i think his point was about the tentacles (livie) of big business being in collusion with those who purport to represent the working class (howes)

and anyway, who says we have to be like anyone?

Paul Howes speech was nothing more than Dear Livvie's words in an upcoming ALP leader's mouth.

She has found her horse to ride (the hideous sexual thoughts are not intended) and now has her sights set on being First Lady.

She knows nothing about business or aviation but she is clearly a self absorbed and power hungry cow. She wrote Howes' speech and she is going to swing for the fences.

This is just the beginning. And yes, I'm feeling very ill.

The ALP leadership basically panned the speech. So if Livvie had anything to do with Mr Howes speech then it seems she has the midas touch of turning everything to sh#t she associates herself with, including aspiring politicians. :hmm:

When I started at my beloved company the CEO earned $350000 a year. Today he is paid $3,300,000. My pay on the other hand has increased by 3%. To add insult there is now 3 CEO's at Qantas mainline. Yet these people will have you believe that I am the one draining the companies resources. It is a ridiculous arguement. I will be at the middle road whenthere is one. Until then I guess I watch people lose their jobs being paid per week what these people eat and drink on my companies expense accounts at 1 dinner or lunch sitting, making yet another mate in the inner circle richer and richer. Yes there are too many people earning too much money but it's not the workforce.

It's a neo serfdom. I'm just complete speechless at what is going on in Qantas and the world in general. Those at the top, seem to be able to rake in millions for poor performance, and when they leave, they get paid more millions to reward them for the crap they left behind.

SUB: I dont like it but Howes' speech was clever. Hes been unheard of for months - unusual. Shorten has major problems; 'more of the same' leadership, too close to the greens and totally unionised. He has the job (like his predecessors) courtesy of Ludwig. The lot of that cadre are deeply implicated in the AWU mess, which thanks to the highly competent media we all know about in this country has yet to really explode, but it will - even if the court exercise is a whitewash, a Royal Commission will do the job. From TA's perspective, the longer it ticks along the better. Howes is no fool and is not from the left but has (as I said) been very quiet. And he is in a serious (sickening from every angle!) relationship with a skilled and ambitious publicist. Incompetent from an aviation perspective, but she did get a big job. So all of a sudden Howes comes out against the left, the AWU & the Thomson matter (very linked BTW) and puts himself palatably very much towards the centre of Aussie politics. Though I totally disagree with his ideology and the pond he was spawned in he is no fool. In light of Livvie I do not think his speech seperating him from a mountain of ALP poo and his new relationship is a coincidence at all.

I think the possibilities are sickening for aviation and the country, but that is what I think. Id be very interested in Steve P's take as he would know FAR more than me, but I see Livvie wanting the lodge - nice job once Qf is a carcass...

By way of comment, I know quite a few people who I can classify as "seriously rich" and they aren't spending at the moment because they are afraid of what is coming.

I also note the number of fires on luxury yachts and a few other things that suggest that people who know are moving into cash. I am aware of one yacht for which the asking price was $200,000 - sold for $45,000 to put it mildly, the yacht sales business is "slow" and has been for some months. Country property/holiday house sales are also in the same category except for very high end properties in choice locations that will hold their value.

Sunfish,

I have to ask.....WHAT is coming?

Just come to the point.

He's no fool.........
 

Why don't you simply ask this fellow?
V-Jet reckons he's somewhat clever and is no fool. He's even tipping this fellow is on his way to the lodge. The new leader of our nation, with his Year 9 school report in his back pocket. Don't ever let it be said this great country lacks a sense of humour or equal opportunity.
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/i...Hj_cm4aRPKm8sg

What is coming...

My worst doomsday predictions are as follows.

