Unfortunately T&C’s in Australia have gone nowhere. The reasons why have been discussed elsewhere (lack of a strong over-arching union, small industry & therefore lack of options etc … ).
But for a simple comparison, as a 2nd year narrowbody FO here I’ll earn over 300K AUD + 17% direct retirement contribution. Not including per diems of course 😄. |
I would suggest it is a fallacy to directly compare AUD vs USD salaries outright. They are two separate job markets (though somewhat linked via the E-3). Not at all suggesting things in Aus can't and shouldn't be improved, but salaries in the US are markedly higher in a lot of fields outside aviation, such as finance and tech. I wouldn't expect Australia to be able to match these dollar for dollar in the near future
To answer the above question, I'm a current E-3 pilot I would pick Qantas over any of the current E-3 carriers. Would I take Qantas over a US legacy? Gonna be a tough choice I also personally strongly prefer living Australia over the US, if this is not the case for you then your answer will probably be different |
Originally Posted by Verbal Kint
(Post 11486535)
Unfortunately T&C’s in Australia have gone nowhere. The reasons why have been discussed elsewhere (lack of a strong over-arching union, small industry & therefore lack of options etc … ).
But for a simple comparison, as a 2nd year narrowbody FO here I’ll earn over 300K AUD + 17% direct retirement contribution. Not including per diems of course 😄. |
15 years at another foreign major in between.
|
Originally Posted by VH-RME
(Post 11486552)
I would suggest it is a fallacy to directly compare AUD vs USD salaries outright. They are two separate job markets (though somewhat linked via the E-3). Not at all suggesting things in Aus can't and shouldn't be improved, but salaries in the US are markedly higher in a lot of fields outside aviation, such as finance and tech. I wouldn't expect Australia to be able to match these dollar for dollar in the near future
To answer the above question, I'm a current E-3 pilot I would pick Qantas over any of the current E-3 carriers. Would I take Qantas over a US legacy? Gonna be a tough choice I also personally strongly prefer living Australia over the US, if this is not the case for you then your answer will probably be different |
Originally Posted by VH-RME
(Post 11486552)
I would suggest it is a fallacy to directly compare AUD vs USD salaries outright. They are two separate job markets (though somewhat linked via the E-3). Not at all suggesting things in Aus can't and shouldn't be improved, but salaries in the US are markedly higher in a lot of fields outside aviation, such as finance and tech. I wouldn't expect Australia to be able to match these dollar for dollar in the near future
To answer the above question, I'm a current E-3 pilot I would pick Qantas over any of the current E-3 carriers. Would I take Qantas over a US legacy? Gonna be a tough choice I also personally strongly prefer living Australia over the US, if this is not the case for you then your answer will probably be different |
Originally Posted by VH-RME
(Post 11486552)
I would suggest it is a fallacy to directly compare AUD vs USD salaries outright. They are two separate job markets (though somewhat linked via the E-3). Not at all suggesting things in Aus can't and shouldn't be improved, but salaries in the US are markedly higher in a lot of fields outside aviation, such as finance and tech. I wouldn't expect Australia to be able to match these dollar for dollar in the near future
To answer the above question, I'm a current E-3 pilot I would pick Qantas over any of the current E-3 carriers. Would I take Qantas over a US legacy? Gonna be a tough choice I also personally strongly prefer living Australia over the US, if this is not the case for you then your answer will probably be different The disparity between top US & Australian airlines has little to do with affordability - look at what Alan Joyce earns compared to his equivalents at overseas airlines many times the size of Qantas! Does QF actually fly anywhere these days? It’s disappointing to watch Australian pilots undercut each other to secure future flying. The lack of scope protection is the primary reason airline salaries in Australia are what they are. Airline management will continue to play pilot groups off against each other to maintain downwards pressure on conditions. James Strong started it, Dixon perfected it, Joyce capitalized on it. Look at the B (or is it C?) scale for 787 S/O’s, and soon 350 S/O’s. No doubt pending A220 deliveries to subsidiaries will be used by management to whipsaw the upcoming SH EBA talks. I left as Jetstar Intl. was starting up, and it became pretty damn clear how future flying would be allocated. I recall AIPA urging Longhaul pilots to vote in EBA 3 (?) to “get a seat at the Jetstar International table”. By then, we’d already lost most of our 767 Tasman flying to Jetconnect. Having direct experience of both mainline Qantas and US Majors, there is no contest. Obviously you have to be a US Permanent Resident to play. However, plenty of E3 folk have attained green cards and found forever homes here at the majors. |
These "Stories" are always the same
