifestyle you do, and they run home and live in Sunbury or Mascot claiming the Aussie lifestyle.

In my observation, the only consistent solution to all this is rigid standards. If you can be replaced by a dodo with ease, you will be. Nothing else seems to work. The dumbing down of standards slews the supply and demand back toward the employer who universally, seem to have an obliging regulator.

Absolutely correct. At that stage you are unlikely to be financially secure, and still have high outgoings. The choice is often between a substantial pay increase as you upgrade to wide body Captain in your present job, or a substantial pay cut as you downgrade to narrow body first officer if you return. Add in moving and set up costs, together with possibly having to purchase property and the picture is quite bleak.

For mid to late 50s thing look much better. Someone of that age today, likely enjoyed the golden era of pay and conditions and spent enough time abroad to have accumulated substantial wealth. Children have probably left home and parents health issues are a draw factor. Driving down from the coast, doing a quick mine transfer or freight run and being home that night would appeal to many instead of ultra long haul, multiple time zone/minimum rest torture. As long as you’re not paying alimony to a first wife and trying to support a new family, the pay cut is quite manageable considering the lifestyle trade off.

Opportunities to do this occur when the top airlines recruit and suddenly operators such as Allance and Cobham find themselves short of Captains and senior F/Os.

Personally, I’ll retire in a low cost location such as Malaysia, Thailand or the Philippines for about 10 years and come back when I’m about 75.

Australian exceptionalism aside, airline IR refreshed from a few week's rest will be flat out on the next installment of their FEAR, UNCERTAINTY and DOUBT campaign.

Odds on it takes the form (in no particular order of preference);

• Automated aircraft by 2025?
• Subsidiary to get jets?
• New visas for pilots?
• A grounding and lockout?

Quietly despairing as the surround the water cooler and discuss the next potion to defer the inevitable paradigm shift coming to an airline new you: Terms and conditions and indeed their whole model of 'employee relations' is on the chopping block.

I have recently heard murmurings to this effect coming from people connected to JQ negotiating committees. It is all such a predictable and boring adversarial playbook.

Rumours that the unborn FRMS to be dumped and CAO 48 exemption to be continued indefinitely. Further rostering 'efficiencies' are planned as well apparently so this pilot group can remain 'competitive' and confidently 'secure' their futures.

It will be interesting to see how resolved and united this pilot group will be during the negotiations for their next EBA which expires in a little over 12 months. Cohesion will always be difficult when the membership is split across 3 unions in addition to there being significant non-union numbers.

Fear, uncertainty and doubt. Coming to a management propaganda campaign near you!

:ugh:

PG

Personally, I’ll retire in a low cost location such as Malaysia, Thailand or the Philippines for about 10 years and come back when I’m about 75.[/QUOTE]

It works for me!

All those threats are being floated about as we speak. We are as stupid as the IR experts think if we fall for it now though.

This is to my knowledge, the only profession that is not recognized as a true profession, where you hold the lives of hundreds of people on your hands yet garner no actual authority over an MBA, where a businessman can BS to a minister thus having the entire IR world chandged to suit a financial outcome.

Grow a fvcking backbone guys and girls. You will not be sacked for simply asking for a fair market rate for your services.

Lobby the hell out of your union, and don’t burst into tears whenever your HR people hint at your demise. Plenty of us stand our ground and are still here.

To be a door mat it is first necessary to lay down :E


Completely agree, but unions and management are two sides of the same coin. Sadly it has been the case in Australia since that year that pilots lay down.
I have seen tough talk my whole career, but those talking the loudest, fold first. Ask the Cathay guys.

Pilots negotiating for pilots is a big error that one union in particular is fond of repeating. Ever wonder why the other side always win?

I remember being asked by a pilot union representative what I would give up to secure an improvement? I thought I could convince him that maybe there is no need to give up anything. I argued enterprise 'bargaining' had been one way for a generation and perhaps that he was too old to see what had changed.