Background....
The AU and US stockmarkets have run hard (US is well above pre-GFC peaks) yet the economy is far worse.
US Dollar is increasing in value despite them still printing money
AU economy has been bleeding manufacturing companies and workers. Wages in mining sector have increased drastically
China has been running a debt fuelled bubble which has pushed housing prices to unsustainable levels

Doomsday...
China sneezes smashing commodity prices.
Follow on impact is Australian mines go bust, infrastructure growth stops, AU dollar falls, too late to save manufacturing, AU share market and housing prices fall, Job losses everywhere

Comrade Piggy Howes and Wirthless marriage is coming - could anything be worse?

40 days of darkness, plague, famine, dogs and cats living together, real wrath of god stuff!

Seriously, unsolved US/world debt and a China bust started by their Real Estate bubble bursting is very much on the cards. Australia has been appallingly governed for the last 7 years - gross waste and now has nothing in the cupboard for the lean times. It could get very ugly.


------
AI: Why did you have to put that horrible face there? My weeties nearly came back up! Then there is the wedding night aaarararrrgggghhhhhh spit!

Interested in the view of mine in relation to Paul Howes? Well I must be careful what I say. We have agreed not to talk about each other after last years court action. I can talk about the topics though.


I didn't watch this press club thing but I read bits and pieces. This idea of a grand compact between companies, Govt and unions is an absolute crock. It is well know that politics has nothing to do with ethics, democracy or fairness, it is all about numbers.


I look at the numbers in this proposed "compact" - Libs and Companies v's unions. 2 versus 1. You lose. We will get absolutely shafted under such an arrangement. Add to that the comments about some workers in Aus being paid too much and you can work out where it leads.


I've not seen one union person support the views espoused by Howes the other day. Maybe it matters not when the hounds you run with have the numbers in parliament.

I believe that is the correct term. . .:eek:

Whilst I am a little un-easy with his relationship with Hotlips, I have had a read of the speech he had delivered and, leaving emotion aside, some of what Major Burns said did make sense.

Re Major Burns:)
I saw that speech as nothing more than an attempt to get the two sides of his wedding to speak to each other:) In a broader sense a deliberate push to 'appear' different - if not more 'centre' than BS (the pants man and sweeper of things under the carpet) to the general electorate.

And I suspect that push would be helped by Hotlips, who I see as a disgrace in Coward St, but would be even worse than the Ranga in the lodge - IMHO.

Are you able to comment on that Steve? No worries if you can't, but Major Piggy Burns clearly (IMHO) wants BS's job, and no doubt Hotlips (the thought makes me ill still) would not need much persuasion to assist her moving her personal soiree's from Hangar 96 to Kirribilli House. And would you be able to comment on whether you think Hotlips (yuck!!:(:() might have had a hand in the writing of a speech that was, as you say, not a serious Unionist manifesto?

---
AI: I would rather use a telescope to look at the sun than see your post again!

Howes is political poison after the job done on KRudd, he does not have the numbers and would never be able to lead the ALP to the treasury benches. There are others being groomed for that job.

He's done....
 

WTF is being debated here????????
Its better to be thought the fool than known it......
The monkey pilot is now known.
How's monkey pilot going to do this, how's monkey pilot going to do that?
The top end are considering medical attention for the side slitting bullsh1t this imbecilic uneducated fool recently served up.
The quickest way to feel like Einstein is to surround yourself with idiot. Those idiots then convince you that you are an intellectual giant because they don't understand a word you say. Welcome to the the real arena monkey boy. We are all watching.....Um, um, um......just like the real PM.
You know the boys are in town when the tax office is shedding jobs. You can bet departure preference will be given to the company and corporate watchdog area. Wouldn't you think now is the time to hire tax collectors to go after the silver tongue dogs who have been dining on our taxes for ever.
Pack away what you have, cause these monkeys are about to pull the rug out......


Australian Tax Office offers 500 voluntary redundancies as it sheds jobs - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Can you please publish ACTUAL figures to prove this. I ask this question because what I am hearing lately from people in the mining industry is, not only is it shrinking at a VERY rapid rate, but the pay per hour is not rising at all, let alone very fast. That is what I am hearing, blind me with the facts.

