Originally designed with a flight engineer but changed prior to certification.

Yep, the alternate gear extension cables located under a floor panel behind the CPTs seat were a legacy of this. Originally intended to be operated by an FE. At some point early on an electric actuator was fitted beneath this panel to operate these cables removing the need for manual operation.

Snakecharma is correct.
767 was originally designed as a 3 person flight deck - but late in the development program the FAA released a report that 2 crew was just as safe as 3 crew, assuming the crew work load was properly addressed. Boeing was already working on a 2 crew 'option' - after the FAA report was released the launch customers all elected to adopt the 2 crew option (basically implementing EICAS and deleting the engineer's station).
The first half dozen or so 767s were originally built with 3 crew flight deck - and the very first 767 (VA001) flew with the 3 crew flight deck. The others were retrofit to the 2 crew configuration prior to delivery - no 3 crew 767s were ever delivered, and VA001 was eventually retrofit to 2 crew. VA001 was never delivered but used a test bed for various projects including the initial PW4000, finally getting fitted with a super sensitive infrared sensor to track incoming missiles as part of the work on a missile defense system (aka 'Star Wars).

Interesting statement, considering Ansett had 5 of them!

Were the AN 76's retrofitted to 3 crew post delivery?

Oakape - those were not true 'three crew' flight decks. The three crew flight deck had round dials for the engine indications and no EICAS. That configuration was never certified.
I suspect what was done for Ansett was they ginned up a flight engineers panel with some gauges and instruments on it to make the pilots union happy, but the rest of the flight deck was the 'two crew' configuration.

I wouldn't call a panel with Hydraulics, Electrics, Fuel, Air Con, Pneumatics, etc, on it a 'ginned up flight engineers panel'. Maybe you would or is a case of you don't really know, therefore your use of the word 'suspect'!

See here for a photo -

BOEING 757 & 767: F/E Panel

They were full F/E panels. Not as 'full' as a 747 classic or a 727, but as full as you can get for the modern equipment of the day that was installed. And they were delivered that way from Boeing.


If I remember correctly, the F/E's were in the B767 due to an agreement with Sir Peter Abels that any aircraft with more than 150 passenger seats would have a F/E. While the AFAP were involved, the primary push was from the F/E's union.

Oakape, you are correct that I have no direct knowledge of what was done for the Ansett flight engineer panel.
What I do know, and have direct knowledge of, is that the primary change going from the 3 crew to 2 crew 767 was the incorporation of EICAS (Engine Indication and Crew Alert System). Basically everything that the flight engineer was normally expected to monitor was incorporated into EICAS. Boeing never certified or delivered the 767 without EICAS.
All those gauges and dials on the side panel are redundant to EICAS (I'm assuming most of those switches in that photo were moved to the pilot overhead, but again no first hand knowledge).

Can't remember whether it was my S/O or F/O training, but first sims were done in the Ansett sim in Melbourne. We arrived a little early one night and the sim was still configured in the Ansett mode.
Sim techs came in and simply unscrewed the offending hyd elec etc panels and inserted in their proper place on the roof!
Took no more than 10 minute to change from 3 crew to 2 crew aircraft.
Also sad to see them go, over 13700 hours on type in QF!!!

This makes sense because they were eventually converted back to two crew configuration. I believe that VH-RMD was the most time consuming to do. This could have had something to do with the fact that it was the first one delivered & the others had the wiring in place to move the system's switch units back to the overhead panel.

This fits too, as the Ansett aircraft all had EICAS. You will notice the screen on the F/E's panel in the photo. If I remember correctly, the EICAS messages displayed on the forward panel as well as the F/E's panel. It would seem that all 767's were built for a 2 man operation, but Boeing converted the Ansett ones to a 3 man configuration before delivery. I do remember reading that there was one other 767 built in a 3 man configuration besides the original 5 for Ansett, but I don't know what the background is for that aircraft.

I have heard this as well. I think it might have been RMD.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f44oPPEYCE

There is a good view of the F/E's panel from 25:50 on. Unfortunately nothing of the overhead panel & no sound.

You peaked my curiosity a bit - I didn't know (or at least didn't remember) that Ansett had gotten a flight engineer station. I did recall that the launch customers were all USA operators (United, Delta, and American) and that per the original FAA directions had ordered a 3 crew flight deck. However other operators were at least interested in a 2 crew layout so Boeing was already working on EICAS and the associated changes to make it 2 crew. When the FAA report came out that OK'ed 2 crew, the launch customers all immediately wanted it - even with the 1982 price tag of over $500k (at the time the story was they'd pay that back in less than 2 years). The first 767s were built with 3 crew flight decks (memory says it was the first 7 or 8 off the line). The first 767 to fly - VA001 - had the 3 crew layout throughout the initial 767 flight test program, but the others were all retrofit to 2 crew (before they flew IIRC). VA001 was eventually retrofit to the 2 crew layout after the original 767 flight test program was complete.
I did a little checking - the first 767 for Ansett was l/n 24. I'm guessing they had originally placed the order for a 3 crew 767 - and due to their other agreements decided against paying for the 2 crew upgrade. So Boeing had to come up with a hybrid 3 crew layout for one customer. I'm also guessing much of the 3 crew kit that was removed from those first 767s was re-tasked for the Ansett aircraft.

Operators really liked the 767 - it was clearly better than the competition - at least until the A330 came out - and would fly forever with minimal maintenance (there are a lot of 767s still in service with over 100,000 hours) and was popular with passengers.

It was the F/O's who had nothing to do. The F/E did all the work & the captain made all the decisions. All the F/O had to do was fly. It was the best job around!

As opposed to now, where the F/O does his job, plus that of the F/E.

Proving that the F/E was always redundant on the 767.

Not necessarily. It may prove that F/O's are now overloaded!

Perhaps, but given 29 years of Qantas operations without the F/O being overloaded by the former F/Es role being a major causal issue in any incident then I suspect IsDon is probably closer to the mark. :ok:

I have operated many different types with Flight Engineers over the years. Both in the military and with airlines.

Without exception, the aircraft with Flight Engineers were more complex to operate for no other reason other than they had Flight Engineers. It is clear to me they were the masters at making a straightforward job difficult.

Who could forget the A3 sized log the Flight Engineer (and unfortunately the S/O) completed every hour or so on the B743. It turns out none of the data had been used by Maintenance Watch for years. So why do it?

I was also amused every time a Flight Engineer would sign the fuel paperwork. A 30 second job taking 10 minutes. Which included their own special SG calculation.

The only thing that I flew with an F/E had ignition analysers for the 112 spark plugs, oil transfer pumps and two speed superchargers. You can imagine the meal those guys made of that! That was in the days of smoking cockpits and girlie magazines, both of which were mandatory according to the F/E.

I am pretty happy with an EICAS, and thrilled to leave my sextant at home, too.

Oldie coming up...
 

Until they installed the three speed wiper switch, which tripled the FO's workload! :E

Full respect to the job the FE's did on aircraft that really needed them (ever seen photos of the engineer's position on the B-36? :ooh:), but when I saw the photo of the "B767 engineer's panel" I just got the giggles.