I suspect that the next round of enterprise 'bargains' will be led by pilot representatives turning up with their customary knife to a gun fight....again!

That’s my favourite prune sentence of 2018.

Duplicity, delinquency and unbelievably, pilot apathy.

It got so slewed in HKG, that in recent negotiations it was mentioned that the union was a solid path to training and management for pilots. Disgraceful that it is so accepted and not called for what it is. I've seen guys scorned by managers, never to be trainers, all of a sudden after being in executive union positions, end up fast tracked through the system.

The most unlikely of candidates and it's fine by me, as long as it is called so by their peers.

More to the point I think he is making is that the company will have professional and experienced HR IR people. Sending pilots to negotiate with them is foolish. We need the same expertise on our side that they use.

I worked in road transport for a while and I can tell you when things are up for negotiations the union doesnt send in truck drivers!

As a previous poster said if your serious you send in IR negotiating professionals. Anything less is foolish.

I don't fly in oz anymore but damn right it is a rubbish industry now. It doesn't matter where you go or what you fly, it all sucks.

The smart ones won't bother trying to make a career out of it anymore, quickly get themselves into a position that allows them to do something they really enjoy.

There will be plenty of job opportunities coming up at the ATSB, they’ll be getting plenty of work in the near future I reckon. This place is toxic and unsafe.

I know exactly what he means. I was just illuminating a dark shade in pilot unionism that is so difficult for many to accept they bury their heads in the sand.

You don't just swap hats going from pilot union negotiator to management pilot.

The company loves it because the pilot reps fly a full roster and spend their spare time doing union rep work. One such company even has the unions convinced that there is a requirement to have pilot reps doing the negotiating. It is little wonder then that bad outcomes occur.

The only way to fix a pilot shortage is with taller pilots.

Now we’re just getting personal! :\ :ok: :}

Added advantage is no reading glasses for a year or two longer. :)
(Arms are longer. ;) )

As Gordon Gekko said,' if you ain't inside, you are outside'

Yanis Varoufakis provided the clarity not afforded by Gekko when he stated, and I paraphrase:

'When invited in, you leave your coat and values at the door. Insiders never tell tales and they don't speak to outsiders'

I agree Gnadenberg,

The same darkness was what I was alluding to

Yea nah
 

If 457 visas are being used to patch the hole temporarily for a pilot shortage then when is anyone (I.e government and private companies) going to do something about the shortage? Or are we forever going to see a highly globalised competition within Aus forever seeing as no one will take initiative for solving this.

Also I'm not sure if you guys have heard of "Australian wings academy" but they allow a HECs VET fee debt scheme to pay for your training for all licences required and you pay it back when you have a job above a certain salary per year. They also offer accommodation for interstate students. I guess similar to Rex cadet scheme however you aren't binded within their bs T and C's.

It's in gold coast where I'm located so I will be doing it after completion of my electronic engineering degree. Reason I'm doing this is due to the state of GA in Aus, I need a back plan just incase. Hopefully I'm on the right track :* idk I'm just a newbie

As much as most on here (including me) advocate that GA experience after finishing your license is great experience, I would surmise that those Rex or jetstar cadets have moved on to much higher paying jobs a lot sooner than slogging it out in GA (rightly or wrongly).

Unless of of course you’re just indirectly advertising for said school you mentioned.

Ah I see, and I'm definitely not advertising lmao, just letting you guys know. Anyway I hears Rex offers alot of cadetship spots and normal jobs to low hour pilots, that being said I'd most rather do a cadetship but is a general aviation job worth it with Rex since I've heard finding that first job is very difficult? Also I'm new so if this is going too off topic I'll stop.

You will find numerous Universities also have a similar diploma degree in aviation. Some of these have direct relationship with qantas link for grads. Plenty of info on this in this forum..

Note: If your using fee help to do your Electronics degree, you may exceed the fee help cap for the Aviation degree as this only so much the Govt. (aka taxpayers) will assist you with