I noticed that Qantas are advertising for a couple of QA orientated people to be involved with compliance involving flight ops. Curious to know what kind of salary these jobs pay roughly. PM me if you don't want to post here. Could be worth re-educating, for a rainy day if I lost my medical.......

I imagine that these kinds of jobs would be safe as banks and would be the last to go once the stumps were ripped out, hard to send the jobs off shore.

I have to put up with political BS on the TV, mt book face news feed from various friends, online media and the ABC. it'd be really nice if we could get back to discussing the issues affecting Qantas than the quasi new world order conspiracy theory BS that this thread has become recently

Virgin Atlantic pulled out of Sydney - Hong Kong because they aren't a hub airline like Cathay and the Gulf Airlines. They have the same problem as Qantas. Cathay can fly you all over their network from Sydney via a stop in Hong Kong where as Virgin Atlantic could only offer London.

Europe - Australia is high cost, low yield, the airlines based at either end can't compete with the enroute hubs offering one stop multiple destination options. Middle Eastern and Asian Airlines enjoy significant cost advantages with aviation friendly governments and employer favorable employment laws.

A business class return ticket London - New York is the same price as London -Sydney but is one third of the distance with no enroute stop.

Aviation is seeing a transformation in the way people fly long haul, only a few routes such as Sydney - Los Angeles and Europe - US East coast are safe from enroute hub operators for the moment. EK and SQ would love to get SYD - LAX and it could happen if the government decided more competition was needed.

That's the only sensible thing posted on this thread in a while. I thought I had logged onto PCRuNe by mistake.

An interesting article on Virgin Atlantic, that has relevance to QF performance

Virgin on the final retreat from our skies

"it'd be really nice if we could get back to discussing the issues affecting Qantas than the quasi new world order conspiracy theory BS that this thread has become recently"

These are the issues that effect QF. Like it or not, there are plenty of astute economic analysts warning of impending financial calamity. Was the GFC a conspiracy? The first person to predict the GFC is now saying the GFC was nothing compared to whats coming next.

Lets revisit this debate in 18 months and see where the world is then.

CCA and Qantas: Authors of their own misfortune

The idea that Joyce and co have stuffed it up is gaining traction.

Economics and is impact on Qantas I can live with. Class warfare, NWO conspiracies and other associated BS I despise.

Has anyone seen or heard from Alan in the last month or so?

Keg it ain't conspiracy. Everyone I know is digging their metaphorical bomb shelter as we speak.

I agree. Times are tough and they may be about to get tougher but to attribute these things to a PM who is only interested in class warfare or to a cabal of faceless NWO super capitalists as some on here have tried to do over the last couple of pages is the thing that irritates me.

He was at the news campus opening and did speak. So he has been sighted

Keg, read The Network of Global Corporate Control , there is a pdf copy of the paper on that page.

You have set up a classic false dilemma (simplistic two choices, conspiracy or no conspiracy). The situation is much more subtle & nuanced.

Each and everyone of us is in a conspiracy to manipulate our environment to some end- you as the Captain manipulate & conspired with your fellow pilot, ATC, groundstaff, passengers to some end, usually the safe & efficient conduct of a flight to a schedule.

What would human existence look like if we did not conspire to manipulate our environment? Even the stone age technologies (group hunting & tool manufacture) required individuals to conspire to manipulate their environment.

But I would have to ask the obvious philosophical question as to why there would not be a motivation to exert increasing control of the resources (human and non-human) & environment around oneself? Is this not a basic human trait, to manipulate our environment in an effort to gain mastery & control of it?

Is this desire to manipulate & control the world around us ever satisfied at some wealth or power level? Is there ever some target end point to the acquisition of wealth & power? You personally may be satisfied at certain levels, but can you speak for every other human?

Paraphrasing, you ask the question why, I ask the question why not?

From the linked article: http://www.plosone.org/article/fetch...entation=PNG_M

CONSPIRACY

1. An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act.
2. A group of conspirators.
3. Law An agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime or accomplish a legal purpose through illegal action.
4. A joining or acting together, as if by sinister design: a conspiracy of wind and tide that devastated coastal areas.