Guys crowing how they played the game & won Each to their own & free to work/ live wherever wish But I would have thought VKs career plan would have been an example of an absolute disaster - couldn't have timed it any worse Back in 2006 QF ML were on top of the world , no competition in Aussie - can't call Virgin Low cost competition Short time SO, era & the reason for leaving , JQ going international ?? Very curious , think they got maybe one A330 in that year , maybe 5/6 (at most) by 2008 & that's why someone would leave QF mainline ? Well its a free country - but its interesting logic & also flawed logic as what you anticipated simply did not occur , JQ 12 WBs versus QF 50 If you were a 76 FO at that time , likely circa 2000 joiner (+/-) , say joined at 30ish (+/-) So now in 50s as a NB FO in USA Consider if you had stayed at QF , you could have (if you wanted easy life) transferred to A380 SO , nudging $300K writing you own rosters Or gone on 747/330 FO (seniority dependant obviously) , or 73 FO or 73 LHS (Perth) If you had waited until 2010 + taken LWOP & gone on to ME3 etc etc , perhaps even DEC or accelerated to LHS . Emirates had formal program with QF back then for a number of years . & if the ME was your cup of tea just kept extending lwop (as many did). & LWOP in 2010s with 3000 hours more time on 767 would have resulted in much quicker journey to LHS overseas Or just stayed with QF in whatever position At the very least now you would have the best trips as a QF WB FO , getting paid way more & working way less than you are now 15 years "Major International Airline" well if it was CX you would have been in RHS - not a bad gig but fairly same same (then they started amending contract). If SQ local contract & all expats got flung 2016 If ME3 , well likely at least 3 to 5 years until LHS , then the guys over there started changing everything. Bunk time not counted as flight time & 24 hour stop after 14 hour flight (QF/BA / Americans anyone decent ) all getting at least 48 hours rest. The rosters must have been brutal and incredibly fatiguing - just so far off "best practice" its not funny Joining United at best mid wave of the hiring cycle , say mid 50s on a NB . How does a mid 50s chap manage to get a greencard - US citizenship whatever ? Sure you might be able to upgrade quickly to lhs (NB only) but your rosters will be very poor for a number of years - permanent reserve. & If you want to go to WB sure can do , but you will be on permanent reserve for years (reserve is not "shared" like QF LH) . Ever seen a youtube about United LH guys sitting in hotels (expensive) in NYC waiting for a callout - it looks absolutely miserable . & remember if there is recession the US majors do not hesitate to furlough, this has happened twice this century & people are often flung for years So sure I agree with you entirely that you cannot compare flying with a major in Australia V USA. Years of permanent reserve & the threat of furlough for at least 5 years & the company pissing your pension up against the wall Vs no compulsory redundancies for 50 years & good rosters from day 1. As you say it ain't a competition I suspect you were the only 767 FO who resigned in 2005/2010 period & I don't think any of your fellow QF joiners would swap your career path It was EBA 6/7 back then btw QF could fill all ML vacancies with Americans from US Majors if they wanted & they know that |
Well that was a bit of a ramble. Can you summarise that for us?
|
If the "story" is true I would think this guy really timed things very poorly (& granted none of us are Nostrodamus)
QF LH is a good deal , if Australians feel it is beneath them & don't want it plenty of others will You could fill the annual ML vacancies with Kiwis if you wanted or ADF/RNZAF pilots out of ROSO or Americans (E3 equivalent) or Brits (haven't we just done a deal on extended work visa) or Canadians |
What are you talking about?
|
The career path of Verbal Kint (is that some kind of play on words )
His previous posts seemed to indicate he worked for CX , each to their own perhaps the guy just wanted to live in HK Easy to put s*** on QF ML when in reality it would seem that he would have been way way better off staying there, the brass for based DE CX FOs was pretty ordinary back then. Assuming that was entry point - then it would have been the joyous experience of going back to SO Then contract change after contract change in the 2010s , finally with the COS18 |
Originally Posted by Makiko
(Post 11487534)
The career path of Verbal Kint (is that some kind of play on words )
His previous posts seemed to indicate he worked for CX , each to their own perhaps the guy just wanted to live in HK Easy to put s*** on QF ML when in reality it would seem that he would have been way way better off staying there, the brass for based DE CX FOs was pretty ordinary back then. Assuming that was entry point - then it would have been the joyous experience of going back to SO Then contract change after contract change in the 2010s , finally with the COS18 I joined as a COS99 DEFO. My 1st Yr pay was notably better than 7th Yr pay as a 767 FO in my final year at QF. Still based in Oz. Different story for later DEFOs on COS08. I’ve been well ahead financially at every turn than had I remained in QF ML, except for the few months on COS18 before I left HK. And I did my command on the 330/350 about the same time I could have had first available command in QF (737 in PER …… ). At the time I left, QF had gifted EBA-D to JQ Intl. LWOP wasn’t yet an option, so the ME3 holiday wasn’t a thing. You need to update your knowledge of conditions at the US Majors. Pensions haven’t been a thing here since the early 2000’’s except for FedEx/UPS. It’s a 401(k) now. 2nd Yr and beyond the majors all pay waaayy more than ML. I’m in my 40’s (not 50’s) and can hold any widebody FO slot (except IAH) or NB CA in any base. All much bigger $$ than widebody FO at QF. So you reckon I should have stayed? And that’s not even considering the professional aspect of working outside the sheltered world of Oz! |