To call the act of two pilots working together, using clearly defined SOPS to achieve an also clearly defined outcome, namely the safe transport of people and cargo from A to B an act of conspiracy is absurd.

Of course, there were multiple shooters on that grassy knoll and Sept 11 was orchestrated by the US government.

The **** some people believe is worthy of a scientific study in its own right!

Lets get real people.

"Act in concert" then. The word conspire has evolved lately to include broad non-criminal agreement. The doctrine of common usage allows for the benign definition. Hence the phrase "criminal conspiracy" to distinguish the two.

Are you always so literal?

If you redefine the word CONSPIRACY, to mean acting in concert, then everything and anything we do with other people in this world can be termed an act of conspiracy.

Performing ones legal duty would no longer be an act within a duty of care but an act of conspiracy...... so what?

Having sex would no longer be an act of natural biological instinct but an act of conspiracy........ so what?

In its current definition when one talks of a conspiracy it raises eyebrows.

The way you choose to use it,the word conspiracy within any meaningful context, becomes impotent and obsolete.

Am i always so literal?

No mate just sensible........ unless of course you choose to redefine sensible.

In any event, what has all of this to do with Qantas?

Bang on. This thread is no longer useful given these recent ramblings.

Aint no conspiracy, just dumb and dumber at the helm, happens a lot in the corporate world.

Nuff said.

Precisely - that is exactly what I was saying. As I said, it is much more subtle and nuanced than a binary choice. People work 'breathe together' (see below) together to achieve an end all the time. The ends may be criminal, evil or even noble.

No redefinition of the word is required. It is from the Latin to 'breathe together', in English it has always meant to "work together" for a purpose. My definition of the word conspire is based on the Oxford English Dictionary (OED), 1888 - online copy available at archive.org - and the actual file is HERE (large file 250+M).

But if you want to go on trust, page 871:



But that is the word definition game, my point still stands, to simply label the world in the binary view that things are a either a conspiracy or a non-conspiracy is totally meaningless - impotent exactly as you state. All of us are working to pursue our own ends & happiness, and that usually means working in concert with others.

As to the morality, ethics, nobility or legality of the deeds and ends such working produces is a different argument. It may be perfectly legal to conspire ('breathe together') with others to cut a workers pay , and pass those saving directly to a manager or owner. Is that evil, ethical or noble? Does it not depend upon which point it is viewed & by whom?

Of course people work together to maximise benefit to themselves, quite often at the expense of someone else [zero sum game]. Labelling that process as some crackpot "conspiracy theory" is the error that I am pointing out. It is totally redundant & meaningless as you state, that is exactly my point. Because it is so self evident, we all do it most of the time. It is the essence of being human, to work with others, both for good & evil.

The term "conspiracy theory" has been co-opted to be used as a term to denigrate others by the modern media to shut opposing views. Remember, the NSA/Britain/Australia/Canada/NZ spying on virtually every electronic communication the entire planet generated, was, until 6 months ago another theory that should be dismissed as it was another crank "conspiracy theory". People who pointed out the obvious clues where howled down as nutters. The term "conspiracy theory" has become a very power piece of propaganda conditioning that has be used to suppress the flow of information that the wealthy and powerful deem dangerous to their pursuit of their ends.

To the posters out there trying to impress everybody with their vast knowledge of the English language. Here's a piece of mine in plain everyday English ...... Please get the fhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...s/censored.gifk back on topic !!!


McHale.

McHale
 

Hear Hear !


You beat me to posting much the same by a few minutes but you are so right.




BACK TO THE :mad: TOPIC PLEASE !

FERRIS, Interesting read, claiming $120mill pumped into Jet* asia along with the share buyback shortly followed by a big profit warning.

To me it looks like either the board were not paying attention to the cashflow, or something else was going on.

It's the year of expiring EBA's and the Libs in power so anything is possible I guess (IMHO).