As I said first sentence its always the same old story
Look at how well I played it & won at all corners & at all times I wasn't aware of any DE FO HK based in 06 , there were some DEFO based in Australia - but nothing special regarding money, sure above Virgin but way below QF mainline . HK was via SO route at that point in time Skeptical that you claim got to LHS , timelines just aren't long enough If you had got to 330/350 LHS why leave ? Why be asking about $100K Careflight jobs at that point in time ? (circa 2018) If you joined QF in 1999 you would have got at 737 LHS in Perth around 2010/12. You just said that you achieved a 330/350 LHS same time you would have got a LHS 737 at QF. This doesn't make any sense 1. The 350 wasn't even flying at that point in time (was it ?) 2. CX joiners 05/10 typically 14 years to a LHS So joining CX in 06 that would have meant best chance LHS in 2020 (or at absolute best 2019) These "stories" are always the same , I played it smarter than everyone else & I earned more money& I earned more money & I earned more money than anyone else You were not earning the same money as an Aussie based CX DEFO as a 7th year QF 767 FO - didn't happen & if you are a United NB FO you are now earning significantly less than you would have if you had stayed at QF But its a free world & people are entitled to change employers as they see fit You sure must have been a very youngish king air pilot (24/25) to have accomplished all since 1999 & now still be in your 40s. Almost like a prodigy of some note The stories are always the same Also you cannot hole NB LHS in any base - stop telling stories You may be able to hold LHS at the Junior 2 or 3 bases (Detroit is just lovely) & on permanent reserve there . That is why the NB FOs at US majors don't bid for LHS - its a nightmare , as similar to perpetual reserve for 5/7 years as a WB FO, hunkering down in NYC or ORD paying your own way at a hotel Sure there is good brass available at US majors but you are playing furlough (redundancy ) roulette for the first 5 to 8 years of your career & if you get allocated WB FO from school house , you are on permanent reserve for years (possibly can transfer to NB after freeze). So rewards there , but its a much tougher game & in any case is not available to Australian citizens. The number flying for US majors wouldn't reach double figures |
Makiko,
Wrong again: 1. First CX DEFO’s joined Jan 07, on COS99. My 1st group certificate from CX showed 173K. My last from QF showed 156K. By my math, that’ s less. 2. Interest in Careflight was due a dying parent back home. Irrelevant to present discussion. Nice try ;) 3. Joined QF at 25. Youngish, but not unusual. The guy immediately above me took first available command on the 737 in 2017 (PER). Same time I upgraded at CX …. 4. CX got their first 350 in June 2016. Look it up. Upgrade time came down to 10.5 +/- due Airbus deliveries/777 SFO’s not wanting to fly it. 5. You clearly have no idea about upgrade times here. As of Aug 15th we have 123 unfilled NB CA slots. I can hold any of them. I think you have your airlines mixed up 🧐. 6. No idea about hunkering down at crash pads as I dont have to do it! 6. NB CA here pays upwards of 300K USD/Yr. Enlighten me what fleet/seat pays that at QF 23 years in? And I’m talking 3 Yr in here. No comparison. |
Originally Posted by Verbal Kint
(Post 11486535)
Unfortunately T&C’s in Australia have gone nowhere. The reasons why have been discussed elsewhere (lack of a strong over-arching union, small industry & therefore lack of options etc … ).
But for a simple comparison, as a 2nd year narrowbody FO here I’ll earn over 300K AUD + 17% direct retirement contribution. Not including per diems of course 😄. As with most things in life though, your mileage may vary! |
Originally Posted by LostWanderer
(Post 11487631)
Thats really great and all but UA/DL/AA are also very, very quick to pull the furlough trigger and take major contract concessions when the economy hits a speed bump. You could very easily end up unemployed for years as has happened many times in the past to a lot of pilots at the big 3 in the US. Apart from the COVID fiasco, QF I would argue is a more stable career prospect than United or the others in an unstable economic world.
As with most things in life though, your mileage may vary! |
I think Qantas has changed the conversation with what happened during Covid, now they have used the provision to stand pilots down on no pay I would not be surprised to see it used again.
|
Originally Posted by Ollie Onion
(Post 11487777)
I think Qantas has changed the conversation with what happened during Covid, now they have used the provision to stand pilots down on no pay I would not be surprised to see it used again.
I don’t think QF have made a pilot compulsory redundant since the early 70s, can’t say the same of the US carriers. The positives and negatives of US carriers vs QF have been well spoken about on this thread - at the end of the day most Australians would want to reside in their home country and be closer to family and friends, so overall the number of Australians who choose a career in the US would be a minority. |
You have more faith in Qantas Management than I do.
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